Speaking as one who has been through three major takeover/mergers, you all have my fellow-feeling - on both sides of the fence. It can be ugly - but not always. MaxReheat identifies the core of the issue. The success of TUPE depends entirely on the integrity of the two companies involved - this is from personal (alarming) experience.

And cabingal, my heartfelt sympathy - I heard of my last takeover by text message too - the feeling of disbelief is hard to explain to those who haven't had their lives turned upside-down by a few words on a mobile phone screen.

My very best wishes to all of you - there are lots of us out here who have shared your experience .. and it seems that most of us have survived in the business, some (including me) to advantage. Good luck.

There is one positive thing in all this that seems to be getting missed. Flybe are not going to want our incompetent management. Finally we will be rid of the :mad: managers. :D
You know, the ones that said Flybe were a 'Here today, gone tomorrow airline'. That's :ouch: for them.
For me Christmas has come early.:ok:

Dunno about Christmas coming early. It just might be a case of out of the frying pan into the fire.

On balance (and I know that the devil is in the detail) Id rather take my chances with a company that has some belief in itself and a dynamic management team who are expanding their company.

Our dismal one trick CEO David Evans only knows how to cut, close and give away the best bits of the business.

Heaven knows where BA found him but his ineptitude which has all but brought us to our knees will be sorely unmissed!

Thank you Earthmover - very kind, I am putting things into perspective - looks like we will keep our jobs! Just see what happens I suppose! I'm not going to jump ship just yet!

Well folks- at least now we know!

Plusses

1. Uncertainty removed.
2. Flybe make money- so
3. Maybe you get to the base you want-and to stay there.
4. Money the same if TUPE honoured (am I correct in thinking Flybe Jet pay similar to BACon??)
5. Shiny new metal coming soon in the shape of the -195's

minusses.
1. No more BA Staff travel?
2. Scheduling agreement will have to fought for.
3. Will ex BACon "jet" people get bumped onto the TP's due Flybe folk being more senior?? This will be the real cruncher.:rolleyes:

3a.If it turns out to be pish you can always leave!:ok:

The seniority bit will do my head in cos I am quite senior at Bacon! I'll be gutted about my concessions though!

A couple of inadvertent innacuracies have crept in to this thread. Firstly, TUPE, the regulations that protect employees' terms and conditions when a business is transferred, do not apply where a business is transferred by means of share purchase and secondly, even in circumstances where TUPE does apply, pension benefits are expressly excluded from the TUPE regulations.

Flybe have ordered 14 E-195 with options for 12. This is surely going to mean not enough seats to even come close to satisfying everybody. Surely alot of Bacon jet jocks are going to have to go Q400, which is fine for some, but i'm sure many will not be happy with the 'downgrade'. Good luck to all.

Flybe are going to have to go on a very convincing charm offensive or they might just discover that they have acquired a company where everyone is leaving.

Two things.......... staff travel and a naieve hope that we might be absorbed into BA kept many hanging on.

If everyone is to be thrown onto the bottom of their seniority list and demoted off type then forget it.............

Come to think of it.what does it matter to Flybe if a lot of Bacon pilots go? No tupe to worry about and no hassle.

RR,Which dept where they in?

Answers (Some)
 

Hi All,

Sorry to hear that BA have treated their staff so poorly with notification - for what it's worth flybe staff only found out on getting into work/returning after a roster this morning, but at least we got a shiny video/letter/handout to look at. Not much detail in them either, lots of questions to be answered and something of a bolt from the blue.

Flybe is a weird thing in itself -the people on the line are great and there is a generally very positive attitude to the day's work. That's the only good bit.

There is no scheduling agreement; in fact, after a year in the company I'm still without a contract I'm willing to sign. Your life aint really your own -we are working, at SOU, 6 day stretches of at least 4 sectors a day, always finishing on a late and starting on an early for 56 hrs off. That means one beer night in 8 -or is it 9? -I'm too knackered to work it out. In Oct I flew over 85 hrs and all standby days were called in.

