Fast Jet to Long Haul - thoughts/advice?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: UK
Fast Jet to Long Haul - thoughts/advice?
Gentlemen,
I would appreciate some wise word from those who blatantly know far more of the civilian long haul world than I. I am due to leave the world of fast jets towards the end of 08 with somewhere around 2000 hrs at age 34. QFI (filth I know, but not as bad as QWIs
) and hopeully an A2 if I can swing it. Will have done 2 back to back instruction tours (Tac Wpns at Valley then frontline OCU overseas) and will leave with the intention of joining straight to long haul and not bothered about living overseas. Phew.
Now the questions: Virgin - is 2500hrs a hard cut off? Should I try for a medium to short haul outfit initially to increase the hours? Is there a pro/ anti military feeling to any of the carriers out there? Has anyone been caught out by small print/ rules/ hours etc and wishes they had done some things differently?
I would appreciate any advice as time drags on and need to start making plans so when I become a Mr (from the dizzy heights of Flt Lt...) I am suitably prepared. Thanks in advance.
I would appreciate some wise word from those who blatantly know far more of the civilian long haul world than I. I am due to leave the world of fast jets towards the end of 08 with somewhere around 2000 hrs at age 34. QFI (filth I know, but not as bad as QWIs
) and hopeully an A2 if I can swing it. Will have done 2 back to back instruction tours (Tac Wpns at Valley then frontline OCU overseas) and will leave with the intention of joining straight to long haul and not bothered about living overseas. Phew.Now the questions: Virgin - is 2500hrs a hard cut off? Should I try for a medium to short haul outfit initially to increase the hours? Is there a pro/ anti military feeling to any of the carriers out there? Has anyone been caught out by small print/ rules/ hours etc and wishes they had done some things differently?
I would appreciate any advice as time drags on and need to start making plans so when I become a Mr (from the dizzy heights of Flt Lt...) I am suitably prepared. Thanks in advance.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: UK
Twieke,
Sooooo right. However, don't think the RAF will be bothered offering me another job so I need to sort my life out ahead of schedule. Besides, having a ball at the moment - 30 degree HE strafe on goggles anyone?
Sooooo right. However, don't think the RAF will be bothered offering me another job so I need to sort my life out ahead of schedule. Besides, having a ball at the moment - 30 degree HE strafe on goggles anyone?
Joined: May 2000
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From: Camp X-Ray
Great tip. Avoid making comments like Twiekes in public or everyone will think you're a plonker, and if you do make it into a long haul airline you won't get a landing.
PS We call them 'aircraft'.
PS We call them 'aircraft'.
Last edited by Hand Solo; 22nd February 2006 at 18:43.
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From: Suffolk UK
2500 hours is pretty much a minimum, even for FJ pilots. Remember, you are competing against Airbus and Boeing qualified people with three times your hours. The days of FJ mates getting a fairly easy ride into the company are long gone. That said, nothing ventured...!
Assuming you are rejected for hours, there are several companies that would happily consider you. I'm not aware of any overt anti-military bias at company level, but you will experience it from some individuals. Steer clear of WIWOT stories and negative comparisons between civilian and military life and you shouldn't get too much grief. Save your two-handed conversations for Sqn reunions and the odd day when the other pilots on board share your provenance!
As for long-haul and what it's like, stick 'Virgin' in the advanced search dialogue, look at titles only, and this forum only, over the last year; you'll get plenty to read.
Assuming you are rejected for hours, there are several companies that would happily consider you. I'm not aware of any overt anti-military bias at company level, but you will experience it from some individuals. Steer clear of WIWOT stories and negative comparisons between civilian and military life and you shouldn't get too much grief. Save your two-handed conversations for Sqn reunions and the odd day when the other pilots on board share your provenance!
As for long-haul and what it's like, stick 'Virgin' in the advanced search dialogue, look at titles only, and this forum only, over the last year; you'll get plenty to read.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: earth
Hand solo
It was meant in a humurous way. I am a commercial pilot for 6 years now (last 3 years on long haul) and I do get my landings. The statement still stands though
Heard it for the first time from a teacher at ppsc in Bournemouth when I was doing my atpl prep.
Happy landings,
Twieke
I appologise for not being native english. You can change plane by aircraft if you like.
It was meant in a humurous way. I am a commercial pilot for 6 years now (last 3 years on long haul) and I do get my landings. The statement still stands though
Heard it for the first time from a teacher at ppsc in Bournemouth when I was doing my atpl prep.
Happy landings,
Twieke
I appologise for not being native english. You can change plane by aircraft if you like.
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Hand Solo - you need to chill out mate. You, alas, will be the one thought the plonker as people may think you tried to get into the RAF but failed. Scroggs - very good advice. Twieke, don't worry - any ex-fast jet guy knows exactly where you are coming from. The truth is that the airlines are full of people who once flew fast jets but now fly 747s, 777s. The overwhelming majority make the transition very easily and are a delight to be around. There are always one or two who spoil it for the rest - but is that not the case the world over? It is also true that the overwhelming majority of civil guys who never darkened the door of the military are great people too. Sadly, there are a few bitter and twisted ones who have a loathing of all ex-military pilots based on some personal slight from the past.
By the way - if you go long haul you will never again have to endure the humiliation of being number 4 at Wainfleet and getting '500 at 6' in front of your mates! I still miss the trips to Deci - but I daresay LA and Hong Kong will do instead. Very best of luck in the future.
By the way - if you go long haul you will never again have to endure the humiliation of being number 4 at Wainfleet and getting '500 at 6' in front of your mates! I still miss the trips to Deci - but I daresay LA and Hong Kong will do instead. Very best of luck in the future.
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Chamonix
Twieke....that goes along with such classics as:
"There only 2 types of aircraft, fighters and targets!"
Im at Cathay & ex-mil. Cathay recognise that FJ mates dont get the hours of civil counterparts. I do not however agree with the quality vs quantity argument you sometimes hear from the mil lads.
You are about to jumps through the same hoops as everyone else......it doesnt matter if you flew the Eurofighter, were a skipper at easydeath on a 737 or flew light twins around the Australian outback and humped kangaroos!
Once you get to the interview its a level playing field. You'll have to prove your worth as much as the next chap/lass.
As far as life in the cockpit.....nearly everyone has fab stories of daring do, no matter their background.
I quite enjoy everyones 'dits', FJ war-stories & dodgy Islanders bashing around Papua New Guinea.
It becomes patently obvious that the civy types cut their teeth flying in rediculous locations too.....instead of being shot at, they flew the worlds most underpowered aircraft with little to no support out of strips with no options and no bang-seat! (and that gets some respect immediately)
Its a personality game and the idyits come from all walks. Some civies have a chip on the shoulder and some mil types have a superiority complex. Both types become billy-no-mates very quickly on layovers.
BUT the goodnews is that the recruiting process weeds out 99% of the muppets and therefore 10hrs locked in the pointy end is by and large entertaining & educational. (and lets be honest, often tediously boring....but at least youre sharing the pain!!)
Quite honestly, Ive have never seen what all the fuss is about. Some people seem to bring out the worse in others..........and they always seem to fly with the worst crews!
Perhaps, if thats the case, some introspection might be in order!
Suits you Sir.
"There only 2 types of aircraft, fighters and targets!"
Im at Cathay & ex-mil. Cathay recognise that FJ mates dont get the hours of civil counterparts. I do not however agree with the quality vs quantity argument you sometimes hear from the mil lads.
You are about to jumps through the same hoops as everyone else......it doesnt matter if you flew the Eurofighter, were a skipper at easydeath on a 737 or flew light twins around the Australian outback and humped kangaroos!
Once you get to the interview its a level playing field. You'll have to prove your worth as much as the next chap/lass.
As far as life in the cockpit.....nearly everyone has fab stories of daring do, no matter their background.
I quite enjoy everyones 'dits', FJ war-stories & dodgy Islanders bashing around Papua New Guinea.
It becomes patently obvious that the civy types cut their teeth flying in rediculous locations too.....instead of being shot at, they flew the worlds most underpowered aircraft with little to no support out of strips with no options and no bang-seat! (and that gets some respect immediately)
Its a personality game and the idyits come from all walks. Some civies have a chip on the shoulder and some mil types have a superiority complex. Both types become billy-no-mates very quickly on layovers.
BUT the goodnews is that the recruiting process weeds out 99% of the muppets and therefore 10hrs locked in the pointy end is by and large entertaining & educational. (and lets be honest, often tediously boring....but at least youre sharing the pain!!)
Quite honestly, Ive have never seen what all the fuss is about. Some people seem to bring out the worse in others..........and they always seem to fly with the worst crews!
Perhaps, if thats the case, some introspection might be in order!
Suits you Sir.
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Wor Yerm
As a non-fast jet pilot, what I have seen is the following. Ex-forces chaps generally get an extra allowance for their hours as civvy hours generally start at push-back or taxy and stop when you get to the stand. They generally whizz through their training, and companies generally give credit for that. They generally interview pretty well and get the jobs they are asked to attend selection for. But quite a few are a pain to fly with until they realise that it is multi-crew, then they become (according to cabin crew), just as abnoxious as the rest of us!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
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From: Blighty
One thing to remember is that when you are being interviewed, a company is not trying to see what sort of pilot you are. Having being an RAF pilot, they know you're good! They are trying to see what sort of person you are. Interviewers in a company like Virgin use the interview to try and decide if they could sit next to you on a flightdeck for 8 hours. It's a ****** filter.
Remember that just prior to walking into the interview and you should be alright!
Remember that just prior to walking into the interview and you should be alright!
Last edited by Jetdriver; 25th February 2006 at 15:52.
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Hampshire physically; Perthshire and Pembrokeshire mentally.
The other thing to hoist on board is that it doesn't matter how hot a rip-**** you are/have been. Commercial flying is quite different. The aim is NOT to have to call upon an ex-military pilot's undoubted first-class airmanship and handlng ability. It is all about AVOIDANCE of tight corners and risky situations and how well you handle the HUMAN aspects of the work and overall management of the flight.
I've done both - ex-Harrier, ex- Tornado, ex-QWI, ex FO 757/767, current capt A319/320/321, ex training captain. Probably just about to fly turbo-prop for the first time in my (so far) 34-year career.
My earlier comment still stands: Fly longhaul only on holiday; it's brain-death as a pilot!
I've done both - ex-Harrier, ex- Tornado, ex-QWI, ex FO 757/767, current capt A319/320/321, ex training captain. Probably just about to fly turbo-prop for the first time in my (so far) 34-year career.
My earlier comment still stands: Fly longhaul only on holiday; it's brain-death as a pilot!
Last edited by Jetdriver; 25th February 2006 at 15:53.
Joined: May 2000
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From: Camp X-Ray
NSF - I'm as chilled as they come mate and never tried to join the RAF. Just sat through one too many sim checks with ex-FJ drivers who wanted to offer some 'training feedback' whilst unable to fly straight and level in a fly-by-wire jet! These types are recognised as being the exception, not the rule, but no sense in 308Win marking himself out as an exception before demonstrating he's the rule.
Twieke - point taken. Apologies.
Twieke - point taken. Apologies.
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Before or After Defection?
I get to fly with lots of ex RAF & lots of civvie trained guys. Most from both sides are pretty good, but there are also some prats from both sides as well.
However the "In the RAF........" stories can get a little tiresome so are best avoided!!
However the "In the RAF........" stories can get a little tiresome so are best avoided!!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 87
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From: Wouldn't you like to know !
308 mate, suggest you avoid long haul and BA both. Try First Choice, lots of ex fj mates there, and a fortunate minimum of Hand Solo types whose knowledge of real flying is only matched by their arrogance. Fortunately, his type too is a minimum in most companies. Long haul is death by a thousand cuts, and the extra dosh is no longer enough to compensate. (Allowances tend not to equal LOA or HLA).
Priority should be to find a company which is not up its ass, and which employs like minded souls. Beware anything which may ever be bought by BA.
Final point - all civil flying is a death by 1000 cuts. You will miss real aviation more than you ever dreamed, and all the HM hassle will seem like flea bites compared to operating with the substandard but overweening dross you will be operating with (well, most of the time anyway.). Look forward to sucked teeth at more than 25 degres of bank, or more than a few thousand feet per min, look forward to ridiculous management, (makes the Station Commander look like a wise old owl) oh what the hell, sign on as spec aircrew!
Priority should be to find a company which is not up its ass, and which employs like minded souls. Beware anything which may ever be bought by BA.
Final point - all civil flying is a death by 1000 cuts. You will miss real aviation more than you ever dreamed, and all the HM hassle will seem like flea bites compared to operating with the substandard but overweening dross you will be operating with (well, most of the time anyway.). Look forward to sucked teeth at more than 25 degres of bank, or more than a few thousand feet per min, look forward to ridiculous management, (makes the Station Commander look like a wise old owl) oh what the hell, sign on as spec aircrew!
Joined: May 2000
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From: Camp X-Ray
Yeah, listen to Corelli and give BA a wide berth. All those ex-RAF and RN types commanding our jumbos must be mad! I mean who wants to spend a day off down route skiing or sitting on a beach with a hangover when you could be spending the whole night on a TFS there and back or doing 4 sectors through FRA in LVPs.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,627
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From: UTC +8
Airline jobs galore...?
Truly amazing that RAF jocks can actually chose an airline to work at. In earlier times beggars were not in a position to choose as such; we would be glad to get one job offer out of 20 applications sent....
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: UK
As a leaver from the military you also get a head start with BA applications as you should have access to interview questions, maths tests, sim profiles etc.
Seems a bit unfair but that is the way it is.
As someone with a non-military background I have flown with all types over the last sixteen years and the vast majority of ex-military types do their homework and convert to civvy flying very easily.
You get the odd ex Wing Commander that thinks he should be Flight Ops Director after six months but they soon get the message.
Seems a bit unfair but that is the way it is.
As someone with a non-military background I have flown with all types over the last sixteen years and the vast majority of ex-military types do their homework and convert to civvy flying very easily.
You get the odd ex Wing Commander that thinks he should be Flight Ops Director after six months but they soon get the message.