Emirates, are you happy ?
 

I would be interested to know what perception of their working environment, pay, carreer, pleasant compagny to work for ? etc.........you guys have in comparison to European majors.
Thanks for repeating what has undoubtly already been said here, but I wasn't around.

Right on, Bird On.

This could be the best job in the world, but our managers seem intent on preventing that.

If you have a reasonable job in your home country stay there. Four guys have resigned this month alone.

The same can be said for MOST overseas airline crew positions nowadays. The general erosion of pay and conditions has gone on for sometime, 'round about since 1990 or so. The bloom has definately gone off the rose.

As a joinining F/O with a family you can look forward to not saving any money for the first three years at least. Dubai has experienced a 40% increase in cost of living over the past five years. Our salaries were recently increased to a whopping 2% YES, TWO PERCENT. Early commands!? If that is your main motivation, think about it carefully. Three years service and 6000 hours, minimum requirements. Schooling!? Less and less space available for your kids, rapidly becoming a serious problem.

Housing! The biggest joke of them all. Company's official policy is: We will offer you company housing ONCE! If you do not like what we have to offer, then here is an allowance, GO FIND YOUR OWN. YOU WILL THEN HAVE TO PAY FOR EVERYTHING YOURSELF, EVERYTHING! Basically you will have to pay an adittional 20,000 - 40,000 Dhs per annum out of your very average salary to RENT your own place. Just imagine, 20 years service with this company and all that money you forked out over the years went to paying for the rent!!! Wonderfull!!! By the way the company can at anytime they see fit move you out of company housing for what ever reason, offer you a "new place" and if you do not like it! Guess what? Here is the allowance and HAVE A NICE DAY! But 'I am a senior Captain of fourteen years' you might protest!
TOUGH!!!

Basically we do not have anywhere else to go!
And management know this and acknowledge this by their actions and general attitude towards ALL emoloyees. And in many cases we even as employees of this company treat each other with the same contempt and disrespect.

So come and join us, we will show you how to re invent the wheel and teach you how to be more disrespectfull than ever before. Courtesy Respect and Manners is not our strong point!

HAVE A NICE DAY

..... uhm what's that I see approaching from yonder, across the vast desert dunes ? Allah be praised !! it looks to be an Autocamel bearing yet another masterful translation of some recently obtained Alsoran Scrolls with content pertaining to chapter 2 of 'The Caravan'

(see also: The Café Scrolls

Dear 'Check Six.' I wonder what the command prospects would be for somebody joining now as an F/O. I know I would be joining the back of a big list but is there a shortage of people with the required experience for command. I have the 1000hrs+ jet command time. Also, is this a new policy on accomodation to tighten up on people who keep refusing what they are offered first. Thanks in advance from a confused 'high & fast.'

high&fast---
You should know better, ONLY accept a Command if that is what you WANT, provided you have the experience. Do not, under any circumstances, get behind those already there. Direct entry, the ONLY way. It is sure to be offered in future, in spite of what is said by the "junior guys". Especially if they have another incident http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

411A,

There you go team building and making friends again!

Just back from the treadmill. Thanks a lot for sharing your views fellows. I really appreciate.

Is it those nice new villas on Sheik Sayed Road (164?) and the 84 (?) villas you are talking about, or is it the appartments which I haven't seen.
Please explain how EK will house it crews with an explosive expansion untill 2010?
Was it 210 longhaul jets Sheik Maktoum plan to buy. Could it be that there will be chances for basings out of UAE?

Nite Flite

What are the ranges of salaries ? Starting F/O to Captain ?
Do they really have plans to base people out of Dubaï ? And what's life like after work ?
Do they have direct entry Captain given the huge orders they've placed ?

'High and Fast.'

Hello again, I hope all is well!

1) Command. The way it stands is three years and 6000 hrs. If however you have the 1000 hrs command on jets prior to joining, you may have a shot at command a little earlier, although, not by much.

2) Accomodation policy. This is the company's bean counters 'fixing costs.' It is purely an accounting issue. There certainly were people in the past who refused certain standards of housing when the company offered it to them. In most cases those refusals were spot on! One very important aspect of accomodation, is ensuring that your family is satisfied with where they are going to be living for a long time. If they're not happy, pretty soon the euphoria of having joined wears off very quickly.
So now, the company will offer you housing, hoping that you refuse it! There costs towards housing is fixed at 95,040Dhs. For something descent, you need to pay 130,000Dhs and up, per annum. Your salary as an F/O starts at 16,000 Dhs. Of which a minimum of 10,000Dhs per month will go to living expenses in Dubai. Now you pay for car,RENT,water and lights eating out etc.

