Retirement
 

In the vain hope that the Moderators do not delete or move this post and in the hope that those who are retiring will think about it, here’s my thoughts as a middle aged, average pilot.

In the last few months my company has had a few senior guys retiring and they’ve gone with nothing said.

They have remained flying throughout the pandemic, being at the top of the seniority list, whilst others have lost their jobs. They could have retired but didn’t.

Their own conscience will have to deal with this for years to come as they, in their 40’s, thought they were retiring at 60 so they’ve had an extra five years.

My main point is that they have left without a word!

In most companies there is a ‘public’ forum for staff and there are other ‘outlets’ available yet these retirees are leaving without a word being spoken about how terrible the job has become in a short space of time.

I hope this post sparks a lively debate because the current retirees have really enjoyed their careers and are now leaving to let the younger guys get on with it.

Selfish? Hopefully the moderators will let you decide.




If you had put it in the most suitable Forum to start with, there would have been no need to move this thread.

But you didn't, and I have 🙈

Senior Pilot

Surely as a 'Senior Jumbo 747' pilot you will set an example and quit so that the new folks can have your job. :)

The mods tend to delete (or move to a forum with 3 Active Users) any professional pilot stuff these days, it doesn't get the clickbait ad revenue I suppose.

Ha! S R doesn’t mean senior Dear Chap!

Cry me a river. You want to live by the seniority rules you have to accept its pitfalls as well as the upside, your place on the list for command for example. Perhaps seniority list should be done away with and the upgrade based on merit. Chief pilot would be getting so many invites he'd need a social secretary as folk suck up. Fail to see why anyone should toss their job, irrespective of what they do, so that another can retain theirs. Just because someone is nearing retirement doesn't mean they don't need the cash - people who have seen their retirement fund disappear with airlines going bust, chapter 11, world financial crisis etc etc Why should they say some thing, especially about how bad the job has become?

I'm afraid the lesson I draw from the quote, right or wrong, is that you come across as a Me, Me, Me.

Not sure what the leavers being referred to are meant to say…

I fit the demographic being described by the OP, and left a certain well known airline (maybe the one the OP is at) last year, before compulsory retirement age, as part of a widespread VR campaign….The company wanted as many a****** out of the door ASAP and quite understandably weren’t going to set up an equivalent of speakers corner in Crew Report to let those leaving have their final words..:bored:

Like many I’d hardly been a shrinking violet on the Union forum over the years, had stirred things up a bit on the company forum from time to time and tried to be honest about prospects at the company with anybody who I was communicating with by virtue of this place….

Not sure what else could reasonably be said or done…….

I understand the OP as not referring to VR, but actually those that did not retire early and instead continued throughout the pandemic to mandatory retirement age, only to have to retire now anyway.
Without knowing the country and golden handshake agreements though, it's hard to pick a side.

Selfish? I guess putting your own livelihood ahead of someone else's is always going to be considered selfish. Fortunately, I don't care if you think my failure to retire at your convenience is selfish.

I have earned my right to continue working as long as it suits me. I reckon this older people must retire is something that comes with the new generation of P2F pilots that think the world owes them a living.

I think you’re right, but I’m genuinely interested as to why the OP feels anybody who has retired (for whatever reason) has to stand on a soap box and offer explanations…

Firstly once you are out of the door your knowledge of how good or bad circumstances are at a company has become decays very very rapidly..secondly there have been people issuing warnings for years that some people needed to rose tinted glasses needed to be removed, and/or that various companies were perhaps not as wonderful as was commonly believed…

In aviation it's always better to go out without a whimper, rather than with a bang!

(It is to be hoped that the OP will also stand down from gainful employment, seeing that we are likely to have another lockdown, in favour of someone else with less seniority who needs a job).

Seeing as there aren't a lot of jobs at the moment, perhaps it's time for you as a middle-aged average pilot to stand aside for the younger guys too?

Get a grip mate.

You assume that those who are older with more seniority are in a financial position to leave….
to generously make way for the younger, less senior people who may be disadvantaged short term, but have
a longer term window to recover.

I am sure of lot of pilots have gone on that basis, but those who don’t are not necessarily greedy!

I find the notion that senior people should retire to "allow" the new wannabies to get a job or the junior staff a promotion is very selfish of the wannabies and juniors. The senior person has invested many years of training and preparation into their job - living in a rented room in the early years or commuting large distances etc etc, - probably before the juniors were even born. That the senior now lives in a big mansion with a new car every year is a testament to their years of hard work.

Having said that we can all think of the boring old fart Captain who only shows up once a month to fly to the best destinations and who should have retired years ago because they can barely see the instruments; have difficulty programming the FMGC, and cannot handle crosswinds any more.

This is in part a consequence of the ever increasing pay with seniority. Why should more years in the same job result in more pay?, (beyond inflation increases). Promotion, yes. Extra responsibilities, yes. More hours, yes. But more money for the same job, flights and same destinations? Very difficult, I imagine, for a very senior person, raking in several hundred grand a year plus pension contributions, to give all that up.

It should probably be decided by our AMEs and on ability in the SIM. If Captain Fred really struggles and his cognitive faculties have declined, then he should be put out to grass. If, however, he keeps himself physically and mentally fit, and can manage a modern jet, then why should he not continue? Very difficult though for a company TRE to make the call that his senior colleague is unfit. That could go either way with favouritism or hate of the candidate. Perhaps the CAA should conduct the SIMs of pilots above a certain age to avoid the TREs knowing the candidates?

As far as retiring people making some sort of statement. Well, if the retiree is popular and throws a party, they can of course get up and thank those who attended, and perhaps the company for many years of happy employment etc. Ditto if the company throws a party for the retiree. But generally, a card is produced by someone and signed by crews and staff wishing Captain Fred a happy retirement, not expecting Fred to make a statement, beyond thanking his colleagues for many happy years and getting him back to his hotel room down route after that dodgy bar where he somehow lost his trousers etc.

In my own employment previous to airlines, I have seen senior people circulate letters about why they are leaving and why the management are failing etc. These just come across as sour grapes, even if true: Either do something within the company to improve the situation, or just quietly move on.

One exception might be if the person was resigning or retiring over serious company safety concerns.

Crikey, I've been in the wrong job all these years. The last (and only) new car I bought was in 1982! :(

I've never bought a new car !

As a humble ex helo jock retired for 17 years bought a new car 6 months ago, nothing swish, CX-5. ST, working for who you did anything less than a Rolls Royce or Lamborghini woud seem to be slumming.

Well, once you know how it really works, it becomes very obvious how they got rich. The market value of my 21 year old, daily driver car is £125 according to my insurer! :O

:D well said!

Hopefully the mods will move this to Terms & Endearment, where it should have properly gone in the first place!

Or the bin.

French gliding instructor with Spanish heritage and Parkinson’s in his 70s - enthusiastic..great instructor..pleasure to see him flying..in contrast to some younger sour pusses, not pulling their weight and there for the free flying.
Who ever believed that life was supposed to be fair and balanced.
I’m still enjoying it after more than 50 years but haven’t been paid to do it since 1994..would love to get my arse in a jet again but don’t begrudge those that do..smell the air and stop moaning.

Why should he though?

I have never been in the situation of being a very senior pilot, but all pilots know that during the very good years, command could be as soon as 3 years, but in the bad years it could take 15+ years, depending on the aircraft type and the airline.

In a similar way, all wannabies should be aware that aviation goes in cycles: sometimes there is a glut of pilots and jobs are very scarce; other times there is a shortage.

Why senior pilots should make way for wannabies to get a job seems a bit arrogant to me.

Yeah, junior airline pilots should resign so more deserving wannabes in GA can get a go. Not likely.

Trouble is, this is the product of a generation who were in school education at a time when fair competition became outlawed and everyone had to be allowed to win.

Unfortunately, real life is one big competition.

Here are the top 14 rules of life excerpted from 50 Rules Kids Won’t Learn in School by Charles Sykes:

Rule 1: Life is not fair. Get used to it.
Rule 2: The world won’t care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something before you feel good about yourself.
Rule 3: Your school may have done away with winners and losers. Life hasn’t.
Rule 4: You will not make $60,000 a year right out of high school. And you won’t be a vice-president or have a company car. You may even have to wear a uniform that doesn’t have a designer label.
Rule 5: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. When you screw up, he’s not going to ask you how you feel about it.
Rule 6: It’s not your parents’ fault. If you screw up, you are responsible.
Rule 7: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: they called it opportunity.
Rule 8: You are not perfect, and you don’t have to be.
Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don’t get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.
Rule 10: Television is not real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.
Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you’ll end up working for one.
Rule 12: Life is actually more like dodgeball than your gym teacher thinks.
Rule 13: Don’t forget to say thank you.
Rule 14: Enjoy this while you can.

Charles Sykes: 14 Rules of Life They Won?t Teach You in School | Infographic A Day

Eat my Shorts, excellent!

Over my career I have seen junior pilots complain about the seniority system and how unfair it is and that they should not always have to work weekends.

Then they get a bit of seniority themselves and decide it is not a bad system after all. .Then they become senior and decide it is the best system.

Then they see junior pilots come in who complain about the seniority system...

I think it is wrong for the OP to expect senior pilots to step down to make room for the junior pilots. If senior pilots are able to and want to then fine.

Seniority was airline managements best invention. It contained movement of an expensive resource allowing to lower pay over time as they needed to worry less about loosing experience.

We're our own worst enemies.

As for the guy at the top not leaving. I can't understand why they should. The problem isn't the guy, it's a system most fall into, and by the time you'd fight away with it you'd be at the top loosing out on the perks.... until

Well…….Master Jumbo. Now that the moderators have moved your post to a more appropriate forum and admonished you with red ink, let me offer what I hope will be a qualified reply. Although I doubt we worked for the same company, I have also been forced to retire (although I have been threatening it for years) 2 years shy of my “life clock” turning Black and being sent for renewal on “Carrousel!” Truth be told the thought of a life of 24/7 with my wife does lend being chased by “Sandmen” a certain appeal……but I digress.

Let me correct you on a “point of order” when pilots of my generation came into flying 40 odd years ago, we were usually required to hang up our uniforms at age 55. The prospect of continuing on to 60 came much later, and indeed 65 later still. Nevertheless, it did enable us to enthral our colleagues for an additional decade in some cases, even when they were so tired their obvious enthusiasm had to fight through their yawns and heavy eyelids.

Now in that 40 years I managed to to become father to 7 children (just like captain Von trapp from the sound of music) although in all honesty mine didn’t seem to show me as much respect as his did, and they weren’t very accomplished singers either. That was a shame because they were bloody expensive to nurture! One of them even became an airline pilot, so I do feel as if I have played my part in giving back to the next generation of sky Gods! Indeed, once they all become tax payers I feel my costs to society will be fully covered and possibly a few others as well?

Now I know you will regard this as selfish, but I was hoping that a 25,000 hour career would culminate with a water cannon salute as all of my crews gathered for a tearful send off, all followed by magnums of quality champagne quaffed in celebration of a happy but poignant moment of reflection. Sadly that wasn’t to be, and even more sadly I watched as so many friends and colleagues had their lives totally upended by the events of the last two years. Worse still, I saw friends and colleagues struck down my serious illnesses that completely changed their lives and had nothing to do with viruses or seniority lists or anything else so glib. The sobering effect of that served to help me stop feeling quite so sorry for my own petty predicaments.

Now I am trying hard to properly understand what your complaint actually is? I rather got the impression that you seemed to be suggesting an “Eskimo solution” (Yes I know it’s Inuit or Yult these days, but I’m old and can get away with a certain degree of this now.) Whereby we unselfishly plonk our fat derrières on an ice flow only to be cast adrift by our younger tribe members. However, I’m afraid my young Jedi, that ain’t going to happen! I (perhaps erroneously) see a future of Champagne and Lobster (is that being Shellfish?) and that meant working every year I could, even if as Mr Heston might have said, it meant “prising this sidestick out of my cold dead hand!”

If my son had suggested that I unselfishly set aside my career in order to prevent the odd “bump in the road” on his, I would like to think that I would have sat him on my knee (although he is far to heavy and I think Osteoporosis has been undiagnosed in that same knee for far too long) and sang him some sort of Johnny Cash song about all the vast sums of money I have invested in him and his siblings over the years. Sadly, I am not much of a singer either (as many alcohol fuelled crew Karaoke attendees can attest to,) and when it comes to “Selfish” well…….,You better believe it! And don’t worry about my “conscience” keeping me awake at night either. It will have an overactive bladder and duvet snatching spouse to battle with for that honour!

Anyway….I may be maligning you slightly here as it is not entirely clear what the focus of your ire actually is? You suggest that your main point is that these Crusties “left without a word.” Well what did you want them to say…..”Goodbye?” If they are anything like me they are probably still waiting for you to arrange the leaving party to properly see them off before the ice flow is finally cast adrift by the sobbing hordes.

If you want them to pull up a soapbox and tell the world how awful flying has become……..Keep wanting! It wasn’t awful. I’ve had the fantastically good fortune to meet and fly with a dizzying array of absolutely wonderful people over the last 45 years. Indeed that’s another reason why I wouldn’t want it to end. However, if someone were to suggest that “Selfish” isn’t an attribute to be found in the universal group collective, I would laugh loudly!

GDAJB , great post.
I had my career snatched away by a very nasty medical diagnosis.
My advise would be for all Pilots of all ages to value every minute of your career. Do not give it away one minute earlier than you have to. One day it might all be taken out of your control.
Aviation is still full of fantastic people. Still a great career. Never ever take it for granted.
I had a great 40 years. I sincerely wish all the best for young Pilots going through this really crappy time.
This too will pass.

The best organization I ever had the pleasure of dealing with had a very interesting and workable seniority list workplace agreement.

In times of RIN or basically downsizing the rule was simple, one from the bottom of the list followed by one from the top. repeat.

To be honest it worked very well, everybody looked after each other, if it became a choice between lowering costs or losing people guess what, usually everyone kept their job. Crew churn was lower, no BS work practices where argued over because when the time came a young sprog was always closely followed by and old salt. The guys in the middle with families were generally safe but to busy looking after the family as opposed to ether end that were busy looking after themselves.

It defeated any cockpit gradient and them and us attitude, it kept the corporate knowledge intact, it gave most guys a clear direction. Dickheads were not tolerated and usually worked their way out of the system because everyone knew that working together was the only realistic way when both ends of the sausage gets trimmed as opposed only the fresh end.

TWOTBAGS— interesting philosophy…how does it cope with old salts that are busy looking after young families? :)

A valid question hunter boy as I am in the same position as you allude to.

The flying public would benefit greatly from the experience level of the older generation, the airline accountants would prefer the younger generation. Let me think.....an airline run by accountants? hmmmmm what could go wrong?

Great post; G-DAJB :ok:

7 children..!!??....... You almost have enough to open a Yorkshire Farm. (Programme on Ch 5).

Ha! The less said about farms the better mr U. I put the whole thing down to pasteurised milk. Cancelled the milk deliveries and no more children! QED.

Dear Chap wtf?. Obviously intent on avoiding the ageist expression " old chap", how new age is that?

Anyway I reckon Joe Root and Jimmy Anderson should retire in order to give a younger dear chap a go.

I'm not sure what to make of your post 747. What is it you are distressed over: the retirees saying nothing as they left or the retirees staying past age 60 to the legal age of 65? To the fact of them leaving you to carry on; what could be better? Perhaps you should state what would make you satisfied with your more senior comrades.

At AA after 09/11/2001 there was seniority list contraction. Shortly after that, President George Bush Jr. and the U.S. Congress changed the mandatory commercial pilot retirement age to 65. The whole seniority progression picture changed and many were happy and many were pissed. Most age less than 60 were pissed until they turned age 60. Most age more than 60 were happy until they turned age 65. All very elementary and understandable in terms of human nature and rolling with changes.

I was hired early 1990 and retired 2015 at age 60, ready to press on with retirement and a good life. I did not retire to be altruistic or as a favor to those junior. One day you will understand but on this day you display your naiveté.

Regards for a good career and take note of the many constructive posts here.