The Q400 is a hoot - very capable and efficient on paper, especially banknote paper, but a bitch to fly and the flightdeck is an ergonomic slum. Great fun as long as you can let the gotcha's wash over you and have no pride in getting a greaser now and then.

You have little control over the roster; day-off requests are usually ignored and have to be in before you get the relevant invite/appointment and if you don't know when you want your 28 days leave 9 months in advance a nice lady in Exeter decides for you.

April 06's pay deal still is in dispute, although the TP pay is better than BACON's. The membership blew away the last offer - 4% pa for 3 years is a con, and it lacked a scheduling agreement apart from a few minor concessions. 195 course slots are rare to the point of extinction. The management clearly don't give a toss about the staff welfare or morale - good to know we upped the value of their options by 20million last six months though.

And the 3rd PArty handling agents range from OK to lousy.

SO - Were I in BACON I'd be glad of the security, certain for the TP pilots and hopefully for the Jet guys, but I would look at flybe, as sooooo many of us do, as either an employer convenient to a regional airport where you really want to live, or a stepping stone to another job.

There is one more good point, actually, lots of jet operators are developing a real taste for people with Q400 experience!

You are correct to point out that pensions are excluded from TUPE but your first point does not make sense. BA are selling (giving away) BACon. In return BA will receive a 15% share, not 15% of the shares .Therefore the transaction will not be viewed as a share purchase and TUPE will apply.

To the Flybe folk:

Any chance of breakdown of your aircraft type by base? Judging by the press releases, the future for BRS doesn't look good. We're all 145 people since the Dash-8s left, so the future in Flybe looks like a forced base move to a turboprop & I can't believe there'll be many takers. But any more insight would be gratefully received.

TIA, RS

Well Trotts, let's see what we can bring to the table then

Thankyou trotts for confirming what many of us already think of FlyBe. Its patently obvious that there won't be anything like enough jet seats for those of us already flying BACON 146's and Embraers. I'm pretty sure they will be reserved for the boys at the top of the FlyBe seniority list.

So what are we looking at? Sitting in the RHS of a trash 8? I don't think so. I'm not going to throw away 2500 hours of medium jet experience to go and work for a dead end company.

I don't see that TUPE will work. I'm sure that FlyBe simply can't afford it. And even if we were to be promoted within Flybe, I'm sure their turbo prop Captains pay is little better than what we already pay our jet F/O's.

The only way is out!

Evans and co, particularly Hutchings, etc, will be nothing but a laughing stock within the industry, I can remember the way PH used to strut around, pompous ASS!!!!! Doubt if he could pass another conversio actually!:}

Ones in the hangar, doing the dirty work :}. Only spoke to him briefly so not sure of all the details ie. termination dates. Turns out the other is ok for the moment he's not worrying.

:)

RJ Forward planning
 

Anyone ANY :rolleyes: idea if all the RJs will be kept (for the moment) or if the handback will commence in the NY as planned?:rolleyes:
Please please please can I buy the trainers some drinks before they do the Type Ratings for Hutch, Deac and the Feelan? I'm sure they'll be COMPLETELY fair, hopefully DD will maybe do all of them, and do FOR them the way they did for him!:{

Early days, but anyone any idea if moving to EDI incurs a bond? Imagine it could be a good idea to move up there with this bunch, then tunnel away to Globespan:D