The 10,000dhs a month is based on an assumption that your family consists of spouse and two kids.

After three years as F/O, your salary will go from approx 17,800 up to 22,200Dhs. First line Captain. You then have another seventeen years ahead of you to reach the current top end scale of 38,400.

Schooling, is becoming very space limited, whether Emirates reserves seats or not,the situation is becoming more and more critical. One kid in school X and kiddie number two in school Y. If there are seats available!!

The time to have joined emirates was from about five years ago and earlier. From a financial point of you, and then again your investment of this money earned as salary had to be shrewd.

Good Luck!

Check Six

Thanks for the reply. As usual a very detailed and informative one. You have certainly helped a number of pilots who are making that difficult decision on whether to leave good jobs in their home country or not. Thanks again.

Regards, high & fast

I had the chance to join EK a couple of years ago. Having spoken to a few mates on the inside who gave very good advice, I stayed put. Sorry to say, their advice appears to have been accurate.

All that glitters is not necessarily gold!

The new villas you refer to are nice looking bricks and mortar, as long as you are lucky enough to get 'the' house without the damp. Nice if you have no kids but if you have small ones there is no place for them to play unless you are prepared to take them someplace in a car. The street isn't an option, dangerous driving or a building site. Of course, if your 4 year old has just had a tantrum....

The new utilities allowance is a joke and if it is anything like the car loan won't rise for the next 10 years. Right now in Jumeriah, 80k DH/year would rent a small 3 bed appartment and the other 15k would cover the utilities. If you are prepared to go off into the GAFA you might get something better.

Dubai offers lots of opportunities for the kids from watersports to ice skating. It is a great place to bring up kids in an outdoor lifestyle with nice weather and a multicultural environment. But there are some drawbacks. Despite what you might be told, crime does exist, it is just not publicised. Several Emirates Villas have been broken into over the last year, some more than once, the rumour is that it is drug related crime. We are not talking about crime on the same scale as other major cities around the world but Dubai is not a totally crime free environment.

Some of the older folks complain that the kids don't get to live in the real world and lots of familys ship them off to the home country to get streetwise when they reach their teens. A night stop in Dhaka can have the same effect.

Primary eduacation actually costs between 18 and about 25,000Dh in the Brit system but much more in the US system. Emirates cover about 19k. The schools are good!

The snag is getting your kids into the schools. They are trying to keep the class sizes down to about 20 but with little success. The order of precedent for entry to JESS, JPS etc goes something like: Older sibling in the school, British Passport, Company debenture, the rest of us.

In the past the companies just bought up more debentures to ensure that their employees kids got in. I understand that the debenture places have dried up. There are some other schools available but the locations generally suck. I know someone who has to send their kids to Sharjah. Were I coming to the interview again, I would ask if there are any school places available for my kids, and where, and whether or not there are any plans for pay to stay even vaguely in line with inflation. If not, family life could start to become a bind and if the family isn't happy....

Don't count on saving anything whilst you are an F/O and consider carefully the fringe benefits that your company offers you. Emirates provident fund is all that is available for the retirees unless they make there own arrangements. It has performed dreadfully (some guys have lost $100k from the fund) in line with the stock market over the last year. There are a lot of companies around the world that still pay final salary pensions for an employees modest 5% contribution. To achieve the same sort of deal here you will have to contribute a significantly larger proportion of your salary (15%ish?). (I read that the some of the UK charters are now paying 1.6%/year of service final salary pension, which if you leave as a training captain is big money for your retirement)

At Emirates, on a good month you will work harder than most other flag carrier long haul airlines but less than short haul or charter. If you are top bid you'll get a decent roster, if you are bottom you'll get a few nice trips to Bombay. C'est la vie! Not bad though. When you make the exulted rank of TCI/TCE they will squeeze every last drop out of you. Just like most places, profits are maximised by running lean on expensive personnel and paying them the least that can be gotten away with. Pilot representation doesn't happen, the only way to vote is with your feet.

The pay has been documented elsewhere, suffice to say that the package is eroding big time in real terms, which is not a good precedent and sucks if the only reason that you want to come to Dubai is for the money.

Hope that helps. Not trying to appear too negative, just a little more balanced. There are lots of good things about living in Dubai but also a few negatives that are sometimes glossed over. Dubai is very good at selling itself and so are Emirates. When folks first arrive everything glitters, nice shiny aircraft etc, and then the truth sinks in. As long as you are not just after cash you'll be ok, but financially at retirement even european charter airlines might offer a better long term deal. There are better places to work but also a lot worse; just make sure you take everything into account before making the leap.

