Ryanair AGAIN!!!
 

Ryanairs latest pay deal offer at STN is a deal worse than last years rejected pay deal.The twist this time is that they have the "in pocket "unelected pilot group of 3 take last years document from management with the dates scratched out and are now proposing it as our(the pilots) proposed document.very very amateurish and laughable,if it were not for the fact that these 3 bozo's are lining their pockets at the expense of co-pilots and trainees.hang your head in shame, you 3 scumbags.
The overwhelming vote against this supposed pay deal last year did not suit you and management,so now they have you do their dirty work for them.you do not even have the brqains between the 3 of you,to make out your own proposal.Such guts that only one of the three idiots was idiot enough to put his signature to it.
how do pilots,get to accept/reject this deal.By writing a letter of support along with a photocopy of their i.d. saying that we supprot you.will there be a democratic vote.NO.because you cannot win that way.
all ryanair pilots,reject this ploy to drive your terms and conditions further down the pan.stand up and be counted or lie down and be mounted.

I will be voting yes for the following reasons, I have been in BALPA for all my flying career but most of the F/Os I fly with are not so I cannot see us getting union recognition.
£5,000 pa towards pension
£5,000 pa allowance in lie of loss of licence etc
Flight pay of £24 per hour instead of the present block system which would have given me an extra £2000 pa over the last two years.
A stable five on four off roster with no loss of leave
+ 10.4% over four years
I know the company could take any of this away but they could also take away existing allowances.
I will still be lobbying for union recognition but if ever it happens at least we will be starting negotiations from a higher baseline.

Take it away they will.Refer to final clause.Should the company be forced to recognise any union or pilot association,the "deal" will revert to 2000 agreement.you will not be starting negotiaitons from a HIGHER BASELINE".that is about the only thing you can rely on from this farce of a document.
also remember that signing a letter of support for the erc is not you getting what is in this document.rather you signing to support the erc's submission of this document(initially formulated by management and rejected by the overwhelming pilot body).this will be the initial negotiation position,no guarantees that you are going to get anywhere near this supposed great deal.wake up and smell the coffee.this is but a further attempt to push pilot terms and conditions down the pan. see that you are a captain and will take 24 quid an hour.have a good look at how lining your pockets will affect others.
ask yourself the question,why do you think most f/o's not in balpa(a suggestion which i know to be wrong)?is it because thay are consistently shat upon by management and colleagues alike,and see nought but bad example.maybe you should try to convince them that they should be in balpa and not incorrectly assuming that they are not.you will regret signing up to this and you know it,but you feel helpless,you are not!

Should we get union recognition and Ryanair try to withdraw anything we will have the legal right to withdraw our labour - something that would bring the company to it's knees in a very short time.
At STN we have a huge number of F/Os, most days I fly with someone that I've never seen before and I always ask if they are in BALPA - to my huge disappointment the vast majority are not.
Therefore what the ERC is asking us to vote for is preferable to the 2% we have now.

bring them to their knees. your kidding yourself. How many people do you think that we have flying for us are now contract pilots. the plan is to churn out as many low cost contract pilots as possible and undermine the industry in doing so. Guys, you know the deal here. it ain't going to get any better unless people decide they want to make a difference. If you are new to the company and are unsure, just look at the history of the negotiations and ask yourself this, is it realy about what they are offering or is it more important that as a body of pilots you are able to say yes or no to changes in your working conditions and be heard.
I would say that this is the entire weight of the debate, once this hurdle is crossed then everything else will have it's place.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I shall be voting yes. Why? Because it is a pay rise, although not large. The sector pay system is overall better (for Captains admittedly) Five on Four off is much better.
Would I vote FOR union recognition. The answer is yes but not yet. RYR Pilot force is too diverse with many nationalities, Contractors and Permanent. Also the main reason is the Companies continued expansion. Whilst this happens there are too many opportunities for promotion. Even the Cadets just starting will have Commands in Four to Five years, folks will not want to put there head above the parapet.

Gander
 

Hey Grim Repa,

I'm just joining Ryanair but don't have access to any info from inside ryanair nor do I have my crewnumber to register with REPA. I was wondering if you could tell me where I could find/read this deal you are talking about.
Is this something happening in STN only or is that basically what can be expected at any other base in the UK/Europe.
Surprise, I also don't know what airport I'll be based at.
(off topic, where is a cadet likely to be based out of anyway?)

Any info very much appreciated.

JFA.

Jet Fuel Addict,

What is being discussed here relates solely to STN. You have to be on the RYR payroll (i.e. not a contractor) and based at STN on the 10th of December to be eligible to have you say.

NB this is on BASIC so it equals a MISERABLE !% PER YEAR!