I can just hardly believe this. I have to keep pinching myself. How did we get here from where we were before BA bought us? How could this possibly have happened? How did we get such INCOMPETENT, ILLITERATE, PATHETIC and ARROGANT managers??????? No business skills, no commercial skills, no financial skills, no people skills, and as Phelan demoed, no flying skills either. Truly incredible, if I had read a book about us, I would have said it was ridiculous!!!!! The only only only reason most of us hung around was the FS pension, and the thought that SURELY SURELY SURELY it had to get better some time. What odds were there that it was to be death by a hundred cuts? Two years the effing crunt said, two years to get profitable????? Effing five months or so was all it took; how could we have let it come to this, why why why did we belive them, why we all so effing stupid???????:ugh:
Do I stay, go, trust Flybe, become an ancient FO with another airline, or stay and maybe be seniority listed down to a TP again??
When my son asks if he should think about becoming a pilot - what should I say???:confused:

Holy MOG, I need a drink, no, I need a bottle.......:*

No Suprise
 

Well, after speaking to a few collegues the rumours about BA are true:eek:
BRAL & Brymon used to have 8 sectors a day to LHR, the main share holder was a major Insurance Company, who sold their share to BA for an estimated £125 million.
How much would BAA have sold these routes for?
Cheaper to buy the airline than buy the sectors then put a 747 on the sector than a 146 :ooh:

Think the first to go will be IOM, can't really see them keeping the hangar as they have EXE and BHX.

The hangar at BHX which BA Connect has acquired is allegedly sub contacted from BA mainline.

BA Connect own very few aircraft, the lease on the RJ's is due to expire in the next year or so.

Whats going to happen to the MAN - JFK route, technically that's a BACON owned sector.

Rumour has it that a major banking business is behind the EDI - LCY route, wonder how they will react :confused:

Don't forget good old Mr. W Walsh sitting in his lovely office at Waterside,
You need two people to shake hands, a little thought for him :\

Not a happy bunny :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Soon to be an ex-employee of BA Disconnect

MAN-JFK will stay with BA mainline, crewed from LHR.

LCY-EDI will almost certainly become a subsidiary as I can't see Mainline reopening the Scottish Base. However if A318s appear, they may have to (or have a direct report to LCY for the LHR crews - there is already an equivalent agreement for LHR crews to report to LGW.)

Good luck to all at BACON. Hope things work out okay.

5+ years ago we had Brymon, Manx / BRAL, CityFlyer, etc. Not perfect, but in general they were headed by management teams who were totally focussed on their markets in a minute level of detail, and were successful as a result.

As soon as BA started dismantling those 'focussed' management teams, the days were numbered. The London-centric approach was always going to prevail in the end.

:ugh:

Maybe Flybe will let us fold our checklists……..:ugh:

Flybe have paid for todays deal with 15% of their own company.

What have they got in return?

Some planes...........and some planes leases:rolleyes:
Some routes........... these are free
Some engineering and ground stuff.....they already have most of what they'll need.
loads of pilots...........which they need for the planes they've ordered.

anything else?

Loganair must be next to go, as the only airline left flying around in turboprops in BA colours the writing must surely be on the wall. Also CEO Jim Camerons decision to 'move on' this week coming on the back of dismal recent performance by LC and Scortt Griers promise to replace SAAB 340 with 50 seat aircraft and BA Connect going to have a few spare Dash 8's....its all a bit too cosy for comfort.

Why do they always do this on a Friday?
 

Toots1252 i am guessing you hold a management position in BACON from the way you have phrased your opening paragraph? So if i am reading you right are you saying that even though i would be flying around on a FLYBE aircraft i would still be employed by BA CONNECT LTD????

i belive Toots has copied and pasted from the press releases there

Dot Cotton was asked "What about the Sched Agreemt"
Response - "You can forget about that... far too expensive"
"There speaks a management pilot"
Reponse - "There speaks a pilot who wants to keep his job"
"No Dot if you want to keep your job you don't go back to treating people like dirt because then most of the pilots will leave and you deffo won't have a job"
The SA is not a contractual issue and therefore has no protection.
Have seen the video by the Head of FBe and there is no mistaking his tone. Makes the point strongly that we have similar size businessess but Fly Be's profit much greater...therefore significant cost to come out of BACON to make it work.
Other info is - that it is classed as a share purchase
- The RJs and 767 will move to the mother ship (we will be keeping the 146 though...lucky us).
CV time
Flat Tire - LOL and its the first time I have laughed today