Ghost



[This message has been edited by Ghostflyer (edited 02 June 2001).]

I must start by commending my fellow Emirates pilots on their observations with respect to the continued deteriorating conditions at Emirates and speaking out on this issue. It is refreshing to see the truth emerging from the iron curtain.

I have seen a marked change in attitude towards the treatment of the pilot group over the past few years at this company. While Emirates continues to expand and post record profits, they continue to squeeze and erode both the financial and living conditions of the very people who they rely on to perform this miraculous expansion they dream of. All the observations presented above by my esteemed colleagues I can attest are valid and accurate. Make no mistake about it, as one of the previous posters stated in this thread Emirates is a 3rd world airline (no matter how much glitz they attach to it) in a 3rd world country. Don’t be deceived by the gloss and enter this outfit forewarned and educated. Then you won’t be surprised when the conditions deteriorate further over the next few years and you’re left wondering why you left your previous employer for this bunch.

The one thing I have learned in this business is there is always a pilot willing to fill a seat in an aircraft and I have no doubt there will be those who dream of filling those seats at Emirates. My advice: for those of you with secure jobs at your present company with a future ahead of you: Stay. For those of you of you with considerable jet command experience: I would suggest you might want to watch for Direct Entry Commands (as much as I hate to agree with anything 441A might say) as I see them as a really possibility in this company in the future. For those of you who are desperate to find work: Come to Emirates as there is probably going to be a seat for you here. Should pilots heed this advice I will feel really comfortable knowing the First Officers I fly with will have at least come to this company with the “blinders off” and will know what they are getting themselves into.

Regards to all

Any ideas on why the conditions are deteriorating, considering the current?
Is there such still an "oversupply" of suitable and willing candidates?
Do they only want young singles (they do come somewhat "cheaper" after all)?
Are they aware of the possible "attitude"-effects of DECs on their current FOs?

It all doesn´t make a whole lot of sense to me, if I look at how they want to expand, and from what I´ve heard and read HRH isn´t stupid - on the contrary.

But then, maybe I just haven´t quite understood the mentality of the people in charge.

Good luck to all who are there or are going there!

Oh dear. This is all very worrying stuff. I suppose it's better to know the truth before you make these decisions.

Wonderbusdriver, you say "It all doesn´t make a whole lot of sense to me…"

Since when did it have to make sense? The men who run the show are beancounters, whose future, (and possibly bonuses), depend on how many dollars, drachmas, shekles, dirhams, pounds or francs they can save the Sheikh - (and here's the magic phrase) - in the short term, 'coz there hasn't been a beancounter born who's looked beyond the next balance sheet to gauge the long-term effects of his latest 'money saving' master plan.

I have to agree with the comment made earlier that there always seem to be enough pilots willing to take whatever's on offer, however poor that is. Sadly, the non-operations management know it, and despite all the blurb about their wanting 'the best', the fact is that all they really want is two bums occupying the two front seats. And the 'bums on seats' could well be read as 'the two bums in the seats' if you get my drift, 'coz that's the way pilots are perceived by such people - as overpaid, underworked bums.

"..if I look at how they want to expand, and from what I´ve heard and read HRH isn´t stupid - on the contrary." I too understand the Chairman to be very astute, but don't for one moment think he has the time to concern himself with anything as 'microeconomic' as whether the pilots are happy over their 2% pay rise as opposed to everyone else in the company getting 5%. (For those who might want to quibble, the 3% automatic annual pay increment is one of the very heavily stressed points in the pilot interview process. To my knowledge, no such inducement is offered to most other staff on initial hiring.) The sad fact is that management will continue to turn the screws a little bit tighter until one of two things happen:
(a) the well of all too willing recruits dries up, which is highly unlikely, for as has been said above, there are always enough pilots out there willing to take whatever's on offer, even if they see it as a short term sheer hell, but one way to get themselves a widebody endorsement. They might not be the pilots the recruiters would prefer to have, but even the most inexperienced (or marginal) pilots will keep the schedule running by being 'bums on seats'.
Or:
(b) a dozen or more pilots resign in a very short time - and for all the bitching and moaning, very few have done so and I believe very few are likely to, if only because of inertia. Until this happens, the men with the pursestrings can continue to tell the Chairman that all is well. And for them, it will be. Accountants have never been able to understand the first thing about the importance of a solid pilot experience base in a rapidly expanding airline. And if the Airline of the Year turns into a can of worms because of their 'clever' cost savings, you can guarantee they won't take the fall. It'll be the bunny - or should that be 'the bum in the seat'.

"But then, maybe I just haven´t quite understood the mentality of the people in charge." Amen to that.

