EZY to cancel TRSS in the future?
 

Good evening,
I got this idea during a flight today... I am to start for eJ in a near future and since I am a turboprop I accepted the TRSS and all "money loan" concerning that issue. :ugh:
Thinking of the market for the pilots, especially in England, it seems that the companys are starting to have some problems in finding pilots. Could this now mean that EZY (and other companys) will have to stop hireing non type rated pilots via a TRSS and start paying for the TR:s? :uhoh:
Any idea anyone? Because this could actually make a big difference in joining a company today and in a year or so... Economically anyway... :confused:
Low and slow

easyJet got away with rip off scheme like this after 9/11 but now the Pilot market is back on the move, I would be looking else where.

Only sign onto these schemes as last choice...........

I had applied recently, only to be told that due to the "High Calibre of applicants" they could not process my application further"

Which is strange, as many others from my airline who have recently applied have less expreience, hours, types etc, all at least got an interview.

Nothing to do with not ticking the TRSS Box then !

Why would anyone shaft themselves with a 5 year Bond, 5 year reduced salary and no pospect of a Command for 5 years???

If they start taking on Direct Entry Pilots again I may reconsider but at the moment, Thanks but No Thanks.:hmm:

Hi Bad R, are you 737 or 319 rated?just curious. When did you apply?cheers.

There is nothing in the TRSS agreement that I am aware of which prevents getting command within 5 years. (Although DEC's might prevent it!)

With the new pay deal easyjet FO is much more attractive than TP FO, even with the TRSS hanging round your neck.

Next thing on my mind is the following assumption;

a pilot beginning the TRSS and a year later easyJet decides to cancel the TRSS and starts paying for non-rated pilots their TR.

What about the piltos who just before signed a TRSS? :eek:

:(

Easy is now taking on people on direct entry saleries.
I know one personally who comes with a turboprop background and less than 1000 hours total.

We are hugely short of FO's with many skippers now flying together.
On DE conditions its a good deal, take home just over £3000.
You'll work hard but hey...you know that!

I'm on the TRSS and do I feel annoyed that someone else with less than a third of my experience is being paid £5000 more than me per annum and bonded for 3 years instead of 5.....hell yes.
Do I have a leg to stand on....No of course not.
They are not a charity and will definatly not give away money if they do not legally need to, to think any other way is niave.

I have a contract between myself only and Easy. I sighned it knowing full well what the deal was at a time when the market was different. a bit like fixing your mortagage rates for five years only to find the interest rates drop...tough!
Its rubbish but its life...there is absolutly no way Easy will ever pay back or change my contract before its 3 more years are up.
Options? Stay and get over it or leave.....
Our choice.

And time to command is not 5 years, Its far less that that.

Quattro

Cancelling TRSS?
 

Rumour is the only thing EZY will cancel is flights due to lack of crew... :{ :ugh:

I assume you are one of the many who joined BALPA? If I were you I would be quizzing the CC about such issues. If there are enough of you involved (which I suspect there is), then I would think you have a chance of getting the CC on-side pushing the company for a bit more 'fairness' if you all want easy to become a career airline....

Just my thoughts.

PP

Pilot Pete,

I appreciate what you have said but we have to be realistic.

If we are on minimum rest and call crewing they say "its legal, are you refusing the duty?" There is no such thing as fairness anymore, there is legal and there is illegal. Black and white.

At least you know where you stand I suppose.

There are some good guys but they only have so much influence.

BALPA couldn't manage a career airline pay deal so I fail to see how they will get me and the others out of a legal contract we all signed.
Apparently there are around 300 of us on TRSS.

£5000 x 300= £1,500,000 a year they arn't obliged to pay....dreamworld!

Quattro

True, but that's the whole point of NEGOTIATING more limiting agreements through your elected CC. You can't negotiate a 'career airline' terms and conditions within a year of all joining together, it takes many years to negotiate better overall terms and conditions, BUT the CC can only negotiate betterment with the support of the members. If the members don't tell the CC what their priorities are the CC can't decide what to push for and when. It's an ongoing process, which I am sure at times will appear frustrating to many of the minority groups within your membership.