So am i assuming right that even though flybe and bacon effectivly become one, the ex bacon employees would still be employed by bacon ltd???? Or am i missing something?(probably!!!)

its all a bit confusing at the moment,eventually the name will change over and say Flybe on our contracts (like when it changed from bacx to bacon) id like to think they will tell us more in the near future,but you know what this bunch of :mad: are like.
ive just been talking to a friend of mine who works for flybe and is ext based.he was seriously considering his future with the company,but now this is all going ahead,he is feeling quite positive.
i know its come as a big shock to all of us,and that it is hard to believe,but you have to think of it this way:
Flybe have really saved our BACON even if it does mean BA Disconnected, but at the end of the day, most of us will still have jobs, whereas if the company had just gone to the slaughterhouse,we'd be well and truly :mad:!

Sorry, nothing new to add, just fancied a rant:ugh:

One would guess that the statement that all Flight Crew are to remain employed by BA Connect Ltd implies that our pay at least will be frozen until it falls into line with whatever you would earn if you were a Flybe employee doing whatever job you end up with.:confused:

However, the sticking point is going to be: do we get a relocation package and pay protection to move base from a jet to a prop? Flybe make money yes, but thats going to be an awful lot of wonga out of the bottom line. Unless of course dear Uncle Willie and London Airways are going to stump up the cash as a smoother (and who is going to carry on paying for Easterns Jetstreams....:bored:)

Lots of questions and if the last few years are anything to go by, lots of vague and contradictory answers will be forthcoming from our "leaders" over the next few weeks.

Time to get behind BALPA I think, boys and girls.

Anyway, must go. The play-dough models are ready, just need to find the knitting needles...

AlphaCharlie,
As a humble ATCr working at MAN..I don't think that I am going to be very busy in the "near" future....No a/c....
GLA - 2 x Q400
EDI - 3 x Q400
GCI - 1 x 146, 1 x Q400
JER - 1 x 146, 1 x Q400
NWI - 2 x Q400
SOU - 3 x 146, 5 x Q400
BHX - 1 x 195, 3 x 146,
BHD - 2 x 146, 4 x Q400
EXT - 1 x 146, 4 x Q400
watp,iktch

And no more shortcuts for BACON pilots into Mainline. Hope all goes well for all concerned.

Good luck BA Connect
 

As a bone of contention, I worked for a BA franchise for 11 years out of BHX. When times got hard at fortress LHR, we saw pax numbers fall off, then BAR at BHX saw the same.................. I guess this deal will seal the end of British Airways serving British Airports. Appppppppauling.

To think in 94, BA were gonna take over the World, had inductions to explain the plans, the franchise policies worldwide. Sorry BACON boys and girls, you are excluded, but boy, how the mighty have fallen.

First the Eastern deal, now this, sorry give the flag to Virgin and force BA to 'trade as'. The so called National Airline is no longer interested in the Nation, surely they are no longer the National Airline.

Chiglet ... someone had asked for CURRENT distribution of flybe a/c ... i.e today pre merger! MAN will shortly be Flybe's biggest base in a blink.

BHX and Flybe
 

BHX will be the biggest Flybe base when the two fleets are combined
Daza

What short-cuts are you implying? The only concession we got even as a subsidiary was to be guaranteed an interview, WOW

An interview in which you were asked by a spotty yoof SFO why you wanted to work for BA. Cheeky ba2*1)ds.

We must not forget the many friendly faces around the networks who will also be affected. Half the work done by the MAN, FRA, GLA etc BA ground-staff is for BACON. Will Flybe be requiring their services?

I doubt it.

One or two of them may be living in th past, but overall, a fantastic bunch of people to work with. Hope it works out reasonably well for them too.