Pirep.
GF history seems set to repeat it'self.



------------------
We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?

7X7:

Thanks.
That´s more or less, what I presumed.
Just wanted to hear it from one of you mrats.

[This message has been edited by wonderbusdriver (edited 03 June 2001).]

I have to thank you all for the very precise and most interesting comments you mrats made.
One of you mentioned expansion. Is this doubling of the fleet I read about true ? And if yes, how can they avoid DEC's ? This would undoubtly attract a lot of " bums " would it not ?
What I'd be interested to know and if this is not too much of a give away, is how you ended up in the sand pitt ?
Wonderbus, mein Gott ! Dich kann man überal sehen. Habt ihr so viele freie Zeit ? Wie geht's mit dem Streick ? Mach's gut.

[This message has been edited by wallabie (edited 04 June 2001).]

Looks like Emirates is studying the Singapore Airlines way: erode, alienate & dominate.It's true of SIA expat captains that they generally have no other opportunities, as most are late forties- fifties.Likewise, Emirates seems to revel in this situation, esp with the ex-disputers.Maybe EK guys will try the 777 based in Oz with SQ, from the fire to the frying pan i'm afraid.

Well...truth coming from everywhere! Thought I would add-on to the confusion.
It all comes down to the basics of offer/demand. As someone already said, management will get away with as much cutting as they can, until either manpower and/or safety are compromised (already happening?). Fact is, pilots at EK are not queuing to leave by the masses, and THERE ARE bunches of colleagues willing to join in, qualified and not. Just a downside of being AN EMPLOYEE.
Everyone's situation is different. Some of us have a good job back home, some don't, some have good prospects with their present employer, some don't. What I want to get across is that EK it's not the best job in the planet (although mngmnt. seems to think so) nor the Only one in the planet, but it's not the worse either...if compared to some of our er...options! (not many).
For the guys inside: Bitching doesn't help a bit, and - in this case - neither does negotiating or writing nice letters. We are on our own, yeah, but we can also leave ANYTIME WE WANT, right?
For the guys OUTSIDE: Think about it carefully, weigh in ALL the feedback you can get from your pals in EK and compare it to YOUR situation, and no one else's.
Good luck!

Well... first of all thanks for all the info. Most of us complain and believe that the grass is greener on the other side but this sounds depressing. I truely considered EK to be a top company to work for - until now...
Best of luck

This is only half the story.

Emirates has over the years sacked many pilots on the flimsiest grounds. None of them had a chance at a fair hearing, even though the charges were sometimes laughable.

On top of that the system of "justice" is a joke. Something out of the middle ages, not a modern progressive country. If you are the victim of a crime perpetrated by a "local", you stand no chance at all. He will win every time. Read between the lines of the local press, it is heavily censored.

Does anybody from Emirates have a guess at time to command for somebody joining now? Also, is there a rumour of an announcement of a large order for new aircraft expected?

Thanks, camel trader

Wow!
I guess it is true then "all that glitters is not gold"
I have always dreamt of working for EK until I read this thread.
Good luck to all of you EK pilots, 'hope things will work for the better.

Is the bubble just about to pop? I think so. And this will eventually lead to a spiral descent.......

good luck out there.

I don't think the bubble will burst just yet. There is still a lot of expansion to come, and I do believe that Emirates is a good job and lifestyle. It has the potential to be GREAT. Unfortunately rules change, and they only seem to change to suite the company never the employee. That there are a lot of unhappy pilots now at Emirates is certain.

In the past the guys were thanked (a computer message when you sign on/off) for putting in the extra mile to help the Airline reach its next goal when it was short of crews. And that we did. Statements like "it's going to be a busy summer, please bear with us...." became only too familiar, but yet we all gave what we could because after all, if the Airline did well so would we. When it came to laying the chips on the table we saw exactly how gratefull the company was for our efforts. Exactly 2% grateful. This when everybody else got 5% and in some cases more!

Yes we want EK to do well, and yes we want to be part of a winning team, but it's hard to stay positive and focused when we are seemingly at best merely numbers in some beancounter's ledger.

This is one example, there are more.

It takes so little to keep morale up and people happy. Thanks to Richard, Frankie, Gareth, Eimer and the other Richard at crew scheduling - your efforts have been noticed!



[This message has been edited by Warlock2000 (edited 09 June 2001).]

Well said Warlock, and I second your statement.

Best Regards

If the situation is so bad the question has to be asked would you leave a shorthaul command based in Europe for Emirates if you had the chance again today?

Camel Trader. Why leave a command in Europe to join Emirates? That I do not understand!

Look at your present scenario and then look at all that has been written about EK. Make up your own mind based on the information at hand!

