Aer Lingus Recruitment?
 

hey,
just wondering if theres anyone from aer lingus on here who could shed some light on any planned or suspected pilot recruitment in al?i am one of the former cadets from years ago,eager to get back(or at least the shot at getting back in) heard recently about a possible airbus deal.....any info?any idea how the pay/pension would work out?any info would be greatly appreciated,loved it there dying to get back....
thanks in advance
BK

You seriously want to go back to a company that dumped you on the street unceremoniously?
I heard many of your fellow trainees are approaching Commands at other airlines.
What happened to you?

Maxalt, Are you f@#$ing kidding me? After they paid for their training, wages and living expenses while they were training. Pretty good deal I would have said.

hey,
yeah i do wanna go back,i too have a command with another airline,however i was treated far better by al than i am now...plus the way things are going for pilots,id rather be in an airline where union membership is compulsory....
BK

compulsory union membership

how naive you are.

grow up and get to hell out of this sh1t buisness

And how can you be grateful to an Airline that dumped you on the street.

how naive you are

Yes they paid for this that and the other but remember you also made sacrifices to go work for them.

how naive you are

I suspect that where you are now,is where Aer Lingus will be in 20 years time,but hey, better eat caviar now & !!!!! in 20 years,than keep on troughing the brown stuff for now. All the best with re-adjusting to life in the right-side, depending on your age it's a no-brainer I reckon.

It might've been if the training was actually completed - and they'd been employed, as advertised.
But they weren't, were they.

Those guys went through selection procedures chosen by ALT. They probably represented the top 3% - 5% of the applicant group. Some had careers already which they resigned from, others dropped out of university to accept ALT's offer.
In short, we aren't talking about beggars lifted off the street here, so spare us the boot licking, forelock tugging inferences about what they were entitled to expect.

If you think that having gotten half way into a Cadet Course, which you've dropped out of university, or resigned your job for, only to be turfed out, is a 'pretty good deal' - you are sadly infected with the very mindset that has dragged our professional status into the gutter by devalueing pilots to the equivalent of 'charity cases' or 'hangers on', or a 'potential source of training income' - as in the Ryanair application fee/ type rating fee scam.

Its a two way street mate. ALT selected them and invested in them, expecting a healthy return down the line.

I'm not saying ALT weren't right to drop the trainees under the circumstances, but I'm amazed anyone would want to work for them afterward, much less give up yet another career to take achance on it happening again.

Since the union did nothing to stop you being thrown out the first time why are you so convinced it will be able to do anything in the future? This might be very academic since the chances of EI recruiting in the near future are very slim. There are a LOT of guys on leave of absence so I'm sure they will get the nod first. Lets face it EI is a low cost operator now and any contracts in the future will reflect this.

I believe Aer Lingus sent about one third of their cadets to baesystems in Jerez. Not one of the cadets there did not get to complete their training. That is a fact.

The cadets I knew seemed in no way disgruntled about it either. General attitude was: "ok no job at the end of it but !!!! it we just got €100k of free training + expenses...". Discuss.

Just to clarify, all the cadets in Jerez did finish the course but seen as they were let go before course end dates they did have to pay to something. It ranged from a few hundred euros to a few thousand, depending on a few things one of which was accomodation past estimated course finish date. Two courses were delayed by about a month, one had just finished.

As you say compared to the cost of the course and expenses it was small fry but don't be fooled into thinking the cadets got something for nothing, I'm assured the Oxford cadets also had fees to finish their course also.

I'm guessing the cadets you know are all in gainful employment, and those of us that are do indeed have that attitude because it's worked out for us. Remember not all the cadets have found jobs, there are still a few who haven't been able to get one. A free ATPL isn't worth much if you can't get a job and use it.

hey,

notkahouse,i find it interesting that you repeatedly call me naive,i think you should walk a mile in somebodys shoes before you judge them.you may think me naive,but then again i am happy in this business, and you dont seem to be,so why dont you get out?i am under no illusion as to how this business works,but from my perspective,long term al is the best option,one thing to remember is, that it is a business after all and somtimes bad things can happen,but you have to take the rough with the smooth and not let it turn you bitter as i see happening to so many of my colleagues...


p.s i am lookin for information from people inside the company,not an aerlingus slagging match...

thanks
BK

I don't work for Aer Lingus myself, but have some contacts who do. As I hear it your seniority and allied entitlements have been preserved and you will be offered employment before anyone else. When that might happen is another matter. Your position is a lot better than you might think from some of the comments above (notkahouse being a prime example). IMHO you would do a lot better to ask IALPA for the specifics than to post here.

quote:

____________________________________________

p.s i am lookin for information from people inside the company,not an aerlingus slagging match...

_____________________________________________

got to agree with this guy the forum is losing track :ok:

A free ATPL yep fair enough but they did get treated badly -- like Training Capts sending them home during line training cos they weren't allowed to train them as if they got line checked they would become union members etc etc ....

Anyhow, most have seen the light and they have moved on and done well for themselves getting commands in EZY, Excel and GB and others at EK or Ethiad and Dragonair and BA...

EI is dead man's shoes now -- the old boys have gone early so no commands for a long time and no movement on the fleets so that A330 RHS won't come quickly.

The good days at EI have gone -- Gone forever !

could anyone in the know tell me if there is ANY recruitment going on at Aer Lingus at the moment?

If so, what sort of experience, hours etc.

Cheers

diav, there is none at the moment. When there is any the former cadets will all be offered positions first. When that might be is anyone's guess.

Three more guys with around 7 years seniority under their belt at ALT just quit to go to Etihad! How ironic is that! They could well end up in the RHS with an ex ALT cadet sitting on the left! DOH!!

But wouldn't it be REALLY ironic if the ex-cadet in the LHS is one of these guys pining to return to the ould sod?

Life sure is funny.
:\

What?

This is insane. How can people be cadets, and then fired for no reason? How can people be excited to join something that was unreasonable and fired them as cadets to begin with?

As an analogy, it kind of sounds like this; "The grass looks very green, only to find out it's dead". Then you forget, and say later" The grass looks green again". That's completely crazy.

I've never heard anything so crazy.

It - the "no reason" - was called September 11th. Within days of that event Aer Lingus took the view that the aviation industry was going to change radically and permanently. The then Chief Executive of Aer Lingus (and current C.E.O. of British Airways) believed that Aer Lingus would not survive without severe retrenchment. He took kind of decisive action that most carriers chose not to take at the time. This included cancelling all cadet classes before the pilots concerned formally entered Aer Lingus, redundancy, etc. There was one year of losses and Aer Lingus has been profitable since that time.

It is understandable that the decisions made at that time had very unpleasant consequences for the cadets involved (though nobody ever mentions that there would have been no work for them if they had become full time employees). However, by all accounts their interests have been carefully looked after by IALPA in the interim. Mr Chris I note you are from the U.S. where pilots are furloughed all the time. You may not be aware that such a facility is not available to most carriers outside of the U.S.

As Boy says, I think the reason people are happy to go back is because Aer Lingus did what it had to do at the time - without steps like that, there would be no Aer Lingus to go back to.

Aer Lingus even sold the art work that was contained with in it's head office as part of it's attempt to stay afloat - it wasn't like they made a casual desicion to just shrug off some staff, it really was a matter of life and death for Aer Lingus post September 11th.

Fine in theory - except it doesn't explain why relatively senior F/O's in ALT are still walking out on a monthly basis. And besides those who've already walked there are dozens more still thinking seriously about bailing in the near future.
This, in a company which is reputed to be on the verge of major expansion?? Are they CRAZY??!!

The blood letting at ALT isn't over Boy/CFC...so if you think its a good move - go ahead. Out of the kettle and into the fire.

