Willie said that London City will find this crisis even more challenging than other airports due to the profile of customer they mostly deal with. Take from that what you will.

Guys/ladies,
All this ‘debate’ about how CR should be implemented (LIFO/type specific/….) is surely only playing into the hands of the company? We are arguing amongst ourselves about who gets to hang when we should be concentrating on how we get rid of the noose. (The noose that hangs over all our heads!) BA must be wetting themselves as they monitor these posts.

Aviation is in a race to the bottom in America??

Puff, puff, pass, dude. Puff, puff, pass!!

B

It's been a race to the bottom for a couple decades at least, probably more......Freddy Laker cheap travel to Florida?
The self loading freight, talking baggage...insert other derogatory term for clients.....have been nibbling away at terms and conditions for years with the demand to go further for less. Large 'National carriers' have been slow to respond until like shifting tectonic plates, a seismic event happens and everyone has to live with the consequences.
I was once cornered by a taxi driver extolling the virtues of cheap air travel, he told me how he flew from Stansted to Newquay for £29, the story didn't end well though, when it was time to come back, Newquay was fogged in, the airline told the passengers they could have their money back or drive to Bristol for another flight, no hire cars available, etc, etc. Apparently it cost him a fortune to get his family back to Stansted, but even then he couldn't see the flaw in the new way of doing things and seemed to be a big fan of locos.

I'm pretty sure that pilots are happy to get more for less as well. It applies to food, clothing, electronic & electrical equipment, furniture, etc.

Yes, this is true. But, ILS is correct in what he says. I have suffered a lifetime of the sort of socialist rhetoric that he uses; but I really can’t fault his assessment of what is going on & what should be done to fight it. I am not, other than a PPL, a pilot. My career involved working hand in glove with pilots (commercial & private & military). I view them as the salt of the earth - as I also do my own fellow professionals. It is simply outrageous what BA appears to have in store for them , & their fellow staff members.

BACF have just announced possible redundancies of what amounts to 29% of pilots.
With a possible closure of the EDI base. ☹️

Kcockayne; I feel that the picture you relate of the staff is optimistic and I make that remark having recently completed 3 decades as a BA staff member. Management in my opinion has tended to be weak for far to long and to this end staff side have in the main been inflexible all to often. Regrettably, BA management have used the current situation as a stick to beat the staff with and simplify future contracts. Presently, there are literally thousands of differing contracts and staff side has always refused to address this problem. Your suggestions of reduced working, part time, unpaid leave etc sadly do not solve the problem which is to many staff. I would anticipate that Check-in and Ramp will be outsourced plus areas of the operation in an effort to retain more of the flying community. Either way it is a sad situation for the staff and the aviation industry but so many other areas of employment will suffer also.

Also a similar proportion of cabin crew. The numbers given are roughly equivalent to the number of EDI crew. Additionally it’s proposed cabin crew will lose roster change, disruption and dead head payments, plus unspecified efficient improvements and changes to the MOA.

It is ironic tho (serious point) that these MPs are the same people that hauled historic Thomas Cook execs in to ask them why they took on so much extra debt, didn’t take decisive leadership action to address their structures until they left it too late, ran out of cash, had little options available and the business failed. They cited lack of leadership and decisiveness to protect the business. I know it’s not a direct read across but surely it is better take the action when you have liquidity and hence time.....and who is to say this thing (or any other macroeconomic shock) doesn’t come along in 10 months time.....

Sadly, expecting ever lower costs seems to be many buyers' sole criteria. A flight for £5 less will get the booking over the competitor. Look on the website of a well known trade and DIY supplier, and one of the filters offered when searching for products is price. Not quality, not build materials, not country of manufacture, just price. And then house owners wonder why their new installation goes wrong or has poor performance.

Having said all that, some legacy contract BA staff have enjoyed frankly extremely generous salaries. BA CSD's for example earned more than I did as an F/O in other airlines, don't know if they still do.

Optimistic ? Maybe, But, this is not a normal downturn or airline running into cash problems. This is existential. This could make ALL the staff & the airline redundant. In these circumstances, it is realistic to feel that the staff will realise the extent of the airline's, & therefore their, problems. Everyone needs to make sacrifices & to pull together. I think that the staff realise this & acknowledge the extremely deep nature of their problems. They, of course, are not alone. Pretty much everyone in Europe is under the threat of a prolonged loss of work & income. What is needed is to keep the maximum number of staff in employment, even if that means severely reduced salaries. What is not needed is responses from Management such as BA's. A little bit of compassion & consideration is demanded from them - NOT a full scale blitzkrieg on people who are potentially down & out !

BA Management & IAG CEO
 

The Government is already looking at the possibility to take the flag back.
WW attitude the other day certainly did not help IAG in reassuring the UK Gov & tax payers.

"In the case of BA, it is easier than you might imagine for the Government to take control. Whilst British Airways is part of Spanish-run IAG, the legal structure makes such a deal fairly easy. At present, you have a company called British Airways plc which controls the airline. British Airways plc continues to publish its own accounts – the 2019 set can be downloaded here.

There are 2.1 million shares of British Airways plc in issue, all – or at least the majority – of which are owned by IAG. However, it would be very easy for British Airways plc to issue new shares for cash which were acquired by HM Government. Once the Government shareholding in British Airways plc went over 50.1% the Government would have a controlling stake although IAG would remain a minority shareholder.

It is important to note that there is no benefit in the Government buying a minority stake in British Airways plc because the shares are not liquid. IAG would still control the business and there would be no guarantee that the Government could sell its shares at a later date. It needs to be 50.1%+ or nothing"


With the present IAG & BA management a min of 50.1% stake owned by the UK government would be the best move. It would save jobs, protect T&Cs and generate huge profits once the crisis is over, excellent for both the UK economy and public funds.
Tactical move before Brexit completion by end of Dec. IAG is a Spanish entity hence Gov has got not choice.
In a way WW & IAG have done the UK Government a huge favour by giving sufficient ammunition to speed up the return of the national carrier under British Management.

"With the present BA management 50.1% stake owned by the UK government would be the best move. It would save jobs, protect T&Cs and generate huge profits once the crisis is over, excellent for both the UK economy and public funds."

Wow ILS27, this sounds far too good an opportunity to leave to the Government. I'll get my cheque book out straight away. You've really whetted my appetite with the prospect of huge profits.

And why on god's green earth would BA or IAG issue new shares for the government to buy, giving away voluntarily control of the company and diluting the current shareholders? It makes no sense. If the goverment wants control, the only thing it can do is buying the majority of the shares on the market, but they are simply not for sale.

Oh yes, because public ownership was such a success for British Airways in the past. I can’t understand why the Treasury aren’t drawing up the paperwork already!

This is not “the past” & this is not nationalization for the sake of political dogma. Furthermore, the same situation as exists with BA exists with many other airlines & with companies outside the aviation sector. Quite frankly, the whole industrial base is threatened with extinction. Where that would leave public order & the very existence of the State is anyone’s guess. This nationalization (& that of other industries) would be necessary in order to keep the industrial infrastructure of the country intact , & to give the country a chance of survival. Nothing less !

And the source for that assertion?

To be fair the questioning the other day at the select committee was so poor, I am not sure how you come to that conclusion. One MP got stuck in and rattled him a bit, but otherwise he was very comfortable.

M. Mouse; Exactly I have seen nothing in the press to suggest that the government might take a stake in BA. As already mentioned they have enough future issues and problems long before they worry about air travel. Besides what ever occurs there will be other airlines queuing up to fill in short falls!

IF it got to the point that BA had failed because things were so bad then somehow I doubt that assertion..

Am glad I'm not the only one who thought that.
I didn't see WW break a sweat. Could have been a lot worse.

I did post a comment about it being not so much a grilling, as a few minutes in the bun warmer. But it got deleted.

This was a possible source from March:

https://www.ft.com/content/1a52f686-...d-da70cff6e4d3

Air France, KLM, Alitalia, Emirates, Qatar, China etc etc could all easily muscle in under fifth freedom rights.

Compared to a month ago when I'd have said failure of IAG (or British Airways) was virtually impossible I'd be a lot more circumspect now. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if BA re-issues the HR1 with further redundancies in the next few weeks. :-(

Paywall Article

I managed to read it by Googling the title.

Aviation will be reshaped
 

I strongly believe that this unprecedented crisis will reshape aviation for ever.
Governments will do anything in their power to protect jobs, this goes together with protecting their national interest especially in the case of national aviation which is a highly critical service in any modern economy.
Standard rules of deregulated Aviation are out of the window.
We have seen nothing yet.
The world has changed for ever.
Aviation has changed for ever and Governments will have no choice unless the crisis ends within a few more weeks which is very unlikely.

ILS27LEFT;

Whilst your passion & energy is to be admired, I don’t unfortunately get the feeling that the UK Government share your view. It may be that they are overwhelmed by the enormity of the task ahead as all sectors / industries start to buckle under the pressure of this crisis.I think it’s easy for us involved in aviation to focus solely on it. I hope I’m wrong but I don’t expect any UK Government support beyond what’s already in place sadly.

Very interesting reading. See the second link for legal detail.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...om-redundancy/

https://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/wp-conte...l-Hutcheon.pdf

I think I'd want Darryl Hutcheon representing me.

Redundancies during JRS
 

This is exactly why redundancies whilst CJRS will still be available are "illegal" as I explained many times before.
The intention of the legislator will influence a Judge final decision. The intention of the legislator re. CJRS is clearly and undoubtedly "to avoid redundancies".
In this respect unfair dismissal would be the outcome.
The biggest challenge is not only the legal one for BA but the moral significance vs employees & tax payers/Gov: no employer should make redundancies if CJRS is available as this is free money with nil cost to the employer.
BA can legally announce redundancies however BA cannot proceed if CJRS still in place by date of 1st redundancy.
If BA will decide to proceed will clearly be "unfair dismissal". This will cause immense damage to the brand and workforce at a much higher cost than the 12K salaries combined.
Suicidal business approach by BA if they will proceed with the 12K redundancies whilst CJRS still in place at nil cost to BA.
"Darryl Hutcheon, a barrister at Matrix Chambers, argues that while each case will ultimately turn on its facts, employees who are dismissed without being given the option of furlough would likely have a “powerful argument” for unfair dismissal. "

The CJRS has been extended until end of October and very likely the Aviation sector will be covered until then under the existing conditions.
BA therefore will be "unfairly dismissing" employees if redundancies are confirmed whilst CJRS scheme is still available.

BA can action redundancies from 01 Nov but only if CJRS will not be extended again for the sector.
Next extensions will very likely be sectorised.

all of whom have problems of their own. It amazes me how people think that reality doesn’t apply to the financial situation during this pandemic and acquisitions and expansion can still go on as if there’s some sort of fantasy magic money tree.

(Well we know in the case of Alitalia and Air France financial reality doesn’t apply but any funding there is to continue to provide services to their individual country not a blank cheque to bankroll a mass expansion push to start fifth freedoming out of Heathrow and presumably other European Capitals. There’s also any number of reasons why the U.K. Government wouldn’t want that situation occurring).

Exactly. By which time, hopefully there'll be a fairer playing field for fairer negotiation. A legal friend said that on the back of BA's current battle-plan, if approached correctly, the employee claims on BA will run and run, and eventually cripple them.

This is exactly why the Government prefers to wait, the CJRS extension will allow for much better decision making including potential UK Gov stake in BA as final option.
The BA Legal Team is playing an extremely dangerous game here. A game much more expensive than the savings achieved through redundancies + new T&Cs.
Maybe they thought to be above the Law and above the Gov during this Crisis.
This Crisis is actually showing the good CEOs vs the bad CEOs, the good leaders vs the bad ones.
If we will see WW postponing his retirement again beyond Sep then we know this is personal to him.
BA should belong to the thousands of men & women who made it great and profitable over the years. Employees should also be shareholders by contract. If BA employees were shareholders I doubt Alex Cruz and WW would still be in charge now.

We better stop here.

I think it's also a matter of other CEO's being told by their legal departments not to go near it.

From the legal opinion linked above, it's not clear that BA making redundancies is a case of unfair dismissal - the barrister's view is far more nuanced than that.

BA's already made use of CJRS, the opinion focuses on use of CJRS rather than it's continued use when it becomes clear that the business won't recover, or will take a long time to recover post Covid and so need less staff

"Relevant factors would naturally include the size and resources of the employer, the employee’s responses to the consultation and to any proposed “furlough agreement”, and the suddenness and seriousness of the downturn which Coronavirus has caused for the business"

Airlines / travel sector have suffered a catastrophic collapse in demand that's going to continue for quite a while post lockdowns and so are going to need less staff.

If BA can make redundancies currently in its Cityflyer subsidiary I doubt that there will be much legally stopping them doing the same to mainline. The best the staff might get is that the threat of legal action, even if rather futile in the end, may make the company improve the redundancy terms. I dont see any airline coming out of this crisis with the same amount of staffing as they went in with - there are going to be many colleagues out of work for a long time.

This last sentence highlights the mindset that so many have, and that they may wish to try to change. I doubt many of your colleagues will be out of work for long at all. They are most likely intelligent and driven people and they are unlikely to struggle to find work ... but it probably won’t be in aviation.

I have an uncle who lives in the North East and has been unemployed for around 25 years. He is fit, healthy and not stupid, but my god he is stubborn. He was a miner, and lost his job when the pits closed. He could do all manner of things, but he won’t. ‘He is a miner, and there is no work in mining, so he cannot work’. And that is that. He refuses to accept his chosen vocation is no longer an option, and so he festers.

It will be a bitter pill to swallow, but aviation has just changed. The definition of change is a permanent altering of state. This is happening now and will continue to do so for an unknown period of time. When the rate of change stabilizes and we all take stock, we will look upon a different industry. The one we knew has gone, it is dead, and by definition will never come back as it was.

The new reality for civil aviation will probably be a much smaller industry, salaries will be lower and the work/life balance will be worse (all my opinion - not fact). Market forces will see to this.

People can accept this change and try to stay in the industry, or they can moan and whine about what they have lost, or they can re-invent themselves and succeed elsewhere.

I have spent my life in aviation, and it is full of smart, honest and resourceful people. I very much doubt they will find themselves out of work for long, unless they choose to.

I think you're right. I'm departing these forums from now on. Good luck!

On the other hand; when practically the whole country is out of work in a depression the likes of which the world has never seen before, what are the chances of a few thousand ex airline staff picking up any kind of work ?

I know of a former FlyBe pilot who is now a Tesco delivery driver.