Regards.

I pop in every time I'm back from a trip and the number of posts gets higher all the time.
A lot has been sais about working and pay conditions.
What about life after work in Dubaï ? What do you guys do on your free time and what does family life look like with 50 C and 90 % humidity. You know, it's the same in summer in Arizona.
I don't think barbie is an option with a windstorm blowing ?

Air conditioned house to air conditioned car to air conditioned plane!! Most families leave Dubai and go home when it is at its hottest. For those that stay, family life revolves around the pool, beach and in my wife's case the phone but that is another (expensive) story.

Whilst it does get tooo.. hot in summer there are also a bunch of places to go for indoor activities including play areas for the little ones and even ice skating. As always, it costs money to entertain the troops. A trip to one of the indoor centres will probably run to 100Dh+ for the average family and this starts to add up as the summer wears on; but you have no alternative.

Don't get the wrong impression, Dubai does have a lot to offer year round, even though it is hotter than the face of the sun in summer. The snag is that when all the entertaining is done, it will cost an average family more money living in Dubai than in a more developed country.

The powers that be have forgotten that the guys that come to Dubai are ex-pats and as such need to save money so that when they return home (and they have to by law) they can buy a house and can retire reasonably comfortably; otherwise what is the point!

An FO's salary doesn't crack it, a Capt's salary is better. Most people haven't been here long enough to complain too much, but the trend is worrying. 40% inflation, 10% payrise over 10 years what will the future hold. Being an optimist I hope someone will see sense, otherwise there may well be a mass exodus in a couple of years and that would be sad.

By the way the difference between Phoenix and Dubai is that Phoenix is 'kin hot but dry whereas Dubai is 'kin hot and 99% humidity! The weather in Phoenix beats the !!!!! out of Dubai in summer, trust me.

Ghost

I have been following the posts with great interest, and I firmly believe that the Co. has made a big mistake by offending rather than commending the pilots and other staff with such a low increment. As an engineer with EK for a long time i have flown with EK pilots as well as pilots from other airlines and I have found the EK bunch to be extremely profesional and the best around.
The Engineers in EK have no hope at all at any improvements unless the chaps at the sharp end are looked after.
Best of luck chaps!

What will happen to Emirates when the oil in UAE runs out, (which it will fairly soon). I know they are trying to focus on tourism but surely that can only take them so far.

Gentlemen/Ladies,
Some facts:-
Pilots are NOT leaving in SUFFICENT numbers to gain the attention of the "brass hats" yet.
Not ONE pilot has left for Singapore Airlines based in Oz,yet.
Pilots from all over the world,with all types of experience are still applying.
Until ANY of the above change,the senior management will continue to expand EK,with the willing support of Flt Ops management,who have allowed our present state of morale to descend thus far.
The problem is not now,it will be in 2-5 yrs from now,unless the issues are addressed now,but as I said that is unlikely whilst the senior and experienced guys stay.
Simple really,and they on the 2nd floor know it.
EK still has plenty to offer,but it should and Im sure will get better eventually,good luck to anyone considering coming.
Ive never regretted it.
Rommel.

Excellent posting Rommel, nothing but the truth.
To those of you thinking about applying to EK, come over to DXB and SEE FOR YORSELF instead of listening to the moanin' n' gripin' some of our colleagues love doing, even when things go well. The truth is that with all its faults and wrongs, it is still the best job for expats out there, if it weren't we all would have ****ed off long time ago. Of course it's not Wunderjob anymore, but it is certainly not the worst either.
Has anyone mentioned that in all this whining that at the last pilot/management meeting there were 2 Ferraris and no less than 3 or 4 Carreras parked outside? Yes, they were pilot-owned! But money is not enough....right?
Y'all moaners stop bitching and let people make their own minds. Take your complains where something can be done about'em or else piss off back to where things are better!

Whoa Teco, calm down there boy. Tempers get short in the summer I know, but aren't you being a little shrill? Sounds just a bit defensive to me.

The problem with EK is that things are just not going to get any better. Those of us here for a while have nothing to look forward to. The financial deal has been eroded over the years, housing is becoming a joke (just look at the mess over CBV), rosters are tight and flights incredibly tiring. Do this for another ten or fifteen years? Why?

Now understand why my Ozmates are trickling away to Virgin Blue. Can't say I blame them. And by the way Rommell, SIA has not employed anyone for their Oz bases. Funny that.
Whether anyone from EK applied I don't know, but guys are going to VB for a fraction of the money.

Said it before, will say it again. If you have a reasonable job in your own country stay there. Don't leave home for EK, you will regret it.