As an ex-cadet I have to say I hold no grudge against EI for what they had to do post Sept 11th.

I think the decision that each of the 47 cadets makes with regard to returning to EI however, will be mainly based on where they are employed at the time and whether the offer from EI is attractive enough.

From the grapvine, there's plenty of expansion planned in the company with the probability of a few more 330's coming online soon and 777's followed by 787's in the future.

Maxalt, I think you need to check up with your sources of information. It seems to be significantly off the mark.

Ahhh...the old "I know something you don't - but I'm not saying what" tactic. :p

You'll need to get more specific Boy. Don't be coy.

Errrrr ... maxalt, not entirely. :p

I was just saying that my sources tell me that your "take" on Aer Lingus pilot "losses" is completely wrong and asking you the question that naturally arises.

You're still speaking in riddles Boy, but if by 'losses' you mean RESIGNATIONS then I can assure you most vehemently - your information is wrong if you've been told nobody is leaving.

Tell your source to go back and check the A321 F/O roster.

Enough of this tittle tattle then - the point remains - why join a company (with a formal seniority system) which others are walking out of? Can't you take a hint?

Thanks to a conversation with an Aer Lingus source I have twigged where the confusion is coming from. You are referring, I suspect, to a recent publication which details info. about the pilots who took a "voluntary severance" package. If that is what you meant, then you have to accept that this is rather different from the impression created by words such as "pilots leaving on a monthly basis".

BTW I never made claims such as you suggest, I merely expressed surprise at the apparent implications of your posts - which I took to be that things were so bad that people were leaving in droves. Your general tone is repeated by the final sentence of your latest post. You clearly have a "hobby horse" that you want to mount. You're welcome to continue to do so, but I will leave you to go solo.

My dear Boy! I took you for a man-in-the-know, but as you've just revealed - you are working off second hand (incorrect) hearsay and 'publications'.

I'm not referring to any 'publication' at all! I'm referring to first hand factual knowledge. Mates of mine are among the leavers! Others are among the 'looking for options' group.

Sure they took voluntary severance, and got a wedge of cash. But these are not 50 year olds heading out to pasture. They are youngsters with years to go before retirement, and they'll be looking for work.
The money wasn't the push factor - a hundred grand or so won't last a lifetime, but if they're handing out wedge to leave and it suits you to go, HAPPY DAYS.

They are leaving for other reasons. Primarily the lack of prospects, and the poor treatment they've received at the hands of Aer Lingus management over the last few years.

Frankly, most pilots in ALT (the younger ones at least) wouldn't piss on Aer Lingus management right now if they were on fire.
There is a deep rooted and mutual animosity festering between management and pilots in that company, which will poison it for at least the next generation.

This is the legacy of that hero, Willy Walsh.

Dive in.

How dare the company be at the mercy of their operating market!

Fool! (not directed at anyone)

I'm sure that remark wasn't directed at me Re-Heat, so I'll ignore it this time.

As regards market forces, all I'll say is - there's a right and a wrong way to do things. Even the most nasty blows can be softened with a little good will.
It seems the only goodwill extended to these guys was whatever IALPA could negotiate for them....even though they weren't even members at the time.

I remember many years ago meeting an Aer Lingus cadet who gave up a good career in the merchant navy to become a pilot.
Before his training was over the company went into a downturn. They fired him ruthlessly - I won't go into personal details, but believe me, the circumstances were very very sad.

I didn't see him for several years, until one day I was doing a walkaround of my a/c in Dublin.
I bumped right into him before recognising him.

He was loading bags.
He was a baggage handler on the a/c he should've been piloting.

Sick.

Signet, mellow, laid back but this sentence may accidently give the wrong impression to readers:

With respect, that wasn't actually your first post here. This from just 8 months ago - many years after the cadets were, err, released:

This presents an entirely different situation to those reading who simply want to fly and not have to look at other careers or education for extended periods. Readers might well wonder how many months or even weeks have you actually flown professionally since writing that post? Reviewing possibly unjustified inference from inaccurate or misleading implication is just so 'typically PPRuNe' and the reason for the big red words at the bottom of the page.