Additionally:
No increase on flight pay in the deal at all.
Punitive measures if you miss a message from your base captain and don't respond within 48 hours of a LOSS of 1 Months 'allowance'.
A further loss of 1 Months allowance if you don't drive into work to say you are sick if you happen to be sick.
Probably illegal punitive measures if Union recognition is achieved.

Sign up for this 'deal' and you are dealing with the devil.

There are, it has to be said, some real gems in the ERC's proposal. The following are just a sample of my favorites:

- '.......limit the increase in TRE allowances to £4,920. The ERC are confident that these changes are the minimum required to achieve a positive response from the company.'

A positive response from the company!! Get stuffed you tw@t! You should be asking for a bloody pay increase, not a further pay decrease! That would be the minimum expected of you! Why would anyone in their right mind propose a pay decrease? Moron:ugh:

- 'After the recent developments in DUB it has become clear to the ERC that a significant proportion of the STN pilots wish to open discussions on a 2008 deal.'

So who are this 'significant proportion'? I certainly wasn't asked, I don't think I've ever seen the ERC at STN. They don't represent me and never will, they were elected to begin with, but I think it's safe to say that they have lost the plot and should be relieved of their posts. And why has there never been another election? Surely they weren't elected as the ERC For Life!?

- '...the company made clear that an early 2008 settlement would be of little benefit to the company, and that the current commercial environment requires a wage restraint.'

So, I gather from this last statement, regarding the meetings held between the ERC and FR management, that they tell you what they want and the ERC just laps it up, bending over backwards to accomodate the company and shaft themselves and everyone else in the process. I can't believe that the ERC would just take this at face value, OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING TO SAY THAT YOU IMBECILES, THEY'RE MANAGEMENT!! And all this because a small group of pilots want a miniscule payrise, whilst all the FO's and SO's take a pay cut.

Excuse me when I say F**K OFF! (There is no emoticon for what I'm feeling!)

I say 'fair play' to our reps. At least they have the courage to go up against the management.

The reason they are still there is because no other bugger is prepared to put his head above the parapet and do the job.

It has always been seen as a poison chalice the STN ERC job.

I know one rep very well and the idea of him lining his pockets at the expense of others is complete tosh.

As for their mandate I was one of the 50 pilots that turned up at the meeting in May that said go back to the Company and try get a deal on the table unlike the other 300 who could not be bothered to get off their backsides and turn up.

Thats always been the problem with our pilots sadly they are appathetic and lethargic.

If you think you could do better have a go I know one ERC rep would be happy to hand over the reins.

So put up or shut up.

sc**w you "say mach number".they are not our reps.they are not elected by the pilot body and only represent the companys' interests in negotiations.since may of this year they have been meeting with the management in secret.however,during all this time.no pilot has been notified or asked for consultation on their future.no pilot meeting because they got their ass kicked at the last one.there is no doubt that as captains,tres and trainers they stand to gain substantially at the acceptance of this deal,while !!!!ting on the lower ranks.
they have NO mandate and if they want to hand over the reins,why have they not done so to date.not under any pressure are they?possibly afraid that whoever took over might not make it so lucrative for them.why are they so prolific at lying to the pilot group in their latest diatribe?why is the negotiaition of the deal preceeded by a farce where the pilots have to sign their authorisation to the erc to negotiate on their behalf.
If you want the deal "say mach number",off you go crawling on your hands and knees and sign up for it.will be listening to you bitching during the summer,how you were screwed over.
i take you include yourself in the lethargic and apathetic,or are you a level above us plebs,along with the unelected and illegal three benedicts?

ladies and gents

a possibly little known fact....according to their predecessor AG the company pays extra for erc reps to be, ...well, ....erc reps. nice little earner eh?

the management are so desperate now.that they have resorted to posting a letter to crew on the internal mail(scrrewdock) full of falsirties and propoganda.it states how better of you will be by signing up to thew deal.trying to convince us now that we cannot have an opinion and we cannot add and subtract.stick it where the sun don't shine,bunch of tossers!

Of course the ERC reps get paid. Its £500 per year before tax. I am surprised anybody does it for that considering the grief and hassle thay get and also surprised you didnt know that chaps. You dont relly think you would do it for nothing. I say pay them more. It isnt a secret you know. I even thought about going for ERC rep at the last elections and I was told then. Sorry did i say elections. Oh yes that thing that everyone forgets happened. They happened i voted in them and my man got in. I chose not to stand thank God look at the grief you get.

And as for the letter clarified several things. Got my vote. I know which ERC rep penned most of it and it had sweet fa to do with the company.

say mach number - when were the erc elected?what was their term of office to be?and what are the rules regulating the use of erc's negotiating on others behalf without proper consultation.

"look at the grief you get" - thats what you get for playing god with other peoples lives.

the letter was penned by the management and it is well known.anyhow enjoy !!!!ting on your colleagues below you.your turn will come!

