BA f/os Wanting GSS commands
 

To all BA f/os thinking about bidding for GSS commands. THINK AGAIN!!! Do you realise what you are getting into.
Firstly be aware that all in GSS from the management down, do not want direct entry captains because of the problems involved. (Similar to those that would be involved if BA had to take on direct entry captains).
Balpa has done much muscle flexing but little brain flexing in this matter. Both BA and Balpa are keen to impose this on GSS. It may well turn out to be illegal but thats not the main point.
If you accept a command on less money than you would get at BA think what message this sends out. BA management would love the chance to argue that f/os will accept commands for less pay. This will totally undermine future pay negotiations and suprisingly Balpa have been duped into supporting it. Also it will totally undermine the fight to have BA cargo completely in house, if BA staff are working on the cheap for GSS.
Secondly you will be sitting next to a guy whose job you have just taken, you will be working in a potentially hostile environment. The potential for CRM nightmares is high. Even the ex BA staff at GSS are completely against the idea. So don't make yourself an outcast from BA a parriah at GSS and a pawn for low pay with GSS management, all with one stupid bid. Think

Spencer,

You may not like it, but veiled threats and attempts at intimidation will not work. grow up.

I wasn't going to bid for one of OUR 744F commands, but having read your foolish post, I think that I just might, The notice is due out any day and the money is not too bad.

I quite like the idea of a 'holiday' flying around the world on a freighter. It's better than unpaid leave 'cos whilst I'm doing it i still get paid. And then i can nip back into BA and be replaced by another BA colleague.

Spencer,
you started this rubbish mate, so a few facts (just for you 'cos i'm sure that the rest of your colleagues are all professionals and would have nothing to do with what appears to be a veiled threat)
1. this is BA work
2. this is BA work
3. this is BA work
get the message?

this is work which has been taken from BA pilots, and now we are going to get a crack at it. One day i hope that it will return into the proper BA pilot community where it really belongs.


Be careful about making threats spencer - you wouldn't want to be accused of making a threat on board an a/c when we fly together would you?

Sixteen man on the dead man's chest
Yo Ho Ho! And A bottle of Rum

Hmmm, looks like the BA head shed has discovered B scale.
CX did likewise much to the flight crews dismay.
Shareholders/management must be smiling....all the way to the bank.
Also suspect BALPA hasn't got a clue...:ooh:

Maybe a more serious issue is the one of parachuting CityExpress AVRO RJ Capatins into mainline BA shorthaul commands in contravention of the previous agreement. The whole process is being conducted in a fashion that makes the workings of the North Korean communist party look open and above board.

No citiexpress guys are getting mainline commands, only GF rights to commands at LGW. They are welcome to them.

Just arrived from pub therefore slightly cerebrally challenged.
Are GSS F/Os BALPA members?
Try to get BA crew onside - i.e. don't alienate them.
Make it a 'BA vs crew' issue rather than a 'GSS F/O vs BA F/O' issue.
Looking at it from the outside you have points on both sides AND (unlike Cathay's probs over the last 10 yrs) you are in Europe with UK/EU labour laws and union representation.
Look at the law - e.g. why can't BA sub their freight if they wish?
GSS FOs - where does it say that your company can't employ DE captains? Did you have a promised command clause in your contract? (most 'promised commands' don't)
BA FOs - do you wish to help create a B-scale cargo subsidiary?

Please don't consider any of the foregoing to be adverse criticism; merely food for thought based on a few years in the biz.

I'm going to see what's on the tele :8

youwererobbed

apologies- I meant LGW. However, the scheme is a touch naughty if

a) you promise it will only exist for 1 year and it is now in it's second

b) you don't tell the guys who are bidding for commands at LGW

Example: I know of a 777 FO who wanted a command and liked LGW (his house is there) and really did not want to wait 7-9 years for the left seat on his 777. So, after looking at the slots available and the seniority he bids for 737 command at LGW and Airbus command at LHR.

All looks well - as the bids close he is number 8 on the list for 24 737 commands. So, imagine his surprise when 2 days later he has dropped off the bottom of the list because of the citiexpress chaps being parachuted in.

Now, if the process had been open (i.e. BA had said that this was what they planned to do) then he could have saved his time bidding for LGW and bid for BHX/MAN where he didn't really want to go but may have had a better chance of success because of the effects of the citiexpress deal being restricted to LGW.

CityFlyer Express
 

moggie,

I believe they are ex CityFlyer Express pilots you refer to, not BA CitiExpress pilots. Gawd knows why the newer company was given an almost identical name to the now defunct company which used to operate exactly the same aircraft at LGW...

One thing's for sure, the old company was a damn sight more successful than its newer almost-namesake...!

:confused:

Spencer are you on drugs? You half inch our jobs and then preach solidarity. Well the boots on the other foot mate. There's a load of FO's who have shafted recently out of command by direct entry kids from Crawley Councils Airbourne division. I quite fancy not having to bother with punters for a few years.

Sorry to ask, but what/who is GSS?

An independant company based at STN operating 2 (soon to be 3?) dedicated 747-400 freighters on behalf of BA World Cargo, in full BA livery, with 'Speedbird' callsigns.

Ratsarsed,
Not so sure about 'full BA livery'...........
I lined up at CGN behind a GSS liveried -400 which was going to FAJS but with a 'Speedbird' callsign.....

:cool:

They aren't in BA Livery

What mix of nationalities operate for gss or is it another one way validation operation backed up by antipodeans?

if so good luck to the ba guys.

GSS
 

PSYCOBFH,

What did you say???? BA work, BA work, BA work......

If you guys in BA can do the work for the same cost, why aren't you doing it?????
I am sure BA management would have prefered to get a couple of 400F and give the work to you clowns, don't you think????

Maybe the cost is to high and BA could not make any money....

Well if you want to bid for a position into GSS go ahead, but GSS IS NOT BA.........

Cheers


:ok:

PS: I don't work for GSS:E

JiveBomber / Stressfree,

Yep, you're right, they're no longer in BA livery. However, they did have a BA livery on them when first delived.
See Here

my, my, we are a bit sensitive! I was just pointing out they did have the livery at one time-no big deal.
If the BA guys have the right to bid for it (which they do, as you can see from the agreement in an earlier post) then they shouldn't be prevented from doing so. Like you say, things change!

I you look closely, I that 400F has an N reg. that is because it was an Atlas aircraft - hence the Atlas logo under the cockpit. Atlas used to operate the BAWC contract and painted an aircraft in the colours just as they do with their 2 400Fs operated for and on behalf of Emirates. The current GSS scheme is actually Atlas' scheme with a few mods - Atlas own the aircraft. The GSS aircaft do have a small BA logo on the forward fuselage.

Atlas ceased to operate the BAWC contract due to pressure from the CAA thanks to a campaign against flagging out from the IPA. The jobs only became British on formation of GSS due to this pressure and there was a lot of anger from the American pilots who believed their jobs were being taken away from them.

I'm not going to comment on who's jobs I think they are, but I do feel sorry for the GSS FOs who have had the carrot of a command dangled to see it whipped away. Also 411A has a good point that if the operation does get integrated, BA management will have successfuly managed to introduce a B scale. Beware!

<<Sorry to ask, but what/who is GSS?>>

A company, 49% owned by Atlas, to which BA outsourced its cargo work.

Congratulations to the BA pilots' reps for starting to put an end to the outsourcing of BA pilots' work. Now get to work on the Franchisees.

God forbid -- Nigels flying freight -- What will they do -- No hosties to upset and how will they cope with no CHEESEBOARD -- Quick run to BALPA !

Wont be long before the Nigel managers get bored again and start chasing the franchises again -- which seem to be making stacks of cash ! Must put a stop to that !

Moggie

Just to clarify it was some of the CityFlyer guys that got commands in mainline when it was absorbed.

Although CitiExpress is owned by BA, it is run as a totally seperate company and CitiExpress pilots have no access to mainline at the current time.

As cumulo-granite pointed out the very similar names all to often cause confusion!

Infact what is happening is that some mainline pilots are being parachuted into CitiExpress commands on the RJ100 and pushing some CitiExpress Captains already on the RJ into the RHS, which is totally unfair. But that's another kettle of fish which has been discussed on this forum before!

Some misconceptions about BAs franchises here. Difficult to think of any that have taken jobs away from BAs pilots as the franchisees invested in operations where BA did not or could not operate,- and mostly never could at BAs cost levels. The overseas franchises, eg Comair in S Africa , RegionAir in Kenya and Sunair in Denmark fly routes which BA would never be able to secure the traffic rights for anyway. The franchises have through their own investment and financial risk brought BA feed traffic and strengthened the power and reach of its Executive Club, frequent flyer programme at no cost to BA itself. Thereby they have supported BA mainline profitability,- and jobs,- not undermined them.

Cheers Shaman.....!

BALPA and franchises. Hmmmm!

BALPA are very keen to sign up new airlines to increase their revenue, but what happens when there is a conflict of interests between airlines where they represent both? They come out for BA. One airline joined the franchise but flew no extra routes as a result. They just continued to operate the ones they had developed over the years. Recently BALPA supported an attempt by BA to move into those routes. Ironicly, the pilots in this franchise had voted to be represented by BALPA the year before.

BALPA should stand for the 'British Airways Line Pilots Association'. It it BA's union and has not proved to be anything but. The short time I wasted 1% of my salary with them, they were argueing to make me redundant. :mad: ers!

Skylion

I think you may find you are wrong here. BAWC (BA World Cargo) went outside the company to find a company to operate regular cargo work BYPASSING BALPA, such that BALPA were not aware of the situation until late on in the day. At that point, partly due to a poor /non-existant SCOPE agreement it was to late to cancel the plans. BAWC then in short time ended up with not just part-loads, but 1 and then 2 aircraft.

We (BALPA) have since been trying to argue our case to the point we are now. The freighters fly purely BA Cargo around the world - that is why it is (1) BA work (2) BA work (3) BA work.

BALPA has been successful in negotiating terms at LGW, BHX and MAN in the past to keep work flown by BA pilots on the BA pilot seniority list, and could well have been in this case some years ago but were not given the opportunity.

That wrong has been rectified - to those at GSS - sorry but that is the truth - it is our work, be grateful and help us to bring the work in-house (with yourselves) at industry rates. The GSS rates of 56K UKP (year 1) + 2 UKP/hr at not industry rates!

A large number of GSS pilots, both in the LHS and RHS are ex BA and can understand the feeling within BA. However, it is important, particularly for those thinking of bidding, to understand the other point of view.

BAWC have been outsourcing their cargo for many years, with various operators. It was only when they had two of the Atlas aircraft dedicated to BA that BALPA and the IPA objected. GSS was formed to comply with BALPAs objection to having BA cargo flown by US crews. The BA/BALPA Scope agreement about GSS was made without the agreement or knowledge of GSS. However, those of you who have been to the George W Bush school of diplomacy will understand why GSS had to submit to BALPAs demands.

Many of the GSS F/Os gave up established careers, and some of them commands, to join GSS. They have been working hard, often more than their contracted 20 days/month, and many without leave, to ensure the success of their new employer. Several who had started their pre-command training will now possibly never achieve their command due to their age. I am pointing this out because it is important that those of you who bid are simpathetic, and treat your new colleagues with tact and diplomacy.

As has been said earlier the biggest winners are the beancounters. How can BALPA argue that one group of BA pilots are able to operate Jo'burg-Accra-Vitoria then pax on the aircraft to Stansted via Cologne whereas the others are not. How can they justify a 'BA' 744 captain earning less than a BA 744 F/O?

I realise that the two groups will never agree. Ones point of view depends on which side of the fence you are on and where your own personal advantage lies. GSS is a happy airline with hard working crews. Landing a freighter at 302 tonnes into Mumbai in the monsoon is no place for poor CRM. I'm sure that there will be no intimidation and that you will be treated with respect. In particular, the GSS training department is fair and impartial. However, please make sure that you read the full GSS terms and conditions before bidding.

Airclues

Ah, yes…… let me see… lets get this right……. you have just been awarded a massive pay rise, you have enviable security of employment, the best terms and condition in the industry, a vast network, offering the total range of flying life-styles, sixty odd 747 – 400s and you want more. You want to take commands and jobs away from pilots in a small, fledgling, private, independent, UK airline with two or three 747-400 freighters - jobs and commands from fellow BALPA members who are struggling to forge a career in the harsh reality of the aviation world that exists outside BA.
And this is based, of course, on an honourable, altruistic and unselfish dogma. Now what was it? I recall: - ‘BA work’, ‘BA work’, ‘BA work’.
Now let me think …… I remember now….. BA once had a 747 freighter, G-KILO that arrived in1980 and flew for 18 months.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me!!!!

Eicas-GP

I have taken a pay cut thank you and will continue to earn less under the new deal for the next 4 years.

The BA pilots want to nip this sort of thing in the bud, ie having BA flights sub-contracted to cheaper crew. If this is allowed to spread it means a reduction of Ts and Cs for all.

I agree it is very harsh for the GSS Fo's, but are we to stand idly by? I personally would rather we brought them into the BA workforce.

Cheers

BB

Surely if BA crew the flts then it will not be long before they cease anyway. Let us not shy away from the facts as stated already the GSS operation is far cheaper. If you want to go down one route then you also have to ask why half of the LHR pax flts are leaving with little or no cargo.

There seems to be too much self interest on what is good for the pilot community and I get the impression from the thread that whether any monies are made on this op are irrelevant. It is the profit that enables you to enjoy a very priviledged occupation with excellant conditions far exceeding those that work ffor GSS and most of the rest of us in BA.

HZ123 - the cost will not go up , as the Terms and Conditions will be the same for a BA pilot as they are for a GSS pilot.

There seems to be too much self interest on what is good for the pilot community and I get the impression from the thread that whether any monies are made on this op are irrelevant. It is the profit that enables you to enjoy a very priviledged occupation with excellant conditions far exceeding those that work ffor GSS and most of the rest of us in BA.

Isn't this a Professional Pilots Rumour Network? - probably why pilots appear to be self interested on the site.

Very priviledge occupation . . . you haven't got a clue. You're comments are not constructive, do not form rumour, and are not news - so why contribute? Probably the green eyed monster syndrome at BA which see's every community trying to erode the t's & c's of every other community, and only resulting what is currently a very depressing place to work. I have respect for my colleagues in different departments, now please accept that we are part of a team, and show us some mutual respect. My ATPL didn't come in the post with 200 nectar points, it took a great deal of time, effort and expense to earn.

I'm sure all the nurses in the NHS bitch about doctors priviledges, legal clerks and court recorders about solicitors, soldiers about their officers, I could go on. This GSS scope deal is about protecting industry terms and conditions, as someone quite rightly said, we should be aiming to get the GSS crews up to our level, with our t's & c's and on our seniority list.

There is no reason why pax drivers in the UK should be any better renumerated than freight drivers. Fedex clearly illustrates that.

To those of you at GSS - we do see it from your point of view - please try and see it from our's too.

HZ123 et al

<Let us not shy away from the facts as stated already the GSS operation is far cheaper.>

The reason that BA's costs are so high is that we have a HUGE FIXED COST BASE, this is due to the fact that we have so many employees per hull. Now with a simple grasp of economics and accounting I think that you can appreciate that the fewer flights we have (due to GSS franchises etc) the higher the fixed cost apportionment will be per flight; with more flights then it becomes lower and you've increased your margins and hence profit.

As for

<It is the profit that enables you to enjoy a very priviledged occupation with excellant conditions far exceeding those that work ffor GSS and most of the rest of us in BA.>

We have as a dept just been bench marked with other operators in Europe such as Lufthansa, Air France and KLM. The findings of the initial research was that we worked more days for less money, for example Iberian pilots work 60% of the amount we do. If you want to talk about "excellent conditions" then shall we talk about baggage loaders who start on more money than an FO. Or GTS bus drivers who only do 3 or 4 return trips to the airport in one day and earn in excess of £40k per annum. Or perhaps Long Haul cabin crew who take home the equivalent of £36k per year as a junior?

We BA Pilots as a community have never tried to hold the company to ransom, have always conducted ourselves professionally and followed industrial legislation. Our sickness rate, which should be higher than the rest of the company, is 33% below the company average. All we are after is a fair set of Ts and Cs compared to our International colleagues and also a degree of protection from BA farming our work out to cheaper operatives. I'm not sure what you do HZ123 but how would you feel if they took work away from you and gave it to some chap in Calcutta with a laptop and phone line?

The Cargo is BA Cargo, the callsign is a BA call sign - the work is BA work.


:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

erm yeah ok then

No I would rather end the practice of franchises, so BA aircraft and BA crews would fly the routes.

These franchises get all the benefits of BA and contribute only a small "rent" in return. With BA's high fixed cost base we'd be better off operating more flights and getting the fixed cost per flight down so that we can improve our margins.

Sick,

Yes mate :O oh, and you may find that it's not just F/o's who may bid for these vacancies, I believe that some junior captains may too.

seriously though, ALL of us at BA would far rather get ALL of the BA work back into BA, AND get you all onto the BA seniority list.

This was offered to BAcitiexpress pilots, but there BALPA company council told us to get stuffed - their loss.

As BB says, our pay 'change' ( it was certainly not a rise for all) only benchmarked us against other european majors - nothing else. Don't believe the propoganda.

As a former member of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force I consider my time still languishing in the right hand seat on a 747-400 a disgrace.
After serving Queen and Country and being decorated many times it is certainly my right to a BA command and if GSS is the only way I can avoid another 7 years in the right hand seat then so be it.
God help us I even have to fly with ex- cadet entry captains on the 747-400 now. I've forgotten more about aviation than they'll ever know.I shall look forward to my command at GSS.

LF

good luck with the course LF. enjoy the 744F - it's great

Still some misconceptions here amongst the BA community about franchises,- hence protagonists of their flying being taken over by mainline. The foreign based franchises could NOT be operated by BA. They do not have the traffic rights to so so and would almost certainly never get them. These companies therefore simply add reach and revenue to BA which it could otherwise never get. The UK regional operators could never sustain BA flight and cabin crew costs, the total being of course not just salary but the very expensive allowances structure as well. Even BA itself can not afford its shorthaul costs, - just look at the losses they make. Pure freight operations are very difficult to make money on. Its a very competitive market, yields are often dreadful and loads are highly directional,- hence often dead leg flying to get a decent uplift. The reality is that sub contracting is the only way for BA to make money on pure freight operations.

1) Foreign franchises are not included in the Scope agreement.

2) BA pilots don't have a very expensive allowance structure, they have a fixed rate per block hour and a fixed hourly rate for time away from base. Just like many other airlines.

3) Our UK regional operators seem to be able to pi55 their money up the wall without our help.

4) Shorthaul 'profitability' is whatever the accountants say it is, particularly when they divvy up revenue for transfer traffic based on percentages of trip mileages rather than the going ticket rates.

5) Cathay seem to do pretty well out of their in-house freighters, as do Lufthansa. BA is already one of the worlds top ten cargo shippers on belly cargo alone, they know exactly how to make money out of the industry. Its worth a damn site more than most passenger fares currently.

By the way, HZ123 is a ramp trainer at LHR, so if you want to know why it takes two men to operate a one man tug, or why only one union can chock an aircraft then he's your man.

So, HZ123,

why does it take 2 people to operate a 1 man tug, why can only certain people insert chox, why does 1 team offload bags and another onload them, why will 1 team refuse to do the other teams job if they get held up on their tea break.
HZ123, why can your mates not just get on with making our pax lives easier - 'cos it's them who pay us!!?
I'm not trying to wind you up or start some sort of slanging match, but when you are sat on the ramp with 4engines running, waiting for a tug, or when you see pax bags not being offloaded when there is a team there, then it does make the blood boil, 'cos if this sort of carry on doen't get sorted then we are ALL off to the Staines job centre.
Of course it's not always like this, most of the time your mates do a great job, but, it's the really crap days (of which there are no more) which everyone, mainly our customers, remember.