Wait a sec here!!
 

Some how going strait to a Jet is skipping the food chain!! Well skip the :mad: food chain!!!!

Look getting that first job is 30% Skill
30% Contacts
40% LUCK
FACT.

I got my job because a bunch of Aussies left the company and my Friends Brothers old Flat mate was a FO and good friends with the Head of Training.:E And I know lots of pilots better than me getting shafted!! I can understand Wanting to pay for a sstr This is a business and Pilots are not a Union So we cant all go on strike and refuse to pay. Not with a family a mortgage and 80K flight Dept's. Most people here who are on their high horse didn't pay for the rating....knew somebody in the company and now drive a BMW to work its easy to forget the old days. :=

I was DANM :mad: Lucky but I will never knock somebody less fortunate than me!

Go for it dude:ok:

I paid for a type rating, it was by far the best thing I ever did. I was offered a job the minute I finished my training. I paid £55,000 for all my training (CPL IR FIR B737 Rating), I know of Oxford students who have paid way more than this and only have a frozen ATPL to show for it, and no job. I have been earning £45,000 PA for the past three years now, I will have a command in 6 months, all things being well, earning £75,000 PA for 30 years. If you look at this as a business plan the numbers stack up, do the maths!!
You can take the moral high ground if you want, but this is not likely to get you a job, and if I had my time again I would pay for a rating in a heart beat!!!

Chalk another one up to money over ability getting you the job. :{

That is an arrogant thing to say considering you do not even know me, no wonder you do not have an airline job with that attitude, may be you should stick to the Flight Instructors forum!:=

I am sure the company TRE would disagree with you;)

Money has nothing to do with ability!

Actually that's not quite true. Many people have money because of some ability or skill in some profession or trade prior to persuing a career in aviation. Not everybody who pays for their own training etc. was born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

Just because you haven't got a pot to piss in doesn't mean you can (or can't) fly any better than the next person.

Happy days:ok:

That's a very constructive plan. You are essentially flicking two fingers at those employed ahead of you and saying "I will dictate what the market pays you, it's less than what you're on now, but I don't care cos I'll get to do what you do. If I can't get a job, damned if their gonna profit from theirs."
Then along comes Addy number 2 next year and says the same thing, but now Addy number 1 is getting screwed. What are you gonna think then? So while Addy 1 has decided the job is worth less than I value it at, Addy 2 has decided to value the job at less again. And so on and so on.
But, you say, I will get command in 3 years. And so your company will offer it in 3 years. But look, here's a little hitch you didn't foresee back when the 2 stripes were shiny. Company says, you can have command, but your basic will be 20k less than current captains. So you think, well I can stay on my deflated FO salary (which you have spent 2 years complaining about - people like you don't see cause and effect) or I can accept the command offer. Ok so it's less than the other captains, but maybe now I can afford to actual buy the fleahole I live in instead of rent it. So you are now locked into a career long cycle of reduced earnings. Look ahead 30 years, will that make you happy?
I can tell you this, there aren't many 50 something year olds flying who don't want to jack it in. And these are guys that flew when it was possible to earn big money. Do you think when you're their age you'll be any more satisfied with your reduced earnings career?
Anyway, there's a welcome for you in ryanair. People like you have long ago decided that a ryanair pilot is worth a pittance of a salary. Unfortunately the rest of us who thought otherwise must suffer for your stupidity. So come on over, I'd love you to personally explain to me why you think I'm worth so much less than I value myself.


And so you shall. Unfortunately your 75k ain't gonna keep pace with inflation, so in a few years 75k is gonna look about as rosy as mud. Cause and effect.

CamelhAir: Now there you forgot 1 thing.

There have always, and will always be, 'too many' low-houred pilots trying to get in. So on the bottom of the food chain, you do not have much choice as I see it. It's either you, or somebody else.

However, once you're in and have flown for quite a while, well that's the point when you actually become interesting for companies. How many ads do you see asking for 200-1000 hour SPA pilots? Not too many.
Now, how many ads do you see for 5000+ MPA pilots? Exactly.

It's the getting in part which is hard, once you're much more experienced you're a lot more valuable. Of course nowadays salaries are lower than they once were, nonetheless the salaries are still pretty high. Well, more than high enough for me anyway (I'm talking command salaries by the way) So you won't hear me complain, as long as I can do the job that I want to do.

If I would be interested in glamour or money only I'd be in a different bussiness...

What is good for the goose,
 

It seems to me like everybody thinks that there is a certain way things should be done..That is fine, but what happend to individuality (don't even know if I remembered how to spell that!)
Andy number 1 has just come out of flightschool, his former job (say he was a carpenter or something) will keep him on part time. He has no wife and no kids, he might be happy flying gliders or being an FI - His other job pays enough to get by. He can wait for that T/P or jet job.

Andy number 2 has just come out of flightschool, he has no other qualifications (lets say he is just out of the forces) at his "graduation" party he forgets his raincoat and his girlfriend for the night gets pregnant. He can get a loan of say £30.000 based on his previous income and that might just land him a £40k PA job. If he doesn't, flipping donalds at Mcburger might be his only option. He'll need to do that full time to pay his bills.

I'm no fan of SSTR's either, but I won't jugde Andy for his decisions without knowing which sh..t pile he has landed in. I would love to be on a level playing field where those who don't get picked first just go home. But in my world things are different.
(What I just wrote makes perfect sence to me.. but then again "just one more beer" also ALWAYS makes sence to me!)

CamelhAir

You do have a point but I don’t think you can blame people trying to break into the industry accepting lower terms and conditions than people already established. What are they to do, just walk away from something they have paid so much for and put so much effort into.

There was a time when pilots made a great deal of money, had their children’s school fees paid for, fantastic pensions etc. These days are sadly over. I don’t know your situation, position, salary etc. but I assume its not the aforementioned. By your own logic you are therefore guilty of lowering the T&C’s for current pilots. I don’t blame you, it’s just market forces. Pilot’s on yesterday’s packages probably blame you just as much as you blame people such as Addy.

The picture is not totally bleak. With a shortage of captains, experienced pilots are in a very stong bargaining position. Saying that there are pilots from Eastern European countries willing and eager to join UK airlines on salaries that are far greater than they can get back home.

The industry has changed and will continue to change. The same can be said for every other industry in the UK, be it coal, car making, telecoms, medicine etc.

My GOOD. What crap !!!!ty and dangerous airline hired you?? Will NEVER fly with them as pax.
I prefer to have a crew up front that know what they are doing from day one, and not having to learn everything from basic with passengers as hostages in the back :bored: :ugh:

I know all lowtimers believe that they are masters of the world from day one (I did as well), but reality is that you ARE NOT. And when will the airlines start to realize that it is about SAFETY when they are considering whom to fly the big heavy, fast and shiny jets.

Am glad that i did my years on TP first, and would never exchange the experience and knowledge that i got from there. Something you will never get when entering the airlines from day one without having had to take any dessicions by yourself in the real world.
There should be a law forbitting pilots to fly heavy metal before they have learned to walk normally :( :( :(

Would you regard BA as a crap !!!!ty and dangerous airline? Or maybe easyJet? Lots of airlines large and small hire pilots with either no or very low hours and train them up from scratch. Since you are so concerned with safety I suggest you refer these dangerous practitioners to the CAA as soon as possible. They must be investigated!!!:rolleyes:

There's no point slating people for doing what's best for themselves and their families. If there are any flying instrustors out there who have the means to pay for a type rating, and have contacts within an airline to get them a job at the end of it, but who are steadfastly sitting in their Cessna's waiting for a direct entry position as a mark of solidariity against the erosion of airline pilots' pay and conditions, please can they make themselves known to the good folk on pprune.

Almost every short- and medium-haul jet operator in the UK hires low-houred pilots (below 500 hours) and puts them into the right seat of their airliners. Many of these pilots have come straight from basic training. It is a fact of the UK market and has been so for many, many years - with BA (and BOAC before it) being in the vanguard of the practice. For those who have a problem with that, I'm afraid that particular horse bolted while you may have still been in nappies - it's far too late to shut that stable door now.

So, bearing that in mind, perhaps we can keep the advice to Addy's particular problem within the UK market as it actually is, not how some would wish it to be?

Scroggs

I think your post really highlights what a true pratt you are. What makes you think that flying turbo props makes you more suited to flying jets than anyone else? There were a number of low houred guys on my type rating course that showed a far greater aptitude to flying jets than many of the turbo prop guys who had thousands of hours. And as abracadabra quite rightly said, why would BA and many other top airlines hire low timers if it was dangerous?? Are they all wrong??

And just for the record I am not a low timer, I built many hours as a Flight Instructor before I started flying jets.

Agree with Scroggs, but remember a lot of those airlines are very very selective where they recruit from, or should I say which TRTO they are in bed with!

I do not agree with SSTR, but money talks in a money industry, especially in an era of 'the I want it now kid or I throw my toys out'. Its a time we live in that many kids today have been spoilt and do not know the value of work.

I think it is important to make some important differences. Firstly those who pay for a TR when they do not have a job to go for, as opposed those (like Ryanair) who have a job at the end.

Secondly those who have paid for a TR and earned every penny spent on their flight training (that does not include those who have washed Dads car once for £50,000 or those who sold the BMW daddy bought), as opposed to those who have been funded by the bank of M&D.

Thirdly the SSTR is down to 3 parties, the pilot, the TRTO and the airline. It cannot and will not exist without all 3. There will always be airlines that look to save cash, always TRTO that want cash and always people who have more than sense.

Finally, its not the SSTR pilot who is bringing down wages, its the scruffy pilots with crap RT, dirty shoes,crap maners, gutter accents and treat the industry like a hobby. Perhaps if we all tried to be more Professional we might have cause to demand a professional pay packet.

How many of you out there have registered the fact that Addy comes from the Netherlands? How many of you out there have tried getting a flying job in the Netherlands? Not many, I would suspect.

It has been my pleasure to teach quite a few Dutch pilots so I feel a little bit qualified to comment.

It seems that if you don't get taken on by KLM as a youngster then the future is immediately pretty bleak. Holland is not a large country.

Most of the guys that I taught had paid quite a lot of money to fly for a US operator (B1900) and, while there, got paid less money than a street cleaner. However, they got 500 hours of interesting experience.

They were a joy to teach and all are now in the left seat. Sometimes in life you have to speculate to accumulate.

Flying TP's does not learn you how to fly a jet, but it will over time put you into serveral situations where you will have to take decisions as you go along, and it will give you some backbone knowledge that will be very beneficial later in life where decisions made on knowledge and experience is required.

That can't be so hard to understand ??

The biggest factor contributing to the increase in the SSTR schemes in the UK is the change from the CAA system to JAA. Remember under the CAA system on the self improver route you had to build up 700 hours to upgrade the BCPL to a full CPL. This meant that every self improver(or modular) pilot had to instruct, para drop or tow gliders before progressing to an airline position. Remember it was JAA implementation that allowed a full cpl to be held at 200 hours.

We are all principly against the practice of pilots bying their own TR, but who is realisticly in a position to influence the airlines?

No, it's not the young pilots fresh out of FTO's.

How can all those highly experienced pilots sit in their shiny planes, pointing fingers at us lowtimers, whineing about their deteriorating saleries and lack of pride in profession?

:yuk:

snuble

That excuse carries no weight anymore in these JAA days. Considering the entire JAA is a potential job market, sitting whinging in a small poxy country is no excuse for not getting a job. These days you have to go beyond your native borders to get going in a career. I am Danish and have left its shores instead of sitting bitching about it like the rest of the muppets out of EKRK.

What I really don't understand in this discussion is how certain individuals, yeah I'm talking to you "UP and Down Operator", can be so judgemental. First of all, SSTR is a direct consequence of market forces. Certainly no-one wants to pay for training. But spilling your guts on low-timers in general proves your lack of insight and does not solve anything.
Most low-timers do not demand to fly jets. All they want is to have some kind of paid work as a pilot. If their situation does not improve after years of being on the verge of bankruptcy, they start looking for extreme solutions. SSTR for example, or on the other hand just getting a regular (non aviation-)job. I had to go through hell for five years before I finally decided to pay my own TR. I had to either quit flying or get a job as a pilot, fast. Since the first option was out of the question, I was forced to do this. It was a matter of economy, (lack of) experience and the fact that it is virtually impossible to get a job in the region where I live. So please don't come here and tell us that you have had to work your way up, and we're just paying our way in to the shiny jet cockpit. Don't forget there's a selection and interview to pass, and if we were sooo dangerous, how come this is not a big safety issue with the related airliners. Because it's not.
Everyone have their own reasons, know who you're dealing with before you start generalizing.