Fast Jet to Long Haul - thoughts/advice?
 

Gentlemen,

I would appreciate some wise word from those who blatantly know far more of the civilian long haul world than I. I am due to leave the world of fast jets towards the end of 08 with somewhere around 2000 hrs at age 34. QFI (filth I know, but not as bad as QWIs:) ) and hopeully an A2 if I can swing it. Will have done 2 back to back instruction tours (Tac Wpns at Valley then frontline OCU overseas) and will leave with the intention of joining straight to long haul and not bothered about living overseas. Phew.

Now the questions: Virgin - is 2500hrs a hard cut off? Should I try for a medium to short haul outfit initially to increase the hours? Is there a pro/ anti military feeling to any of the carriers out there? Has anyone been caught out by small print/ rules/ hours etc and wishes they had done some things differently?

I would appreciate any advice as time drags on and need to start making plans so when I become a Mr (from the dizzy heights of Flt Lt...) I am suitably prepared. Thanks in advance.

Check your private mail.

Good luck,

Twieke

The only real plane is one with a trigger and a pickle button.

Twieke,

Sooooo right. However, don't think the RAF will be bothered offering me another job so I need to sort my life out ahead of schedule. Besides, having a ball at the moment - 30 degree HE strafe on goggles anyone?:E

Great tip. Avoid making comments like Twiekes in public or everyone will think you're a plonker, and if you do make it into a long haul airline you won't get a landing.

PS We call them 'aircraft'.

Don't go longhaul except on holiday - it's brain death.

2500 hours is pretty much a minimum, even for FJ pilots. Remember, you are competing against Airbus and Boeing qualified people with three times your hours. The days of FJ mates getting a fairly easy ride into the company are long gone. That said, nothing ventured...!

Assuming you are rejected for hours, there are several companies that would happily consider you. I'm not aware of any overt anti-military bias at company level, but you will experience it from some individuals. Steer clear of WIWOT stories and negative comparisons between civilian and military life and you shouldn't get too much grief. Save your two-handed conversations for Sqn reunions and the odd day when the other pilots on board share your provenance!

As for long-haul and what it's like, stick 'Virgin' in the advanced search dialogue, look at titles only, and this forum only, over the last year; you'll get plenty to read.

Hand solo

It was meant in a humurous way. I am a commercial pilot for 6 years now (last 3 years on long haul) and I do get my landings. The statement still stands though :D
Heard it for the first time from a teacher at ppsc in Bournemouth when I was doing my atpl prep.

Happy landings,
Twieke

I appologise for not being native english. You can change plane by aircraft if you like.

Hand Solo - you need to chill out mate. You, alas, will be the one thought the plonker as people may think you tried to get into the RAF but failed. Scroggs - very good advice. Twieke, don't worry - any ex-fast jet guy knows exactly where you are coming from. The truth is that the airlines are full of people who once flew fast jets but now fly 747s, 777s. The overwhelming majority make the transition very easily and are a delight to be around. There are always one or two who spoil it for the rest - but is that not the case the world over? It is also true that the overwhelming majority of civil guys who never darkened the door of the military are great people too. Sadly, there are a few bitter and twisted ones who have a loathing of all ex-military pilots based on some personal slight from the past.

By the way - if you go long haul you will never again have to endure the humiliation of being number 4 at Wainfleet and getting '500 at 6' in front of your mates! I still miss the trips to Deci - but I daresay LA and Hong Kong will do instead. Very best of luck in the future.

NSF,
Very true re the guys you work with. You get the odd plonker from anywhere?

Twieke....that goes along with such classics as:
"There only 2 types of aircraft, fighters and targets!"

Im at Cathay & ex-mil. Cathay recognise that FJ mates dont get the hours of civil counterparts. I do not however agree with the quality vs quantity argument you sometimes hear from the mil lads.

You are about to jumps through the same hoops as everyone else......it doesnt matter if you flew the Eurofighter, were a skipper at easydeath on a 737 or flew light twins around the Australian outback and humped kangaroos!
Once you get to the interview its a level playing field. You'll have to prove your worth as much as the next chap/lass.

As far as life in the cockpit.....nearly everyone has fab stories of daring do, no matter their background.
I quite enjoy everyones 'dits', FJ war-stories & dodgy Islanders bashing around Papua New Guinea.
It becomes patently obvious that the civy types cut their teeth flying in rediculous locations too.....instead of being shot at, they flew the worlds most underpowered aircraft with little to no support out of strips with no options and no bang-seat! (and that gets some respect immediately)

Its a personality game and the idyits come from all walks. Some civies have a chip on the shoulder and some mil types have a superiority complex. Both types become billy-no-mates very quickly on layovers.

BUT the goodnews is that the recruiting process weeds out 99% of the muppets and therefore 10hrs locked in the pointy end is by and large entertaining & educational. (and lets be honest, often tediously boring....but at least youre sharing the pain!!)

Quite honestly, Ive have never seen what all the fuss is about. Some people seem to bring out the worse in others..........and they always seem to fly with the worst crews!
Perhaps, if thats the case, some introspection might be in order!

Suits you Sir.

As a non-fast jet pilot, what I have seen is the following. Ex-forces chaps generally get an extra allowance for their hours as civvy hours generally start at push-back or taxy and stop when you get to the stand. They generally whizz through their training, and companies generally give credit for that. They generally interview pretty well and get the jobs they are asked to attend selection for. But quite a few are a pain to fly with until they realise that it is multi-crew, then they become (according to cabin crew), just as abnoxious as the rest of us!

One thing to remember is that when you are being interviewed, a company is not trying to see what sort of pilot you are. Having being an RAF pilot, they know you're good! They are trying to see what sort of person you are. Interviewers in a company like Virgin use the interview to try and decide if they could sit next to you on a flightdeck for 8 hours. It's a ****** filter.

Remember that just prior to walking into the interview and you should be alright!

The other thing to hoist on board is that it doesn't matter how hot a rip-**** you are/have been. Commercial flying is quite different. The aim is NOT to have to call upon an ex-military pilot's undoubted first-class airmanship and handlng ability. It is all about AVOIDANCE of tight corners and risky situations and how well you handle the HUMAN aspects of the work and overall management of the flight.

I've done both - ex-Harrier, ex- Tornado, ex-QWI, ex FO 757/767, current capt A319/320/321, ex training captain. Probably just about to fly turbo-prop for the first time in my (so far) 34-year career.

My earlier comment still stands: Fly longhaul only on holiday; it's brain-death as a pilot!

NSF - I'm as chilled as they come mate and never tried to join the RAF. Just sat through one too many sim checks with ex-FJ drivers who wanted to offer some 'training feedback' whilst unable to fly straight and level in a fly-by-wire jet! These types are recognised as being the exception, not the rule, but no sense in 308Win marking himself out as an exception before demonstrating he's the rule.

Twieke - point taken. Apologies.;)

I get to fly with lots of ex RAF & lots of civvie trained guys. Most from both sides are pretty good, but there are also some prats from both sides as well.

However the "In the RAF........" stories can get a little tiresome so are best avoided!!

308 mate, suggest you avoid long haul and BA both. Try First Choice, lots of ex fj mates there, and a fortunate minimum of Hand Solo types whose knowledge of real flying is only matched by their arrogance. Fortunately, his type too is a minimum in most companies. Long haul is death by a thousand cuts, and the extra dosh is no longer enough to compensate. (Allowances tend not to equal LOA or HLA).
Priority should be to find a company which is not up its ass, and which employs like minded souls. Beware anything which may ever be bought by BA.
Final point - all civil flying is a death by 1000 cuts. You will miss real aviation more than you ever dreamed, and all the HM hassle will seem like flea bites compared to operating with the substandard but overweening dross you will be operating with (well, most of the time anyway.). Look forward to sucked teeth at more than 25 degres of bank, or more than a few thousand feet per min, look forward to ridiculous management, (makes the Station Commander look like a wise old owl) oh what the hell, sign on as spec aircrew!:D

Yeah, listen to Corelli and give BA a wide berth. All those ex-RAF and RN types commanding our jumbos must be mad! I mean who wants to spend a day off down route skiing or sitting on a beach with a hangover when you could be spending the whole night on a TFS there and back or doing 4 sectors through FRA in LVPs.

Airline jobs galore...?
 

Truly amazing that RAF jocks can actually chose an airline to work at. In earlier times beggars were not in a position to choose as such; we would be glad to get one job offer out of 20 applications sent....:{

As a leaver from the military you also get a head start with BA applications as you should have access to interview questions, maths tests, sim profiles etc.

Seems a bit unfair but that is the way it is.

As someone with a non-military background I have flown with all types over the last sixteen years and the vast majority of ex-military types do their homework and convert to civvy flying very easily.

You get the odd ex Wing Commander that thinks he should be Flight Ops Director after six months but they soon get the message.

Cuillin
 

Why you think/imply the Military guys get "special" access to selection info?

Cuillan:

Like wiggy I am intrigued to know what special help ex-RAF pilots get in order to join BA.

Please don't be shy and let us all benefit from your knowledge or are you just spouting another urban myth?

Grapevines work in a variety of workplaces, not just the military!

I'll just hold up my hand for longhaul. The lifestyle suits me, and I still like going to far-flung destinations and (sometimes) getting a few days there. There's no doubt that your flying skills do atrophy, but on the other hand you have time to go and fly something more interesting privately if you wish. I get more - much more - time at home than my shorthaul friends, I don't work to a 5 on 2 off roster of earlies or lates, I see my kids, and I get to the pub. Life is good!

scroggs:

I am well aware of grapevines but Cuillan seems to be suggesting something more overt than just putting in a word for an old buddy.

If I were a young man trying to get into BA I should be very p+ssed off if I thought that RAF pilots got prior knowledge of the interview procedure, the maths test etc. etc.

Mind you, I did it the other way round. I went through the BOAC process in 1959 but decided that I would have more fun in the RAF. I was not wrong.

Coming back at this since there has been no reply from Cuillin: In the days before the internet there is no doubt that the RAF guys perhaps had the advantage of crewroom banter, or scroggs's "grapevine", to get a vague idea of what they were in for, but certainly not detailed info such as "interview questions" and" maths tests". From memory the Company sent the sim profiles out to everyone selected to go forward to that stage of assessment ( I'm talking late 80's :( )

Nowadays with the www and forums such as this I reckon its a fairly level playing field.

Seems to me, Cullin, you are suggesting something more underhand so come on, you ran this up the flagpole, how about an answer?

308win

Whatever you do in whatever airline, try to avoid saying "well I have had the finest training in the world old chap."

Guaranteed to p**s folk off faster than you can say knife. Also untrue as your training was for the job you used to do, not the one you are about to do.

Most airlines are so desperate for pilots, they'll take anybody these days.

LJ

You might like to start by acknowledging that there are "Ladies" as well as Gentlemen flying civilian aircraft and some of them are going to be your Captains / Training Captains for the next decade! Whilst your at it be prepared for people alot younger than you to be senior to you.

You may also like to prepare yourself for the fact that shouting at people doesn't work, nor is anyone deferential to your previous rank except ex Airforce mates.

You will get people sucking their teeth at high angles of bank etc because passengers don't like it nor do the management. Be prepared for your skills to be judged in relation to safety and passenger comfort rather than other datum’s you may be accustomed to.

The fact that you have sought advice and acknowledge that there will be differences between your old and new lives indicates that you will probably be one of the good ones. Enjoy.

Try FR Aviation for a few years if you need some more turbine time. They welcome military experience. The Falcon job should be fairly familiar whilst the Flight Inspection task (www.flightprecision.co.uk) is great for developing a deeper understanding of ILS/VOR/DME approaches. FPL fly all round Europe so you'll visit at least 50 different airfields a year and get an MCC exemption due to the mandatory two crew operation.

Simple source for the info - the guys who are leaving the RAF and were being given their 'Preparation for Civilian Life' lessons or whatever they call it. The guys I have spoken to (maybe it was more available at some squadrons/units than others) had the vast majority of the information available to them before they even submitted an application to BA.

I don't think it is a level playing field either!

Sorry for the slow reply but I don't sit down and read pprune every day.

I reckon that wears off anyway... any Wg Cdr with 2 stripes trying to assert his rank wouldn't last 5 minutes, and no-one would be listening ;)

Cuillin,

I'm about to leave the RAF and I've been applying for a number of jobs. I've just done the 'Resettlement' training you mention and I was NOT given any inside information regarding actual interview questions, copies of BA's numeric reasoning papers or any such thing! In the last 6 months though half a dozen pals have made it into Virgin or BA and I have quizzed them mercilessly about what happened - but that's as far as my exalted position of being a military bloke allows me to go to get information. They didn't have a secret inside line either and are from more than one station, but we'd all done sh!tloads of research.

As for me, I've managed to use the info I gleaned to get through the assessment day for BA and I'm now waiting for a sim date. The best place for info without doubt was the thread on PPrune! Unforunately, still a stunning silence from Virgin. But how lucky would I have to be to get a choice?!!

Just as a summing up, as this will be my last post on this subject, but I was given several sheets of alpha-numeric BA questions by a colleague who had left the military. He was subsequently successful in his application to BA. The information he had available had given him a 'heads-up' on about 90% of the questions. He also had available info on sims and interview questions. I didn't use the information but passed it on to a non-military applicant who subsequently found the testing a breeze.

My belief is that it was all done unofficially and was passed around between colleagues at the base.

Organisational skills at it's best.

I applied to BA in 1990, didn't get in (unfortunately) and is the last time I applied.

Useful tip gleamed for the numerical reasoning - there are a couple of questions that are deliberately created to slow you down. Miss them out and carry on with the rest and with the time available you will get sufficient marks to pass the test. Even if you have missed a few out.

So after all that, we are saying that the guys in the RAF spoke to their mates about what to expect at the interview. Not exactly a huge revelation.

What you will find, is that on a squadron where you all know each other, and meet up regularly, people will go out of their way to help mates with interview questions and tests. This is really a reflection on the camaraderie felt amongst military pilots.

With the large number of RAF pilots leaving at present, no wonder a large pool of knowledge is being collected.

People leaving any airline could do this to their previous colleagues(and may do for all I know).

I did FJ to Long Haul. I worked on the principle that 14hrs on autopilot with a take-off and landing at each end and some days off beat multi-sector days. Other guys I know take the opposite view. Had I stayed in the mil I would have ended up pushing paper clips around or as the knackered old git in the corner of the crew room who got a cold whenever 'G' was mentioned. When I first started flying the big jets it was all new and interesting, now it can be brain death. I have only encountered one guy with an anti-mil attitude but he is just an arse all the rest, from wherever they come, have been true gents. There are some brilliant pure civvy pilots and some who think they are; just like in the mil.

I enjoy laying over in my favourite cities and whilst I work harder in the airline now than 5 years ago, I still get a better quality of life than I did on a squadron. The fact is that you may not get much satisfaction from operating the aircraft so you might as well go for whichever fits in with your lifestyle needs. Own bed, days off etc.

Folks often quote the 2 buckets theory for leaving the mil. I made my decision to go long haul based on the fact that I used to live to work, now I work to live. The attraction has gone in a pure flying sense, I am now a systems manager but I see more of my family and have more QT which is all I wanted.:ok:

To all who took the time to post replies, thanks for your input. Amusing, informative and food for thought definitely. No doubt things may change in the next couple of years, but forewarned is forearmed and all that crap. Currently watching my life flash before my eyes several times a day as the studes try to kill me is enough to keep me amused, but am sure it will wear off. :} Thanks again to all it is much appreciated.

As for the Long Haul / Short haul question, don't froget there's the type of flying involved to consider as well. Charter vs scheduled or freight or corporate. You need to sit down to discuss what it would mean to you and your other half (if there is one).

In 5 years since leaving, I've tried long and short haul, pax and freight, glass cockpits and classic jets. Sounds like quite an acheivement in such a short time - it was! I was made redundant from my first job before I had actually left the RAF!

Forget the aircraft type, generally they are all pretty similar. But if you like flying, you will get pretty bored with one or two landings a month.

Personally, found the fatigue too much to cope with on long haul, so the switch to short haul made my life much better, And I've started to enjoy flying again. Talk to guys who have left in similar circumstances to you. That should give you a feel for whether you may like a job.