Firstly the pilots are elected by the pilot force. There was an election held and pilots put there name forward and it was voted on democratically. That was 2 years ago in STNs case. By rights its normally a one year position. However 2 years ago the a pay deal was put in front of the pilots by the Company that was truly awful. The ERC stated at the time no meaningful negotiation took place and to Vote NO. I think it was universally felt the ERC had made the right noises to vote No and so they stayed on. 1 year later and a substantially better pay deal was on the table and the ERC seemed to do ok for us but there was ground swell of opinion that BALPA/REPA were coming in and they told everyone vote NO. However BALPA/REPA have been completely anonymous since the NO vote in April. People have run out of patience. A similiar deal is back on the table this time the ERC have said go for it take the money and better time off and still go for the union route if you want but at least you have a better roster and more cash in your mits while we wait for BALPA/REPA to get its act together. If they ever do.

you are wrong,the erc elections were over 4 years ago.it was not democratic and there was no independent oversee.i think the pilots also elected repa reps.maybe that doesn't count though as it wasn't ryanair democratic.don't come on here spinning me your bs buddy.what was the result of the election?
glad to see you can now acknowledge that the erc is illegal and out of term.along with being paid by the company to be reps.sounds like a real mugabe set up to me.shouldn't make any difference though eh!!wink!wink!
BALPA/REPA have not been anonymous.au contraire,it is the pilot body who has been anonymous for the last year.BALPA have an office in STN for fr pilots,but they are too AFRAID to be seen going there.
There has never been NEGOTIATIONS in fr.do not confuse being told what you are getting and f*ck off if you don't like it as negotiations.
well they got your vote,pity you cannot see the mug they are taking you for!
people have run out of patience alright with the numbnuts in the "yes,yes,yes" or is the "me,me,me" camp.surprised if some of these clowns even read what they are signing up to.company will most likely rig the DEMOCRATIC process to help the "me" camp along.

I cant give you the exact date but GB,MC,PM or TO'R will prob know as they stood and i voted. It would have been when AG stood down I think 2 years ago.

I think I have been to 3 or 4 ERC meetings in that time and To'R before resigning put a questionnaire in the pigeon holes and got a good response if i remember him. Over 100 replied with their wish list.

And the ERC went armed with that to the Company.

Maybe you havent been the Company long enough to remember that GR.

Also I hate to burst your bubble but I know the letter was penned by the ERC. One in particular because I was round at his house having a cup of tea while he punched away on his computer. The only involvement the Company had was that it was sent to PB to go on Crewdock.

I know you want to believe something else but thats the facts.

Any way lets just hope we can get all pilots together one year before i retire in 20 years and agree on a way forward. To much bitching and not enough action.

Thanks for that reply say mach number.
Is it true that this substantially improved pay deal results in a rise of below the RPI inflation rate,effectively reducing STN ryanair salaries?

Payrise in the first year for most co-pilots about 8%
Capts will be about average 13%

Over 4 years Co-pilots 8 + 3 + 2 + 2 = @15% not compounded

Capts 13 + 3 + 2 + 2 = @20% not compounded

These figures will be disputed. I got my calculator out unlike some.

Am happy to stand corrected if someone can show otherwise. I can show my calculations.

The problem is that for the co-pilots they are taking a cut in sector pay and that clouds most thinking on this subject but they have a net gain due to big increases as a % of their salary in other areas.

Standing by for the INCOMING!! from GR

we will agree to disagree.3 or 4 erc meetings in over two years(i say 4).2 meetings with management since may.top class representation.look at the history and that is all you need in this company.you going down buddy.just that the pilots below will soften your landing by absorbing the !!!!ty end of the deal.if that is good with you,well you probably have signed half a dozen of us up already.
hope the erc/management typist gave you a few choccy bics with your cuppa to sweeten the taste of the !!!! you were swallowing.you will be used to it soon.
well good to see that you are as fantastical with your figures as you were when working on the management letter produced today.
lunacy,lunacy,lunacy.lets see your calculations,here and now.not holding my breath.
15% and 20%,you have lost the plot cochise.

the co-pilots take a cut in sector pay,that would cloud ones judgement.why don't the captains take a sector pay cut.sorry you are one and the erc are all captains and it is the least that the company will accept.how silly of me thought you guys were representing all the pilots.

calculator malfunction????that big shiny calculator.

Is the vastly improved contract offer better than RPI inflation,or is it an effective pay cut?

still waiting for all those figures.mrsofty it is below rpi and a pay cut combined.let's see what the calculator has to say!

I still say get in the Union - strange your thinking. I am in BALPA have been for 12 years and have no intention of leaving BALPA and I will be there voting for them if it ever gets that far. But I do not see how the acceptance of this deal prevents the BALPA thing happening. If anything it puts the Union in a position of strength for two reasons.