Regards
rob

PS - If your memory needs jogging think back to the 18th March this year. You also posted twice regarding applying for the CTC scheme.

@Signet 263
I think you'll find that maxalt is an Aer Lingus pilot (at least that's the impression I've gleaned from his previous posts) and so he probably did get sponsored as a cadet back in the good ol' days!

I have to put my hand up and admit that I too am an ex-cadet and one of the famous '44'. You speak very negatively of the company maxalt. If things are really that bad are you also considering moving on to greener pastures? If not, why not?

If the cadets are ever offered their jobs back there are many who wouldn't return, being happy with their current lot, and probably citing some of the reasons you have given for their decision. Off the top of my head there are at least 3 cadets working with BA longhaul, and then a few with Easyjet, Aer Arann, CityJet, Monarch, GB and others. I'm sure that the BA guy's won't be coming back. Out of my class of 10, I'd say about 6 would be interested in getting back to AL. Those that do wish to get back are under no illusion that the company that hired them in 2000 is dead and gone, and that things are not as rosy as they used to be. However for many, the Dublin base, the aircraft type and the money are just three reasons why many would move from their current flying jobs back to AL.

Herecomes the bride - As regards your original question regarding possible recruitment. Whilst there has been no talk of pilot recruitment by the company - believe me that is bound to be on the agenda next year.

All the pilots on Europe are being rostered the maximum possible hours permissable. Whilst not reaching the maximum hours, the A330 pilots are also working harder than in previous years.

The company has quite a few problems to sort out before any recruitment can be considered. First and foremost is how the funds are to be made available for any fleet expansion. This is estimated to be in the region of €2 billion.

Next is where the aircraft are going to come from. Besides the debate over the fleet renewal regarding the A350 or B787, the main problem at the moment is that the company can't get any additional A330's at the moment. The company have also indicated further expansion on Europe.

EI is certainly not dead man's shoes! I'll bet my hat on that one. Until an announcement can be made on exact aircraft numbers, no announcement will be made regarding recruitment. But any idiot will be able to tell you that EI has to expand. That expansion in the future will primarily be on the long haul side of things. Which will require substantial pilot numbers. Due to the seniority system those places will eventually be taken by the existing pilots. So any new recruit to EI will end up on the A320. Airbus pilots will be top of the list followed by suitably qualified experienced airline pilots.

I'd imagine that the company would be swamped with applications from ryanair, aer arran and cityjet. Why you ask, because despite the loss of working conditions and increased productivity since 9/11 - EI is now one of the best payers in Europe and has perhaps the best pension scheme around (a final salary scheme in which each pilot pays 7% and the company pays 21%)

Yes, three pilots (junior on the seniority list) recently resigned to go and work elsewhere. Two in the desert and one stateside. Like any company, for some the grass is always greener, especially when there is the lure of long-haul flying! But as regards a potential exodus - don't think so!

IALPA has stated that regarding any future recruitment, any new joiners will be on the same terms and conditions.

Like all companies, there are problems at EI. But slowly and surely these are being sorted out. WW has left and started to swing his axe elsewhere (watch your back nigel!!!), and the new guy at least knows how to deal with people, as oppossed to being very good at firing people!

EI has dramatically changed since 9/11, but at least it survived and is now a profitable airline with a future. Secondly we have a strong union that has the ability to somewhat protect our livelyhood! How many pilots have that luxury nowadays?

Nice try but no cigar.

Each substantive point ducked - whether ignoring Max's background or the query as to how long you've flown professionally since qualifying.

You closed with the word 'discuss' - don't like it then delete your post. You invited comment. Your second post somehow doesn't seem so relaxed or confident.

You conveyed a certain impression in your 1st post. I debunked it after you having invited comment on it. Readers will make up their own minds as to the merits of what we have written.

