That's Ryanair/cae !!!
 

Dear pilot,

We still have your application on file for the Ryanair B737-800 TQ course at CAE. The first assessment is anticipated March next year. However, due to the very large number of applications, it will not be possible for us to invite everyone for assessment.

We herewith draw your attention to the Ryanair Cabin Attendants course at CAE. You might consider to attend this course and start working for Ryanair as a Cabin Attendant. Please understand that this would not eventually guarantee you an assessment for the B737-800 TQ course. However, it will give you the opportunity to start working within Ryanair.

Please carefully read the general information as attached. If you are interested to attend the course, please fill out the attached application form and return it by e-mail to [email protected].

Thank you and best regards,

CAE Aviation Training

Illustrates perfectly why not to work for them.:ok:

Would be funny if they get you to pay for the Cabin Crew training as well.

DUTCHMAN,
Yes you have to pay for the cabin crew training too.......read this................

Costs
Medical check: € 65,--
Cost of training: € 2.499,--
Fees are including taxes.

The job
· You will be offered a permanent position
· You will be based where most convenient to Ryanair; your preference will be taken into consideration
· Salary will be approximately € 1.500,-- per month net
· Generous travel concessions to destinations all over Europe

Accommodation and travelling
Accommodation and travelling during the Screening and the Training will be at your own expense and responsibility. CAE will try to support you in finding affordable accommodation.

Training start dates
Courses start throughout the year for successful candidates.

What next
Please fill in the attached CV template and save it as “yourname.doc”. Send it by e-mail to the following address: [email protected]. It will be filed by us and when we start recruiting we will contact suitable candidates.

After receiving your application, only suitable candidates will be contacted throughout the year. Unfortunately we are unable to inform you about the status of your application which we will keep on file. We wish you good luck and hope to welcome you to one of the CAE centres in near the future!

fecking typical! I got the same thing yesterday.

Are they running short of people to pay for the cabin crew training course?

Let me tell you I'm going to promote their policy in my own special way !!:E

How many files named "yourname.doc" are they going to get instead of "traceyblonde.doc" etc? :O

The Ryanair way !
 

You lot want to wake up and get with the fact that the world dont owe you all a living just because you have a FATPL.

Twenty years back this forum would have been going on about " unfair" training bonds.

Well after years of having unscrupulus pilots "jumping" training bonds and it not being worth chasing them in the courts the industry has got wise and made you all pay up front........unfortunatly the profession only has its self to blame for the situation that the budding airline pilots of today find them selfs in , after all as an employer would you invest £20K in trainning to have the pilot leave within the year ?.

As for flying as cabin crew the Deal is not so bad with Ryanair , the #1 in the cabin can expect to make about £3-4K per year more that a #1 with a UK charter airline and not have to do a lot of night flying.

I think what has has got you lot realy pi$$ed off is that you feel that a cabin crew job is below your mighty status as pilots.

The fact is that most of you are to wet behind the ears to cop on to the fact that a pilot with out "industry" experience is not worth much and you will learn a lot about the industry from working in the cabin that will be of value to you as a pilot.

I started within the industry before I went flying and that experience made me a much better pilot and on one or two occations MAY have saved me from making a fatal mistake.

My advice to all of you looking for a job is to get a foot in the airline door , its much easyer to get a job from inside the industry.

Lost B!
 

I found it:

B /

In each and every contract I passed with my boss, during a long carrer, I had to sign a commitment to work for him for a duration proportionate to the cost of aircraft type training.

It could last up to 5 years, and, as I don't think my French boss was more clever than yours, this was for sure a general practice.
Was it not? And a balanced one?

The new managment fashion to have pilots to pay for training, is due to the degradation of labour market.

Now, due to unemployment, pilots (and other professionnal indeed) have to subject themselves to middle aged rules.

The fact that qualified professionnal have to work in a lower, less qualified job than the one they have been working hard to get.... this fact isn't a progress (it could be one if it was for two month work placement as an eyes opening tool on the company).

It's just another demonstration of the waste of work, money (public and private) and human substance deregulation has organised for the exclusive profit of finance tycoons.

A and C,

I Have NOTHING agaist RYanair and the fact that you have to pay for the TR etc.....I have something against CAE trying to sell cabin crew courses when the airlines are willing to pay for it!

