Brookfield/ryanair contract pilot forced to fix base
 

hello,

now they want to save costs as well on the contract pilots and force them to a fixed base against their will, where they only get 114 euros/h instead of 134 euros/h.

furthermore the working pattern is 5 on 3 off instead of 5 on and 5 off.
as well there are stbys planned where you dont get paied anything, but still need to be there and pay food and accomodation.

what can we do against this, as this decreases the lifestyle big time, if one is not living close to a ryr base

thanks for input

Contract pilots
 

Well, have a look at the RYR costcutting tread - You will see, that you are not alone,,,,,

<<RYR costcutting tread >> intentional typo? Tat's very droll :D

I am told that First officers when promoted are now offered brookfield contracts at 95 euros per hour!

Before long MOL will be making us pay for a seat on the a/c when we are flying it (oops shouldn't have said that,it might give the b@rst@d ideas)

Incidentally has anyone heard any rumours of the departure of a VERY senior executive from the White House to warmer and sunniue climes??

Understand that Parc is having a field day with RYR drivers wishing to leave as they need a lot of them for SkyEurope! Nice detail, one of the Parc guys is an ex DFO of RYR!

Moral is low to say the least...... and now BA only wants A3xx drivers for DEP's.. :{

Hey Brookman's Park - does that €95 refer to the contract F/O's they upgrade or to the guys being upgraded from Full employment too? :(

CaptainNIC--- no one was forced to sign the reduced Brookfield's contract! Many did as I did and either ignored the letter or actually advised both Brookfields and Ryanair that they had no interest in any change! I don't know what is going on now though as many contractors seem to be getting rosters with large gaps in them! I've spoken to quite a few who say they will leave for other jobs if that is going to be a regular feature! When one is ONLY paid to work then one has to be able to count on a reasonably full roster! There are many positions available at the moment for experienced 737 NG drivers-- I get offers on almost a weekly basis!

well lost soul...

that is right, couple of month ago, there was the letter (email) for volunteers.

couple of days ago then the forcing, stating: your assigned base is now XY.
but for someone who does not life close to a base that means:

*20 euros less/hour
*having to do stbys (they plan and fill the gaps with stbys as to get the 5/3)
*paying more as you spent more days abroad
*3 off days per period minus positionning leaves you 1 day at your home...
* and you can not move to the base for good, as you never know when they dont need you anymore...

this is like asking your kid: "do you want some salad?" he says no thanks. then you say: "well you have to eat it anyway"..

like this, they just gonna loose pilots..

I'm also a contractor and have not had (or seen) such a letter. If I got one I would leave anyway! Have only recent joiners received these?? I can think of a number of guys like me who would leave for other jobs if this happened! Just tell them you are not interested-- there are plenty of other jobs around!

I´m just about to sign for the Brookfield contract with Ryanair but I am a bit worried because I´ll be leaving my job and I don´t know how this contract set up is going to work.
I´ve been told that I´ll be flying 50% out of my base on a 5in 3off roster and away on a 5in 5off.
Also that I pretty much have a guaranteed 900 hours flying a year.
Quite frankly the money is not that good at all and the terms are not the best but I´ll be happy for the time being if I can just expect that.
Can any one please tell me what should expect as a contractor. How many hours are you flying at the moment? And the extra 20 € an hour when away from your base is enough to pay for accomodation, transport, etc.

I think with those conditions they will struggle to find many more pilots in the very near future.

Don't count on the 900 hrs now--expect some months with less than 50 hrs flying. The rostering seems quite random at the moment and many of the contractors I talk to are looking around for other jobs. I don't understand what is actually going on at FR these days but they are certainly manging to p-off many of the aircrew (both perm and contract!) Even with the E20 added on the overall package is not as good as a normal salary with expenses-- accom at some of the bases can be quite expensive!

I am also thinking about leaving my job of 4 years to fly for them. I have been told the same, 900 hours a year and captains making over 10kEuros a month. Are there any pilots on the contract that can give an inside view on lifestyle on the contract.

How much are you away?
How do you cope on the money?
what is your quality of life like/ family life?
Are you left alone to fly out of your chosen base?
Are ther many standbys?
Do you get standbys away form base?
I guess these are unpaid?
Do you end up living out of a suitcase?
How stable is your roster?
Do you get paid for block hours flown or only those rostered?

This is a big move and a bit of a gamble but I guess you have to speculate to accumulate....

Any inside info would be a great help...

Thanks in advance...

56:confused:

I would certainly reconsider leaving a stable job to do the FR/BRKF thing. At the beginning I was making what you were told, but now it is much more variable and many guys are getting rosters with big gaps in them. Cost at some bases are quite high-- e.g. CRL and CIA and frequently the roster does not allow for passengering out on the first day and back on the last . (i.e. duty starts with an early and finishes late!) Part of the problem with the deal is the impersonal nature of the whole thing-- when you do have a problem or request it is difficult to find anyone to talk to about it! There are some quite sneaky clauses in the newer contracts so make sure you read it VERY carefully! I doubt it would suit anyone who valued a stable family life!

Thanks for the info
Are you away a lot?
I was told that they try to roster you from your chosen base as otherwise it costs them 20Eu more an hour, is this true?
I quite like the idea of being left alone to just fly as much as pos. but I dont want to end up living out of a suitcase with constant disruption. I was told that there are no roster changes is this true?
what is a typical day like, early, late? At the moment I do max 4 sectors 5 or 6 hours block up to 6 days a week with only 2 days off and get constant roster changes....3 earliesthen 3 lates finnish on a late start on an early every week No quatity of life at all
I hope I'm not jumping out of the fryingpan into the fire

In all fairness I have to say the rostering is the most stable I have ever experienced in quite a few decades of flying but of late they have occasionally started "backfilling" the roster. i.e. You get a big blank in your initial roster and after you have planned doing something in that time a later roster suddenly fills in the blanks -- probably right in the middle of what you had planned! From the sound of things you must be flying for eJ at the moment so in general FR rostering is much better than that. Under Irish rules you can do much longer days (No Cap 371!) e.g. You can start at 0530 and do a double STN-GRO - about a 12.5 hr day and around 8 hrs actual stick time! MOst rosters are 5 days of earlies then 5 days of lates.

That sounds a bit better news. Roster stability is a big deal. I guess at least with a 12hour day you get paid for it with FR thats over 1000euros in a day. not bad!!!

5 earlies sounds a bit tough but then at least you finish on an early and you are able to adjust much better. At the moment I get up 3 days at 4am then get home the next 3 days at 11pm by the 6th day I\'m nackered and then 1 day off then early to bed for another week the same I\'ve just had enough and on top of that roster changes....and no ££££

I think that FR must be better!!!!

What\'s the STN base like or GR?

Dear oil pressure raising.
What you say is pretty much what they told me in the contract so I suppose it wont be much of a surprise for me. At the moment like the previous guy I am working on a 6 in 2 off basis (early-late)
and reaching my dutty hours limit every week and I am really feed up. Working hard is not a problem because is what I am doing at the moment anyway but I do have a problem if I don´t make any money.
Can you please tell me if every time you fly away from your base seems that you have to pay for 6 nigths HOTAC. Is the 20 € extra enough? They told me that they have special deals with hotels. What is the average hotel cost?

And last, it seems that RYR is expanding very fast and they are going to need a lot of people. I´ve been told that in fact they are undercrewed at the moment so I don´t understand how come not everyone is flying to the max.
900 hours a year = 75 a month
Is that the average month roster?

Also do you get paid for hours flown or block hours scheduled?
What happens if you have to hold or get a long slot?

Since joining I have have averaged about 76 hours per month but that has ranged from about 58 to 99. Looking ahead now it seems to be getting lower. There is a rumour around that they are going to slow deliveries of more 800's and even perhaps send some of them to other companies for a while until work picks up.
Night stop costs can be quite high-- some months I have spent over £700 in hotel, living and communication costs and I am far from extravagant in my lifestyle! I've just been chasing costs for accom in CRL-- seems the range is from about E50 to E80/night PLUS food and other costs.(No company food , and they have even threatened to stop free water and hot drinks on the flight deck!)
Ryanair have a habit of ringing you on your private mobile so factor in some "roaming" charges for the phone as well. NOTE: Unlike most other companies Ryanair do NOT provide ANY means of communication with home base on the aircraft (No company mobiles, sat phones or even HF radios!)
GOOD POINTS- Great aircraft (738 with 27k engines!) Interesting routes (about 90 destinations) Minimal interference from the company. Generally high proportion of flight time to duty time.

OPR thanks for all the info!!!!
Great to hear from someone in the saddle
I still think it sounds ok
Better than where I am at the moment

In that case seems to me that it is probably better to fly out of your base.
I´ve been told that I could expect to work 50% in my base and the other away.
When you said that you spend 700 pounds in a month I assume that is flying out of your base for the whole month.
How much do you normaly spend when away for a 5 roster days?

Many thanks in advance, once again. Your info is very much appreciated.

The amount spent varies enormously with the base. e.g. Sweden is expensive BUT there is a good deal with a hotel in NYO covering accom and meals and cheap transport. I'm told that CIA is much more expensive as is CRL. If you live at the base then that is obviously the best deal but most contractors don't, so have significant costs to cover SBY's as well as flying days.

You can take the contract and the money you earn is enough to
pay a insurance for income protection, the tax, the commuting,
the hotel where you stay during duty period, the higher expense
for meals and and and. If You are realisic to consider this in the
calculation then you will see what you really earn.
You fly 900 hrs per year if you do not get sick and if you are
allways available for duty. That gives you about 10.000 EURO per
month. Then deduct the amount you pay for health insurance, for
retirement savings, for commuting, for the accomodation, for the
expense on meals, for the use of mobile phone roaming to call
the OPS, when you are elsewhere. If you want to play it safe you
pay tax AFTER deduction from the amount of expenses and then
it depends where you are resident/taxpayer you can only betray
yourself by finding you earning NET more money then in other
cockpits. It depends what is important for you. Consider what is
your goal and target. Then you can go for that contract. During
Ryanair contract you organize everything what the admin would
do for you in a normal airline. They make the Hotel reservation
for you, they schedule and pay the transportation to from and
to the airport. They administer the transportation to and from
another base. In Ryanair you do that all for you. That is why you
get the 134 EURO per block hour. For an LLC it is cheaper as
they have no follow up costs in doing that for the crews. They
would need more people work in the office to do this job. So
by giving you the money the giving you as well the responsibility
for it and they have a lean calculation. They do not have the risk
that somebody calls in sick. The person in charge of dealing with
this issue has to be replaced. They do not have to pay the sick
person and have somebody else to do the work. It is a question
of how a company is structured. The LCC has to be lean as much
as possible in all areas. Only on the back of all the people who
work there you are able to run the continues profitable succes.
Under contract the only one who is looking after you is YOU!.
After 10 years under various contracts I have seen a lot of
bullocks on paper what lookes good and is worth the same as
the paper to your right side when you sitting on the toilet, after
you used that paper......
Sorry about the extense posting but I hope it is worth to read.

NG

Ok so I get the picture but what you don´t understand is that at the end of the day there is no guaranteed on how many hours you are going to fly a year. And standbys away from your base and you paying for all the costs, please don´t take the p**s. I like the whole idea but I still think there are some things in that contract that do look a bit strange (5 days away from base and not flying on a standby) ???????????
Form a company point of view this setup is just the best. They can use you, send you wherever, do what they want with you and the best of all is that it doen´t cost them a penny because if you are not needed simply just don´t call you.
I know the grass is not greener on the other side or al least in my side but sorry this contract is a bit cr....sh.

Just to cuote I´ll be a poor FO on a 65€ an hour mines 4.5€ for the cost of all recurrent training so maybe you can understand my concerns now.

Jedy- You are beginnng to to see how it really is! I think particularly for an FO it is NOT a good deal. People that joined before December last year did not lose the additional amount for recurrent training either! What seems to be happening is that they are gradually "ratcheting down" the conditions for each group of new contracts. Many of the permanent FO's I have flown with lately are unhappy with the way they are treated by the company and they have generally better treatment than contract FO's!

A year or so ago when Ryanair was making huge profits they came up with the idea of using contractors to give them flexibility and also to reduce the chance of any strong industrial groupings evolving amongst the pilot group. The ORIGINAL pay rates related to the real cost of employing aircrew- offsetting adminstration and other costs but still with a financial benefit to Ryanair NOT the pilots. Since then they have gradually been attempting to take away a little bit at a time-- almost in proportion to the reduced profitability of the airline as more and more competition from other operators occurred. This is an airline like no other I have ever experienced-- there is very little support to an individual and the more vulnerable staff (i.e. more junior) are often bullied by management who follow the aggressive policies of senior management.

In terms of experience gained in a given time this can be a valuable learning tool for anyone wanting to gain a command but fewer and fewer pilots see the airline as a long term employer-- just a step on the way!

Never ever heard of a company having you go somewhere on your own money just to be on STBY and not paying you.
If they want the luxury of a contractor on STBY, very well but they pay the contract rate, period.
Also the new 5 ON / 3 OFF is a mockery, me think, if you consider you can fly from wherever it suits them.
:yuk:

Thanks very much for all the info. As far as I care you are 100% rigth, all I want is to gain a very good experience (jet time) 737 type rating, perhaps a good opportunity to gain quick command and as long as I make a decent salary for a year or so I´ll be happy.

Seems that this is the state of all airlines now a days but maybe with all the recruitment taking place at the moment they will struggle to keep or recruit pilots.

No doubt it´ll be a steep in the ladder

From what i understand from the contract you cannot have more than 4 STBY's in any month I quote,

Principles of the ¡§Scheduling contract Pilots
„« All Flight Time limitations shall be subject to the current IAA approved FTL system.
„« No more than a planned series of 4 blocks in any one base
„« No through the night flying planned & only 4 standby¡¦s within 28 day period
„« Base-to-Base flying within the planned block of scheduled work i.e. To reduce contract pilot requirement to position from base to base within a block of scheduled work.

Am I right in thinking this? At least one knows what to expect?

Thanks again of all the inside info....

Well I\'ve just made my mind up!
I\'ve been called off STBY again someone not wanting to work in the sunshine so I have to!!!

I\'m fed up really. I have reached my 100hr 28 day limit so in stead of getting rest days I keep being put on stby which is worse as somebody else who is fed up just calls in sick and one is left covering and all for about an extra £10 duty pay. Now also my duty tomrw is changed from 4 sectors to Stby then 2 sectors due high hrs so who knows what will happen. I have just had enough!!!!!

I\'ll hopefully be seeing you all on the line at FR soon!!!!!

Brookmans Park,

I have heard said rumour but can't figure out whether there's any truth in it.

Regarding the dodgy rostering, there is someone new at EMA doing the rosters and needs a bit of time to get into the swing of things, so this should be back to normal before long.

The reason that they are forcing bases is so that the taxman can get you!!!!...... gotta pay tax and social costs somewhere and the EU is getting a bit:mad: with the antics of this company. To pay a pilot per hour134 EUR OK, but if paid through the system it would cost Ryanair 264 EUR. This is just illegal and may seem generous but watch out guys the EU is looking closely at all this type of payment, and no good stashing it in Isle of Man and Jersey accounts either...... that is all about to change. Think there may be a mass exodus to the Middle East soon, what the name of that new company in DXB??:hmm:

Look at the maths.

Contract pilot works 900 hours per year, (if lucky). 450 hrs of that will now be at base. Very few pilots live anywhere a base but 450 x 20 = 9000euros pay cut, but most likely with no cost cut for the pilot.

Contract captain works 900hrs pa and is paid 102600euros = 68400GBP. No share options, no holiday pay, no sick pay, no uniform or loss of licence pay or other insurances. No guarantee of work at all.

A fulltime RYR captain in UK, if flying 900 hrs pa earns +90,000GBP. After the contract captain pays tax somewhere he earns net less than a fulltime RYR F/O, who has all the fringe benefits etc.

This is not to mention the costs of attending the sim for LPC's etc at your own cost, whereas the fulltimers are paid as duty days.

At the end of it the contract pilots are being mightly screwed. This is not an honest cost saving exercise, it is exploitation of desperate pilots. After what costs are necessary to get yourself into the position to offered a contract you need to be rich or desperate to consider it. Sad, but the market rules.

Having said that, there is a shortage of captains, especailly type rated, so perhaps things might change for all the operators.

But is FR still hiring direct, or is everything working via Brookfield?
And how do the salaries compare for FO's?