All the best.

PP

Well strictly speaking it's not a bond, it's a loan (kind of).

But it does mean that unlike a bonded pilot, a TRSS pilot can leave anytime and take the loan with them, not paying anything to the company.

Whereas a bonded pilot would in theory have to pay the balance of the bond if leaving before the 3 years of the life of the bond.

Yeah, but if the bonded pilot stays for the period of the bond they pay nothing. If the TRSS pilot stays for the term of the loan, they pay. I fthey leave before the term of the loan, they pay. That's the difference.

PP

Actually, I know one that did many years ago (14 to be precise). He flew for another carrier prior to EZY and was and still is well regarded.

He states that it was money well spent (but a type rating was 50% cheaper back then). I wonder if he would pay for it at today's rates?

Gentlemen! It's not quite clear explained on the easy web... can anybody pour some light here? If easyjet hires non type rated pilots with enough jet experience as DEFO or DEC, do they go through TRSS scheme, or just 10% of the basic salary cut applies :confused:

The salary for SFO's on TRSS is 38019 pounds plus 5000 pounds. So you actually have the same salary as a DESFO but you have 5000 pounds tax free to pay of your loan. On top of this the salary will increase with a further 4% on 01-10-2006.

I don't think this is too bad for a LCC......:ok:

JVDS : Kind of but you fall for the same trap as everyone else. Yes you get £38k + £5k, but this is not the same as DE SFO. For the simple fact that they don't then contribute around £5700/year to a loan repayment.

In simple numbers before tax, over the 5 years when compared to a DE SFO who joined on the same day as yourself and remaining a SFO for the 5 years you will be minus approximately (if it takes 2 months training for your base check to happen):

(? say £6000) - 2 months salary from your old job
(? say £6000) - 2 months salary from easyJet (you don't get paid, they do)
£28500 - TRSS loan + interest
£1750 - less in your pension fund (7% x £5000/year)
= approx £42250 less than a DE SFO (and i am sure we found some other little things you don't get but have forgotten)

Effectively you give a working year of your life to easyJet for nothing, zip, nada (ie 1 years salary = approx £42k, or you work 6 years but get paid for 5, and with our roster thats what it feels like). You might get another 4% in October, but the DE SFO also gets 4%, and don't lose your medical or drop dead from the non fatiguing roster cause you guessed it, it is based on your basic salary which again is £5000 less than the DE SFO.

You have to look at the TRSS from every angle to make an informed decision about accepting it. The reason easyJet love it is cause it works in their favour, not because they want to help you out. The secret is to use it for what you want (like they are finding out at the moment) and then bugger off somewhere that suits you better.

baronrouge : depends on what kind of jet. Equivalent B737/A319 then you might get away with it. Smaller than this then probably TRSS. We had MD80 guys that went DE SFO rather than TRSS, however Embraer or CRJ then TRSS. The 90% for 6 months applies regardless of entry method and will apply again on upgrade to Captain.

It works in their favour and is also quite clever in it's detail. It confuses a lot of people and would not have the same effect if they simply said:

"All new SFO's will now get £43000, but those without type ratings (or big jet time, possibly) will have to pay for them."

Cause that's what the TRSS scheme basically means.

The other thing that is very annoying is the fact that they charge 23K for the rating?!!

What do you reckon the going rate for a bulk bought zero flight time bus rating is?
I'd reckon on about ten grand?

This is a big money maker for easy.......

three hundred ish guys on it at prob a 10 grand profit per head?

lovely jubbly!! 3 million smakers!

Yup, and how come a non-type-rated pilot with lots of big-jet hours goes direct entry and then only has a £17,000 bond??? Someone still has to pay for the type rating so surely it should be £23,000. (Or, even better, TRSS should be £17,000 ;) )

But not only that. The £23,000 includes a fee for doing the Advanced Handling Course, but not everyone is obliged to do that and they still pay £23,000!

baronrouge : depends on what kind of jet. Equivalent B737/A319 then you might get away with it. Smaller than this then probably TRSS. We had MD80 guys that went DE SFO rather than TRSS, however Embraer or CRJ then TRSS. The 90% for 6 months applies regardless of entry method and will apply again on upgrade to Captain.[/quote]

Thanks mate! thanks everybody for the comments... I've got 6t on AVRO/RJ... it's not MD80 yet... anybody avoided TRSS with similar experience???