I like to fly my 2 seat Jodel - it results in no bitterness.
:ok: :ok:
regards again,
rob

Caught bang to rights, eh Signet! What a spoofer.
When you said you were 'one of the 47' I had my doubts right away anyhow - good work by PPRuNe Towers checking you out. Personally I couldn't be arsed. It seems obvious enough to me that anyone who gets fired during training is unlikely to be as grateful as you claimed to be. Are turkeys voting for Xmas now?

Phoenix rising - so I'm an ALT pilot eh? Would you care to back that up with some evidence - there's a serious outbreak of BS on this thread and you're contributing to it.

As it happens I'm nothing - repeat NOTHING - to do with ALT.
Go on, prove otherwise.

I've plenty of mates there though - and I know whats going on from talking to them.

Milehighdriver -

The ALT pension you refer to - do you seriously believe that future joiners will be hired on the same terms? Seriously??? :E

Not a hope mate - the next intake will be Yellow Packs. Self trained/sponsored, on a decreased package, including a 'do-it-yourself' pension scheme. No more company guarentees or defined benefit schemes for them. Hell, as youngsters they won't care anyhow! They won't even realise they've been shafted for at least 10 years!

My mates in ALT won't put up a fight for them - lets face it, when a bunch of shiny new long haul aircraft + Commands are being dangled in front of the incumbents will they kick it to touch over a yellow packers pension? Not a hope. The incumbents know well that the defined scheme is heading for extinction - pull up the ladder time!

Would I leave ALT if I was there? Given my age, if I was already on the seniority list, good bread, long haul command threatening? Nah - I'd stick it out.

But plenty of younger guys are looking at many more years to command and they're running out of patience. The 3 who just left are only the LATEST 3 to leave - there've been 50 or more youngsters resign in the last 3 years, and PLENTY MORE still waiting to go.

You asked for advice/info? Here it is;
I'm glad I'm near retirement - I wouldn't wanna be starting out in this business today, whether with ALT, FR, or anyone else. The whole shebang is screwed forever more. Don't be fooled by the happy clappers on this thread who see the world through rose tinted spectacles.

@maxalt

I don't have any ambition to prove who you do or do not work for. I couldn't care less. You gave me the impression you were working for ALT from the conviction in your posts on this thread. Sorry if I offended you.

So you, like 'Boy', are also working off second hand knowledge then? Excuse me if I take any facts you post with a pinch of salt then.

You can take it any way you like mate!

I was down the pub last night with one of my ALT mates (cadet trained by ALT btw!).

His mobile phone rang and it was his crewing department asking him if he would come in on a day off (next day) to help them out.

He gave them a rather curt negative response I thought (but then I'm just a big old softy).

WW is gone, but not forgotten in ALT. And even though the new guy might try to patch up relations - he has a helluva job on his hands.

Whats the future for ALT if the pilots would rather **** on the company than dig them out of a tight corner now and again?

I'm no lacky, but I find it amusing when I see the COMMITTMENT the lads in ALT have to sticking it to their employer. Its not like they don't get paid well for coming in for the day - but most would seemingly rather burn the 500 euro than get out of bed for the management.

This is the company thats all 'on the up'?:yuk:

Good heavens, am I the only pprune reader who was under the impression (from maxalt's many 100's of contributions over the years) that maxalt was a long haul pilot with Aer Lingus? Can we assume maxalt is:

- a pilot?
- long haul?
- Irish?
- based in Dublin?
- but which airline? (not too many choices based on the last 4)

Or is he just mates with some pilots? Confused, you will be....

Just curious.

Roger, just for starters, what makes you think I'm based in Dublin? Is it because my 'location' says Dublin?

If it said I was in Timbuktu would you believe it?

You're no Sherlock Holmes.
Keep guessing.

Gosh how intriguing.

Timbuktu eh, how exotic.

You present such a thick smokescreen that I shall just have to give up.....:zzz: