Kos? where is that? ;)

Any 75/76 guys been offered a course and on which fleet? Just wondering why they asked for that type of experience, shorter conversion perhaps.

MAX

Not starting till January, dammit. Guess another working Xmas for me then. At least in 05 we will have some more Junior types to do the dross. :D

Harry

Harry

If you're at LGW, I don't suppose you get so much choice about working at Xmas anyway:=

Bidline Rules OK (and seniority!)

BA Opportunities
 

A friend of mine is in the pool and was phoned by recruitment the other day. They asked him if he would prefer a long or short haul job. Mind you they weren't offering either at the time, just asking.

Has anyone else had a call like this?

As a slight aside...
I have the dubious pleasure of being THE most junior F/O on the B777 fleet at birdseed. Even from where I'm sat, the lifestyle is fabulous. Believe me there is a whole lot more variety than Newark and Riyadh. That said, there is some great mountain biking near the Newark hotel and we don't nightstop in Riyadh anymore.
In addition, the company treat me extremely well and BALPA are there to make sure you're not messed around.

My advice: Try and hold out for a DEP Long Haul seat but make sure you don't give up your chance to get into the company. The shorthaul lifestyle is pretty good too and you'll at least have long haul to look forward to.

Good Luck to all you swimmers,

LFW

Believe a few have had that call, and it seems they pay attention to it if they can (I know one guy who wanted short and one long, both got their requests - but I can't say how often that happens!).

PS How long does the 777 type rating and then subsequent line training last?

B777 Training
 

The Groundschool is about 2 weeks. Sims take about about 3 weeks. There are 11 of them and the schedule is something like 4 on 2 off. Line training will obviously be tailored to the individual level of experience but I think it's a minimum of 10 sectors (5 trips) and then a 2 sector line check.

On top of this, any new entrants will have to to a 2 week induction which includes SEP and CRM. In the unlikely event of no previous jet experience, there will also be a 2 week JOC (Jet Orientation Course) which I believe resembles an MCC course.

That's about all I know.

LFW

Thanks for that LFW! :D

10 Sectors doesnt seem like very much at all does it !

I know Virgin new joiners, going with no atlantic experience got 20 sectors, although in some cases reduced from this....

LFW - someone I know in a similar position on the 744 fleet said exactly the same thing about trips & variety!

I joined in 98 on the 777, with no long haul time, and did two 4 sector gulf trips, an Atlantic trip and then a route check. That was fairly normal at the time.

cheers

zzz

LFW - forgot to say, I think almost everyone (i.e. all who are suitable for longhaul) got that question.

So off the bottom then LFW!

BTSM

expedite_climb

good news about Feb start date, could you tell me when you were called and how long you had been in the hold pool ?

Just want to know because I have similar experience to yourself and am in the pool too.

Thanks

Expedite,

Great job on the 777. You must be quite excited. Were you offered other aircraft types (e.g., 400) or did they just assign you to the 777 given your experience? Do you know the approx percentage of pilots going to 777 vs. shorthaul in your class?

Do you think you will miss the 757 and all-nighters to Tenerife?

Cheers

Nah he'll be doing all-nighters back from the east coast USA or the Gulf instead.:D

Yeah, but he'll have more room to take a nap on the 777. Plus, he could get some of those first-class leftovers...

First class leftovers? You evidently don't work for BA! The cabin crew will have had those before disappearing for their three hour break!

Carnage - please don't ruin this thread for those people wanting to know about start dates etc.

Riker, - this is the offer, do you accept ? Thats it.

B777 Courses
 

Congratulations to you all, I'm sure you'll soon get a taste for 1st class food... And there's plenty to go 'round!

I know of at least one chap who was offered a Feb start date and has turned it down. Basically the pension at GB Airways is better and time to command obviously a completely different story.

Knowing what its like at BA, I think I'd still go for the B777 job but obviously it didn't sway him enough.

Has anyone else turned an offer down, or know anyone who has?

LFW

I know of at least 2 people who have both declined shorthaul jobs at LGW. The question is has anybody declined a long haul job because they wanted short haul?

AB / Lost for Words...

I hate to dampen down enthusiasm, or question people's decisions.

If you are going to join BA, there is only one thing that matters - the earliest Date of Joining. It will make a lot of difference to everything thereafter - fleets, monthly rosters, time to Command etc.

Given time to Cmd as now absolute min of 10ys for SH - maybe 15, and 15+ for LH, anybody coming to BA has to be doing it for the long term. As such, it is extremely shortsighted to turn down BA for the "wrong fleet / base" lightly pencilled in as your provisonal starting point.

To the guy who turned down BA for poor Pension and time to Cmd - seems he researched everything, and made a well informed decision for his desires / circs. To the guys who turned down SH LGW - and presumably would have accepted LH LHR, I am less impressed.

To those who have accepted LH LHR, I trust you do understand that at any time from now, until DoJ + 5 years, you can be posted, at BA's whim, to any fleet / base they wish (and BA have exercised this quite extensively and recently). And of course that includes during your first weeks in the company when they say - no, go sit in the 737 cockpit mockup, not the 777 - hope you like LGW...

NoD

These are the actual figures for retirements between 2004 & 2015
After 2015 the figures assume an average of 100 retirements a year

Read em and weep

16 years SH command

22 years LH command

Because they DONT include the retirement ago going from 55 to 65ish in 2006...

Add another 5 years onto these to make them realistic, then pull up your seat and make yourself comfortable as there wont be any mainline expansion at LHR LGW.

(you would join at about 3100 on the list presently)

Year Retirees Sen # Yrs
2004 162 3100 1
2005 122 2978 2
2006 151 2827 3
2007 115 2712 4
2008 78 2634 5
2009 89 2545 6
2010 99 2446 7
2011 120 2326 8
2012 114 2212 9
2013 79 2133 10
2014 118 2015 11
2015 105 1910 12
2016 100 1810 13
2017 100 1710 14
2018 100 1610 15
2019 100 1510 16 SHORTHAUL COMMAND LEVEL
2020 100 1410 17
2021 100 1310 18
2022 100 1210 19
2023 100 1110 20
2024 100 1010 21
2025 100 910 22 LONGHAUL COMMAND LEVEL

Nigelondraft,
Agree with most of what you say, BA has good terms and conditions and start date is important, but the Holy Grail was the pension scheme which is no more. New joiners no longer have the golden hand cuffs to keep them at BA if they get messed about.
As for changing aircraft types and bases after a contract has been signed in good faith, I would view this as very ungentlemanly!

Absolutely right.

No pension = No golden handcuffs

So, come to BA, get yourself a useful type rating, then, after a few months, go somewhere with MUCH better prospects!

Do it quickly though because, with the current rate of disillusionment at BA, it won't be long before the company are forced to start bonding new joiners.

Incidentally, I agree entirely with BKB, but suspect 16 years to a shorthaul command, is almost certainly, much too optimistic!

Airbrake you said
But that is exactly what happened to the last lot of DEP's. They even had 747 or 777 written on their contract of employment.................but BA can (and does) do what it likes in the first 5 years. Some of these guys intended to commute from abroad and were not too chuffed. An offer of employment on the LH fleets does not mean you will be flying on those fleets. You have been warned!
(Personally I prefer SH but there you go everyone is different)

The retirement rates after 2014 are going to be much lower than 100 a year. I like Tandemrotor suspect that SH commands are going to be a lot longer than 16 years...........but then I also think that an awful lot will have changed by then so it wouldn't put me off too much. Just take the fleet that is going to get you started the earliest............it makes such a difference for the rest of your careers.

No Commands + No Pension + No Bond = No Loyalty?

Surely they will start bonding soon? I hope not.:E (kidding)

MAX:cool:

NigelonDraft,


When you say extensively, how many pilots have been affected by this re-shuffing tactic?

Justbelowcap,

Can you confirm when this type of dirty tricks campaign last happened and in what context? I thought this happened over 4 years ago, although if true, would support the hypothesis that it might happen again...

Thanks for the heads-up.

:ugh:

JBC / NOD,

Did this 'fleet swapping' on day of joining not happen post 911 for those that started then ?

Well it couldn't happen any more recently could it... there haven't been any DEPs...!

Post 9/11 BA, to their credit, honoured all contract offers, even if unsigned, since people had handed in resignations to other airlines, who post 9/11 were very glad to see volunteers "go". BA gave some menial jobs, farmed some out to CitiExpress etc., but basically honoured them.

Some of these people had 777/744 on their contracts. They are still flying Airbus'. Some are bitter, some not...

As for "how extensively" I do not know... We have had new guys shunted to and from the 757/767 and Airbus against their will, or posted to the regions (MAN, BHX) and as soon as they have signed for a house up there, shunted back to LHR.

It is not ungentlemanly - it is in the contract / T&Cs. As a wild guess, anyone offered a 777 course for say Feb, is, say, 75% likely to start on the 777. All I am saying is keep your eyes open, and what really matters, if BA is for you, is your start date. Delaying for even a few weeks to get the fleet you want could cost you hundreds of £K and leave and command etc. over the coming decades...

I know someone who has turned down a shorthaul offer as they live in the North and needed LH to make commuting easier.

As you say no "golden Handcuffs" and BA is now just a job the same as most other airlines........

Scottie...

So what would they have done if offered B777, and then told 737 LGW on Day 1? Or Day 10?

It has happened many times down the years although the last lot were the first (as far as I know) to have an actual type mentioned on their contract. For the BA internal bidding those guys are not type frozen because they were directed onto a new fleet, albeit on day one, so are free to bid for LH BUT are still at BA's mercy till they have done 5 years. Subtle difference that may see them released before others that are still under a 4 year type freeze.

In the past pilots have been sitting in the 757 sim about to do their final check to be told "it's all changed chaps you are now 737."

Very important that people realise that for 5 years you can be put where you are needed and that you are not part of the Postings process, although you will get a bid. However once out of your 5 year freeze then your posting bid takes prority over any external applicant. BA can't deny a 747 place to an internal bidder and then put a DEP on that fleet. In the next few years most of the Cadets in LGW will be released from their initial 5 year freeze which means that no external pilots will get a sniff of the 747, although the 777 is very unpopular so expect that to always be availiable. However a fleets popularity can change over night. When the -400 first came in nobody would go near it and some very junior guys got comands, that soon changed as people realised how much the long range payments were worth.

But don't take my word for it........or anything off Pprune.....contact BALPA and get the facts for yourself. If you are not a BALPA member then shame on you. I shouldn't bother asking the admin staff at BA. They are about as useful as a chocolate teapot, as those who are about to join will find out.

When the phone goes and you are offered a fleet my strong advice would be to ask which starts first.

Questions for BA gurus:
[list=1][*] If an existing 73 type-rated pilot is recruited into BA on their 73 fleet, is he/she "type-frozen" on that fleet for 5 years, or is it the case that the "frozen" pilots are those who joined BA on a different fleet to that they were currently type-rated on because BA obviously picks up this cost?
[*] If the aforementioned pilot is not "type frozen", is he/she eligible from day one (or at such time as the annual bid process commences) to bid onto another fleet? Is my understanding correct that this bid would be considered in line with the pilots seniority, and honoured or declined as a result, notwithstanding the fact that if the company needed you anywhere within the first 5 years, it is able to re-locate you accordingly? This re-location occurs in order of juniority?
[*] Is it possible that re-location these days would indeed include possible destinations such as MAN or BHX or is the choice purely between LGW or LHR?
[*] Big Kahuna Burger has posted the retirement figures for the next few years and made a prediction of your possible TTC based on these. Depending on how you view things, this might represent a best or worst case scenario.

The argument is based on the premise that the only mechanism one advances up the seniority list is by virtue of the guys/gals at the top retiring. No figure is included for those who leave of their own volition/dis-enfranchisement with the company/personal reasons/loss of medicals etc etc. This may run at a small percentage but it is highly relevant bearing in mind the numbers are small anyway. Even if this figure is 1%/year of the workforce, this is 30 pilots which is ~40% of the retirements in 2013.

In addition, no figures are included for fleet expansion. Whilst the fleet has not expanded for ~5 years, if normalized fleet expansion is considered over the last 20 years, by how much has the pilot workforce grown? Again, is 1%/year a realistic figure?

If this is the case, the cumulative effect of both the above is effectively to add 60 pilots per year to the retirement figures in Big Kahuna Burger's table. This makes ~6 years difference to TTC.

What would be helpful is if the figures for the last 20 years are also made available and the reality compared with what was predicted 20 years ago. This affords the would-be applicant a more balanced view although past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
[*] What are the latest best guesses as to fleet composition/number in the next 5 years? Is a particular fleet expanding/shrinking?[/list=1]

:ok:

Previous type ratings make little or no difference in this respect.You are always eligible to bid. However, that bid will have no effect unless you are partially 'unfrozen' at some point. This can happen at any time if there is a lack of demand for a particular posting - technically known as a 'freeze waiver'.Who knows what will happen in the next five years? If you plan on being shunted anywhere during that period, things will generally turn out better than you thought.We consistently manage to get more work done with less pilots, so I wouldn't hold out too much hope there, although the 900hr maximum is becoming a limiting factor.Probably completely cancelled out then reversed by the effects of 2006, unfortunately.Sorry, don't have them to hand. I think BKB's predictions are probably not a million miles away.Yours, I should think. ;) At the moment, what BA wants and what it can have are kept apart by a few billion £'s of debt. My guess would be A321,350,(380) and B777-300,7E7 as being on the Christmas list...

SR71,

I believe BA plan on a "wastage rate," as they so nicely put it, of 1% - that is people leaving for reasons other than retirement - loss of licence, snuffing it etc etc

I have a "forecast seniority list" produced about 9 or 10 years ago and it is remarkably accurate. (I think it was based on normal retirements plus 1% wastage). I am about 30 places "better off" than it predicted - this year the prediction is closer to my actual number than ever, I was about 90 places better off 4 or 5 years ago - I guess that's because those that left early for whatever reason would now have retired anyway.

So the figures suggest that in the last 10 years only 3 people/year have left of their own accord to do something else.

Due to non-expansion, in fact slight shrinkage in fleet size, and more "efficient" working (i.e. more hours!), the BA pilot force has actually shrunk by almost 20% over the last ~7 years.

To expand on the previous answer, you are on an "engagement freeze" for your first 5 years. Normally if BA "direct" (force) you to another fleet, the "type" freeze does not apply i.e. you can immediately bid for another fleet. However, in your first 5 years, even after a direction, the "engagement freeze" still applies.

Fleets:[list=1][*]744 - will reduce if BA can find someone to take them (we own them all)[*]777 - possible expansion, maybe 773?[*]757/767 - no expansion, but drift towards more LH. If anyone offers BA tuppence for the 767s they'll be gone the next day...[*]Airbus - fleet expansion almost complete now, and will be by summer[*]737 - not worth discussing. They come and go, and popup at all sorts of bases and variants and are unprecdictable[*]Future - A330/A350/7E7 maybe? Particularly as a 767 replacement. A380? Maybe, but only a few...[/list=1] Hope that helps!

NoD

Squatter,

Talk about a desirable workforce retention figure! ;)

NoD,

Being a dummy, an engagement freeze is? Basically you stay where you are told to/put until such time as the 5 years is up or a bid of yours onto your desired fleet is honoured?

Cheers,

:ok:

SR71,

The engagement freeze is just the name of the type freeze you get on joining the company and it lasts for 5 years. The difference between it and a subsequent type freeze you get from bidding to a different fleet is that during the engagement freeze you can be moved by BA to any posting at their whim, after 5 years in the company you only move fleets by placing a bid (and being senior enough and there being a vacancy on your new fleet, of course.)

If you do have a successful bid (freeze waiver granted by BA for whatever reason) you are re-frozen for the greater of the rest of your engagement freeze OR the new freeze on type. That's not really applicable now since type freezes are longer than they once were.

The freeze periods are very approximate anyway as they apply only to the "training year" which starts on the 1st June. This means a pilot who starts a course on 2nd of June 2003 and another who starts his course on 30th May 2004 will both have completed one year of their freeze period by 1st June 2004 despite the first pilot having served a year more than the other.

squatter,

When you talk of starting a course, do you mean starting your training course on type or actual starting date with the company?

I only ask as there is normally a 1-2 week period of induction/CRM courses. This could affect guys who may get a start date towards the end of May.

Ta...

Hmmmm, I don't know, I'm sure someone else can jump in on that. For those moving from one fleet to another it depends on the first day of your type conversion course so I suspect it is the same for new joiners too.

Hello chaps!
I was wondering if somebody could give me a good idea of what a B744 roster looks like.
More specifically, do you get any short/medium haul? Days off?
Thanks!
Peter