BR

I inquired for a friend with 3500tt, about 1500 Bae146 hours and was told only three days ago that he would go on TRSS, and yet I also know a ex Saab 340 chap with 500 hours whose DE with Easy about five months ago.

Dunno whats going on.

Oh look, there goes those goalposts again.........

I am the same 700 + hours on RJ100 Total Time of 2500+, just been advised that this is not classified as medium jet....so only TRSS for me...

Have to let it slip in this instance I guess. It would mean I get a airbusrating, bonded for 3 years and less money than I have now...


:D

teis,

You are kidding me? They want you to do trss even though you have multi jet multi crew time??? Not when I signed up three years ago.

No wonder my mates in the LHS are having to fly more often in the RHS!:ugh:

Same here I'm afraid...

4700 Hours total, 3000 on BAe146 (1900 of which are command) and I was only offered TRSS. Simply couldn't afford to take up the 'offer'.

Yet we keep hearing how short of F/Os ezy are?

Unfortunately, it's a bit too much of a money-making scam.

rhythm,

How long ago was that?

Exactly 24 hours...

A few years back they were taking on 146 Captains as DEC on the 737.
Oh how times have changed. I'm sure they will change yet again, as they have done regarding the "If you have already applied and were unsuccessful, then you are barred from applying again" routine.

If they are as short of guys as you all say they are, then either they have to review their criteria Yet Again or cancel a Sh1t load of flights and start "down sizing".:D

The thing is though, I really wanted to work for them. But with this being the only offer I more or less feel betrayed already.

Oh and by the way the Fokker 100 is good enough to enter as DEP, yet the RJ isn't......:{

Hundredpercent,

I was offered the position almost exactly a year ago..

...couldn't take the position immediately due to personal circumstances so was put into the hold pool, but now I have decided that it is too much of a pay drop with the added bonus of £23k loans against your name.

If they re-assess their requirements and decide to offer DEP positions, I will re-think my decision.

teis:

More than one of their current TRI/TREs joined easyJet as direct entry captains with only BAe146 experience.

Perhaps your face did not fit?

JW411,

Maybe not, but I don't think they have seen my face yet..:8....as I have not been to the selection day....but this is what they offered me before coming to the interview.

In this case I don't even think it's worth going there. Two day selection for nothing, because I can't simply enough afford the offer.

Regards,

Teis.

If Teis is being totally honest, all I can assume is that Easy recruitment doesnt know its a*se from its elbow:ok:

Typical of airline recruitment departments all over really......

Teis apply to www.flymonarch.com, they will take you with that kind of experience:)

Filled in the application 2 days ago....hope to hear something soon.

cheers.

I see on Aviation jobs .com that Easy are recruiting 737-300/900 and Airbus DEP's
They still require 500 hrs on type though:confused:

Ah yes the old easy/146/ctc saga crops up again. Total BS. The story supposedly goes that when Debonair went bust, Easy took on a load of ex 146 drivers and supposedly had problems with them therefore every 146 pilot in Europe is crap in the orange and white world of Lootown. Add to that the fact that CTC don't like them either because it didn't have 737 written on the side of it..'so it must be crap' and you have the double whammy. Now mix into that a recruitment department where most think that 146's have 2 props on them and the sun rises in the west and a genuinely misguided belief that people actually want to pay to work for easyjet and what do you get??
Try Titan 737 and 757 (an the odd globespan 76) subs for the summer and 60+ flights a week cancelled.:D
Factor into that the 'acceptable' attrition rate of 10+ pilots a month leaving, not enough trainers to train the recruits and a roster pattern that has left the remaining crews maxed out and you get....orange meltdown:ugh:
Once good outfit, gone bad.:*

What you have to remember is that contrary to popular belief, easyJet are not scraping the bottom of the barrel. What they are looking for are experienced 737NG and A320 rated pilots - and they are going to be looking a long time! There is no shortage whatsoever of low-houred frozen ATPLs applying. Regarding the RJ/146, easyJet's experience with pilots from there was not altogether positive (before anyone gets on their high horse - I used to fly the 146). Nonetheless some, but not all, of the people recruited either failed the course completely or struggled greatly. As we all know, it only takes a few to ruin it for everyone.