1. If the Company f**k with this deal that will def be the final straw and the pilots will pour into BALPA.

2. And if BALPA are in and the Company f**k with the deal at least we will have right to 'withdraw our labour' and putting more pressure on the Company.

Am waiting for it to happen but hopefully waiting for it on a 5 on 4 off roster and a few extra quid.

Will show you mine if you show me yours!!

yes,but when will they renege on the deal and what will they do in the interim.what will the market for pilots be like when they renege on the deal,as they will.pilots have an out now and are in a buoyant stage of the cycle.i tell you,when their is nowhere to go and no association to turn to,woe betide the pilot in ryanair,under the current regime.
!!!!ting on our colleagues continually for small short term gain is wrong,wrong,wrong!and until this kind of behaviour stops.unity cannot be achieved.i would rather be sitting in the !!!! together than disparate and accepting scraps from a bunch of bullies and cowards.
When BALPA appears with our mandate and they will,the company has promised to revert the proposed deal to a level below the drivel we are accepting now.i think that will enlighten those who cannot see the error of their actions now.
let us not sell ourselves short once again.

don't wait for it to happen.lead and make it happen!!!

calculator or figures?HA HA!

Prob wasting my time but but for you GR
Take middle rank FO eg J F/O and Line Cpt all figures Gross
Now ---- New deal
J F/O --- Capt
Basic 24,384 - 25,115, 54,888 - 56,535
Hol pay 2,154 - 2,154 , 2,847 - 2,847
Sector pay 28,929 - 24,866 , 34,322 - 36,610
Pension 0 - 2,500, 0 - 5,000
Benefits in Kind 0 - 5,000 , 0 - 5,000
Total 55,466 - 59,455, 92,057 - 105,993
Inc in pay 3,988 -% inc 7.19% , inc 13,935 - inc 15.14%
Sector pay / Hol pay grossed up at appropriated level of tax and NI

If you think they are wrongly will happily stand corrected. Which ones and by how much. Calculations arent difficult they are adjusted for which bracket of tax and NI you are in thats why hols and sector pay gross differ from Capt to Fo and was careful to apply to correct % of pay at the appropriate level as per Inland Revenue web site to get as accurate as poss.

look buddy,i have done the figures over and over and they are nowhere near these.grossing up/grossing down - potatoes/tomatoes!anyone who has read the document knows that it is pathetic pay wise and so riddled with clauses and penalties,that one could sidewind a bus through it!
for example - failure to reply to a base captain query within 2 days will lead to loss of benefits for that month.
look i could go on forever.it is a !!!! deal which stinks to the high heavens and will be ripped apart whenever mol decides that the pilots are getting uppity or he hasn't got his leg over the missus for a few days.the same pilots he expects to sign up to his wonder deal.
why as a matter of interest do we have to give you/erc the authorisation to negotiate on our behalf if as we suspect the result is pre ordained,the document we are supposed to propose came from the company and if as previously stated by your good self the erc were "democratically" elected and have our mandate.surely it is not for the company to use as proof of erc legitimacy in the company,for januarys upcoming pilots versus company intimidation case in ireland.
if fr management gave me a gold bar,i would chuck it in the bin.no question,without even looking at it.because sure as nuts is nuts.these scumbags will try to screw us over.
how do you know that a ryanair manager is lying?his lips are moving!
what will a newly promoted captain earn,90% of an existing captains salary.why is that say mach number.is it the least the company will accept or is it market forces at work.!!!! sorry you are already a capt tre,so you have most to gain from this deal.what's it like to pick the co-pilots pocket,while not even having to face him.
when will we have the meeting to consult with the pilot body.shucks,the deal has been pre approved by management.
does any of this make sense to you,my democratic friend?i can ping pong figures with you all month long but the company needs the deal approved by year end,why is that?oh yeah that court case in january.
i should call micheal moore,he could make a movie out of ryanair?he could call it - GIPPO!

Point taken. If only Michael Moore would.

good night say mach number!UNITY!!!

Good night GR. I know we have a difference of opinion but at least we engage and have an opinion. If only more were prepared to engage in the process there may be hope.

UP THE WORKERS

If you have the time read the Fragrant Harbour Forum for a direct comparison between Ryanair and Cathay Pacific, unfortunately you will see many similarities, for the ERC read the AOA. :ugh:

early indications are that ryanair have failed to foist their trashy deal upon the pilots.the word now is that they will implement it anyhow.

Didimus: If you have new FACTS, why don't you share them with us on RepaWeb? (is what I meant)

you know very well that only the management stooges have access to propoganda dock.don't be silly!

Nobody knows the result yet not the company or the ERC. They are still awaiting the results from the auditors in Bishop Stortford.