I am a cabin crew (N 1 for one of the UK airlines) ,I have worked in the cabin for 4 years and yes I think that it did teach me a lot expecially CRM wise. I also have a FATPL.

However paying for the cabin crew training I still think it's not worth it,because if your goal is enter the airline industry with an other duty other than pilot then you should try to have a look at the "cabin crew market",the airlines are screaming for cabin crew and also the agencies are!!! Every single airline is now recruting cabin crew including BA!!

Furthermore if you want a job as cabin crew for Ryanair just apply to Ryanair (NOT CAE),I don't think Ryan make people pay for the training , It's CAE and not ryanair!(I Hope).

I don't think the airlines owe me a living because I have a Frozen ATPL .

I don't think people should pay for a cabin crew position!!

You say that a N1 at FR earns 3-4 K more than He/She would for an other airline,ok you are right but don't forget to mention that at FR you should expect 70 sectors a month.

If I fly 70 sectors as N1 for the airline I work for I would take home more than a N1 at Ryanair(These are FACTS!!!!!).

Take care

A&C

would prefer to hear an opinion on whether you ARE a better pilot from others..... however, without even knowing you I'd say it's a fairly safe bet that you've been subjected to conditions that have made you squeal like the proverbial "stuck pig" before now! If I'm wrong then you either haven't been in the industry long OR you're the top pig of the airline you work for......

:yuk:

This is an ongoing development plan. 2nd stage is Mo'L's taxi driver!!

Many years ago, at the end of their engineering apprenticeship a whole years intake were offered jobs as Cabin Crew with B-Cal as they had no vacancies in engineering.
After a year or two when they were short of engineers due to expansion, before advertising they offered the ex-apprentices the jobs. They decided that the high life, sh@gging their way around the world was better than gettnig dirty on the ground.

So even if you have strived (and payed) to get qualified, don't have a go at Ryan or anyone else. If there is no work, there is no work, you will have to look at something else to do in the mean time until something in the line that you want turns up.

I hear McDonalds are recruiting at the moment!:O

the big egos show themselfs !
 

SK111 just how big has an ego got to be before you stop learning from life ? , Clearfortheoption has become a better flight crew member because of the CRM issues that have been part of opperating as a crew member.
I would not expect you to give up a flight crew job to become cabin crew but remember there are a lot of people that would love to have your job if it is not good enough for you.

W/C fowler my time in the industry has made me a better pilot than I would have been otherwise it has also taught me not to "look down" on others in the industry , some years back a baggage loader pointed out to one of the pilots in my company a crack on an engine that could have started an in flight fire , if the pilot had an attitude to other staff that we have seen above in this thread the aircraft may well have taken off .

As you say just how good I am is for others to judge and yes we all have gone into "stuck pig mode" once in a wile but I have never objected to a training bond if it was a true reflection of the costs and have paid up when leaving a company before the end of the bond. The pilot comunity has only got itself to blame for the payment up front for ratings because of the actions in the past of the bond jumpers.
As I see it Ryanair are offering people the chance to get some industry experience that could be of use to them and if they are without a job the money could help or are unemployed pilots above working for a living ?.

Ermmmm...... So you feel you would not have had any respect for the baggage handler if you had not "had your time in the industry" then hmm....? I have respect for pretty much all kind hearted and thoughtful people and my "time in the industry" is limited to pilot, human being, individual, team member.... etc etc.

Fact is, those that wish to be baggage handlers be baggage handlers, those that wish to be cabin crew be cabin crew. Those that wish to be pilots be pilots - all of the above have to be qualified, motivated and above all else human beings (last time I looked anyhow).

I don't see "an attitude" in the postings above but I do see some fed up aspiring pilots who would much rather receive an appropriate response from their applications for pilot positions!

Quite right too IMHO.

in general pilots should be aware and know perfectly that being cc is not just serving a meal to a passenger....let's talk about safety, or first aid....

galley girl
 

Some of us know this and some of the pilot community wont admit it and some of them are so far up them selfs that they cant see it !.

SK111
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get real !!!!
The cabin crew job IS "below" the status of a pilot, as you put it...I didn't spend a royal fortune and many years getting experience to serve cofee and tea.
If your previous experience has helped you - Good for you, but don't give us that bullsh.t
It takes a long time to become an experienced pilot, it takes about two days to become a CA - Sorry buddy, that's a fact of life !!
I enjoy all my collegues in the cabin, but I wouldn't swap jobs - I'm overqualified !!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually Cabin Crew training is a min 5 weeks at the moment (oh and that's 6 day weeks btw) with exams most days, so even you wouldn't get by on 2 days (and most of us can spell too!)

If you've ever been on a CRM course then I'm sure that you do know that cabin crew are actually there to deal with a lot more than refreshments.
They are there to deal with the SLF in an emergency and keep them off your backs while you deal with the metal
They will even oblige by opening the doors ensuring that you don't have to try to squeeze your inflated ego out through a flight deck emergency hatch/window
Oh and yes in extreme circumstances they've even laid down their lives to stop access to the flight deck

You're not 'overqualified' for the role of cabin crew, you obviously don't even have the basic requirements
Cabin crew provide a safe, secure, pleasant environment for the pax, this includes being able to respect and appreciate all human values, we do not discriminate, especially not based on how much qualifications cost (there's a lot of cc that would love to fly if they could afford it) just because you've been fortunate enough to pay to get your job, don't judge others, your job is not who you are, that IS something that you need to spend time and effort working on!

Please tell me that there aren't really any pilots left flying that believe cabin crew is a worthless position, if there are, then these are the very people that SHOULD sign up as crew, you could learn a LOT!

And girls please watch out for this guy that 'enjoys' his colleagues

A and C
Ryanair began charging to accept cv`s within days of 9/11 it had sod all to do with being screwed over bonds - about as close as you can get to legal mugging
Hostie
Nobody has suggested that cabin staff are other than professional in what they are trained to do but I would suggest you refrain from refering to your sponsors as self loading freight as that attitude gives us all a bad name:mad:

Southwest started low-cost airline travel over 30 years ago.Its the best in the business(best low-cost,best airline)but unfortunately,its spawned some very poor imitations,incl Ryanair,easyjet and others.The true art of low-cost is to provide cheap air travel and yet still maintain high standards in the way you treat passengers and your employees.Pilots,fa's,mechanics,reservation agents... all have a part to play and are all respected in Southwest.If you're treated well,you want to treat others well.Its only human nature.It seems that a lot of folks are prepared to put up with being treated badly in the pursuit of low cost air travel,which is what enables airlines like Ryanair to get away with blue murder.And pilots are so scared after 911 of never getting another job,that they'll sign on the dotted line to fly with these airlines that have no respect or integrity.Why do Ryanair hire most of their new pilots straight out of flight school?Because they have no pre-conceptions and can be easily moulded.And they're cheap.Why is easyjet offering Capt positions to senior F/O's(unheard of here in the States).
You can take the shell of low-cost(point-to-point,secondary airport utilization,quick turnarounds)but if you dont nurture brand loyalty,both with the public and your employees,it wont work.It might work for a time,but your people are always looking to jump ship,so you're on borrowed time.One accident..and they'll be gone.And then you're just another Valujet...who btw werent rude folks at all,just incompetent.

No Reds
 

I dont agree with charging to look at CV,s but having seen some of the stuff that comes in the post I can see why Ryanair do in after all it will make sure that they only get applications that have a chance of a job.

Please dont just tar Ryanair with the 911 brush after all the beancounters in a number of airlines used it as an excuse to fire staff and to the best of my knowlage Ryanair did not fire anyone but Virgin , BMI, JMC and a number of others did.

The fact of the matter is that market forces are driving pilot recruting and they can only maintain this policy as long as there is an over supply of pilots in the market other airlines use more subtle ways of sifting aplications such as requiring overly high accademic qualifications or the old squadron tie.

is this thread real???

take a look at yourselfs guys, some of you have got far too much EGO for your own good.


Pilots, Cabin Crew , Baggage loaders, dispatchers etc.... all very different jobs, all needed for the safe operation of an airliner!! Any good Captain would recognise this and being a good manager use his CRM skills to get the best out of his TEAM!!

Now thats the key word guys and gals , it takes a good TEAM to operate a flight well.

Dunno about chips - there are few people around here with an entire potato farm on their shoulders......

:(

To get all fact clear. There is no cost to apply to any of the RYR training centres: GECAT, CAE and one in Sweden. Only if you apply direct they charge the 50 quid, if you do your homework you find that RYR gives all the CVs to the TRTO's so it is better to go direct to the TRTO's. :)

Regarding the CC, if you are flipping burgers at the local burger joint or can work as CC I know what I would choose! Get close to the fire I would say and fly in the back!

:ok:

Ladies, Gentlemen
I am not cabin crew therefore I cannot speek with great authority on the training payment matter, but I can give you facts about this particular issue. Ryanair does not charge its cabin crew to do their training. A year or so ago a Spanish school (cabin crew) approached Ryanair and asked them to take on some of its graduates. (Apparantly in spain and in other countries in Europe the Licencing authority issues cabin crew licences and not the airline as in the UK) These boys and girls had decided to become cabin crew and payed for their course to this school because they wanted to go work for their national carriers. In order to receive their national licence they needed work experience and since no one was hiring in their country they found "evil" Ryanair who was willing to take them and pay them to work in a proffesion that they had chosen to do. CAE is an independent TRTO with its own marketing goals and ideas, and their desire to do these courses has nothing to do with Ryanair. If you feel it is worth it go for it, if you feel it is not then do not go for it. The targeting of pilots having applied on their website I am sure is their own marketing strategy
JP:D

On my previous post I forgot to mention issues regarding pilots training costs.
On the Ryanair website, it clearly states that if you are non rated then do not apply to Ryanair directly, but instead apply directly to the TRTOs. Ryanair does not receive any money from the TRTOs and they independently price their courses, therefore it costs one different amounts depending were they go. The cadet does not pay for his or her base training, nor do they pay for their line training as some one has mentioned before.
Three years ago the first cadets came from a dutch school and all of these guys had 200 hours total time. Today three years later they are earning around 3800 GBP net in the UK and around 4700 Euros in Euroland. I certainly did not have such an opportunity to go from a cessna to a B737-800 and to be guaranteed a job once the type rating was completed. A lot of us have not paid for our type ratings but we have paid in different ways, lower income our first years,years of unemplyoment, heart breaks when we did not get the first jet job we wanted, etc, etc. Just ask around the regional airlines F/os how much they earn and their prospects for command.
Some of these cadets will be Captains in 2 years from now earning 5000 GBP and with 4500 hours on a 737-800. Their world is their oister, unlike alot of other pilots... Ryanair is about partnerships, you take a risk you get rewarded, and most of all even during this horrible time in aviation Ryanair management has kept all of their promises regarding pay and working conditions.
Ryanair is not perfect but it sure does try to look out for its people (ie one of the cadets lost his licence during his probation period and he was kept on and paid and last I heard he is an SFI with us up in East Middlands). I know we do work hard but then I was not told any different when I joined...

Paying for CC training is the norm in Brazil, and perhaps in other Latin American countries - besides, a monthly salary of £1400 doing the job you love isn't bad, and compares favourably with other LCCs. I'd rather take out a loan and pay than work in an office.

What type of working relationship do you think you will have with the pilots already employed at Ryan (as pilots) Do you expect to be treated as equals, considering should one of them draw the attention of management, he will be reminded that there are two Fatpls pushing trollies down the back who would be very willing to step into his shoes
Easy jet tried this many moons ago and it was not very successful for the guys involved (it would be interesting to know how many stayed with easy)
Having spoken to some Ryan jockeys on the matter they were all quite blunt- you will be treated with contempt!

Contempt...???? Well excuse me but that would be quite innapropriate!! For those that it suits - well indeed go for it. I can hardly see where the need for contempt comes in. Strange reaction IMHO.

circlip . . more please but make it readable . . .

Is it true that some cabin crew cry after their first training emergency jump??:8
Just kidding:=
Keep the thread alive it makes me laugh..:E

Ps :didn t get an interview as cabin crew with easy jet because i had not been face to face with clients for at least 6 months...
Maybe one of the flight crews should turn his seat 180deg to face its passengers in case he needs one day to serve them tea and coffee for a living....

Safe Flying,

M.85

"should one of them draw the attention of management, he will be reminded that there are two Fatpls pushing trollies down the back who would be very willing to step into his shoes"

sadly were it not so. I agree in a perfect world it would not be an issue, but we do not live in a perfect world

and a few more at EZY !!!!

so if you join as cabin crew do not expect to be considered for a job as pilot!!!

My tuppenceworth;

In my company we have cabin crew who have gained pilots licences. None of them have ever been hired as pilots in this company (some made it elsewhere). I have nothing against them, good luck to them, but I sense a certain prejudice in our selection board.

A previous airline I worked for had a couple of wannabe pilots working in Flt. Ops (surely a better area for gaining suitable experience). These guys were finding it impossible to break into the piloting side (even when less experienced people were being hired) because they were so keen to please and subsequently so good at their desk job that the management realised they were the best workers they had, and couldn't do without them in that post. Literally they became indespensable as ground staff!

I must work for a more enlightened company. In the last few years the Ops department has produced one captain and two F/Os.

I work for an airline where I have seen engineers, f/as, rostering staff, ops staff, and several other areas- all hired as pilots, the only and notable exception being management.
This is merely an observation, draw whatever conclusions you wish.

Forgive me, but this really strikes a nerve...
Well. Enough of that.

A while back the flight attendants at a particular airline were considering a strike. I mentioned to one of them, "why wouldn't the airline just run some replacements through training to cover the strikers and thus continue service? I mean, if you didn't serve drinks or meals during the strike, you could cut out that part of the FA training and actually shorten it, running replacements through in short order. How short would training be if you didn't learn how to pour coffee and serve meals?"

The answer: "Well, the full training is six weeks long, and if you cut out the part where we learn meal and beverage service, you could probably do it in five weeks and three days."

So, anyway, listen: knock that crap off. Agreed, you probably spent a small fortune getting to where you are, and I'm sure you're quite adequate in your job. However, you're either incredibly stupid or you have the driest sense of humor I've even encountered. Please, do you honestly believe what you've said? See, I'm thinking that when !!!!'s on fire you're going to save your own "overqualified" ass by going out a window, while those "tea and coffee servers" are trying to manage a situation going to hell.

Manchester 1985 comes to mind...

Versus...

Arrgh. :mad:


Dave

Dave,

It's a fact of life that due to career length the people at the front have a longer collective memory than those in the cabin.

Sadly your words are being read by those who clearly remember err, 'replacement workers' being trained and signed off with CAA approval in less than ten days. In fact the record is held by one senior and respected UK company at 4 days.

This isn't indicative of the respect pilots have for cabin crew but their managers and the controlling authority. These events happpened not just post Airtours at Manchester but long after Kegworth as well. When times get nasty you'd be amazed at the non existent respect their work is accorded by the deskbound.

No coughing, no apoplectic outbursts please - that's the truth of it otherwise there will be a flood of posts from senior airline people from both sides of the flight deck door clearly stating that I'm wrong.

But I don't think that will happen which in it's own way will reinforce where the real lack of respect for cabin crew lies.

Regards
Rob

Further to my last, I also have two good mates sitting in the left seat who started their aviation careers as cabin staff.

Don't think anyone has a problem with working as cc. I know one or two people who moved down to the sharp end after working several years in the back with the passengers.

However what really gets me is the 'ok pay us 3000 pounds to get a cc qualification (whilst so many airlines are desperate for them as stated earlier). Then if they do want you as fc they'll ask for another 20000 ish', and yet still not guarentee you a job. No noone owes us anything if we only have an fatpl, except for maybe a little respect for the hard work we have put in to get this far which it seems CAE can't be bothered to do. What happens next. Do they start making you pay for the six monthly sim check??? Maybe i shouldn't have said that or management might institute that as policy. If it does happen i apologise to all you guys working for FR.

Like i said cc is just as important for flight safety as the pilots themselves, but i'm getting fed up of pay pay pay pay and then we'll think about giving you a job attitude. The selection is no longer based purely on skill but on finances as well. I say bring back the good old policy of 'bonding'. And i do think it is unfair to reply to someone's pilot application by not just saying no, or reapply in x months.

Thanks Rob. I appreciate the balance you're striking here.

Dave