I would not accept carmanfly's characterisation of the situation of 'orange meltdown' or 'once a good outfit, gone bad'. From where I sit, easyJet is the best it has ever been to work for and I personally am very happy here. There have been some significant management errors in terms of crewing levels that are coming back to bite us in a big way this summer. The subbing-in of Titan, Thomas Cook etc is frankly a disgrace brought about by too lean crewing levels. I fully expect someone at a high level to fall on his sword over this, and if he does not do so some assistance from the CEO may be provided! Nonetheless, from a worker bee's perspective, I have a great job day to day and will gladly take this job any day over many of the other options out there. I still believe that next to BA and Virgin, this is one of the best airlines to work for in the UK.

What we all need to recognise is that pilot recruitment is essentially an issue of supply and demand. The name of the game for any company is to pay the least it can get away with in order to minimise costs. As long as there are sufficient people willing to sign up to TRSS, there will be no change to the policy. You can argue the rights and wrongs of it, but that is nonetheless the harsh reality of the world we live in.

Norman, your not seriously suggesting that Easy and CTC consider ALL 146 drivers a liability? because a few below standard candidates?

Id be more inclined to believe the (if its not a 737 its crap) argument, as having had a bit to do with CTC, Ive found a certain level of type snobbery to exist
So I guess they are gonna rule out all those Flybe guys who want to move on.

757 Manipulator - your post sums up the frustrations of discussions here on PPrune. It is so important to read what is said and not what you think someone might be wanting to say. Nobody, least of all me as a 146-rated pilot, has suggested, either uimplicitly or explicitly, that easyJet and CTC consider 'all 146 drivers as a liability'. For you to suggest that just raises the ante and is a misrepresenation of what I said.

Forgetting easyJet for a moment, my previous company which is a well-respected jet airline, did not regard 146 time as any 'better' than turbine experience and so it would be fair to say that the 146 is at best regarded as a 'halfway house' within the industry. What I said is that a number of 146 pilots, but by no means all, have experienced some difficulty is tranferring to more complex types such as the 737 or Airbus. As a previously contributor has pointed out, in the past easyJet took 146 pilots as DECs but my understanding is that due to some difficulties that arose they will not be doing that now. Many 146 pilots now fly larger and more complex types and so it would clearly be ludicrous to suggest that because you flew this aircraft at some stage in your career, you are de-facto a worse pilot than someone who has not! I think, however, it would be fair to say that most employers would regard certain other jet types (ie BAC 111s, MD80s, Fokker 100s, other Boeing and Airbus types etc) as more akin to the 737/A319, and therefore provide more relevant experience. RJ/146 time tends to be regarded more in the same light as heavy turboprop time.

Incidentally, we already have loads of ex-FlyBe pilots at easyJet who are highly competent individuals. Indeed some of them have subsequently left us and gone on to fly 777s with BA so clearly they are well thought of.

NSF,

If 146 time is regarded as "heavy turbo prop", howcome BA and Virgin are more than happy to take 146 pilots. Couldn't agree more with the CTC snobbery thing. Shirley (sic) it is the recruitment process that should pick out the "decent" candidates. If Easy consult CTC over the recruitment process, then perhaps it will be Boeing driven. Out in the non-aviation world, recruitment does not take the "I drive a bigger car than you" direction. At the end of the day TRSS is purely and simply an accountancy driven fact of aviation life and it stings the potential employee well and truly where it hurts - how does that encourage people to stay at Easy.

If I do have to swallow that bitter pill, I may have to and go the TRSS route. But CANCELLING TRSS would be an extremely good thing for both moral and loyalty and perhaps even safety.

I would though dearly like to know where all that £23,000 goes to. And on top of that where on earth does the cut from the reduced salary go to........

:confused: :confused: :confused: