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-   -   Captain’s expectations of a new FO. (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/611635-captain-s-expectations-new-fo.html)

Chesty Morgan 25th Aug 2018 22:29

What you mean to say is use airmanship. Which is learnt from experience and not taught in the sim or a classroom.

pineteam 26th Aug 2018 06:56

Funny enough, some guys have good airmanship since day 1 and some will never get it! I'm with you TPE Flyer. I think the attitude plays a big role. Many times some Fos will make annoying inputs when I'm PF like: '' Do you want me to request heading to the right? '' For an isolated CB clearly visible in day time 100nm ahead... Like dude! If I want a heading I will ask you! and we are still so far out so what's the stress?! I'm PF, I'm not blind and I have no intention to scare my passengers so in due time I will request deviation. Or some guys will request descend when I'm PF just because they see the TOD arrow like 10 miles ahead... Like WTF? What about asking me first? It would never come to my mind to do such a thing especially as a Fo. Some of them they just don't get the concept. Many many times, Fos do stuffs that I'm thinking in my head: '' Jeez, I would never have done such a thing as a Fo!'' I have been on the left for 1 year and 3 months, and I can count in one hand maybe 2 at best, the time I have given a gentle verbal input to the Fos and it was purely because it would have triggered a QAR ( for instance they keep max reverse below 70kt IAS, at 45 kt it triggers a red QAR.) or we would not have been stabilized. But yet, some Fos, will give me like 10 inputs or annoying suggestions during one sector... And to be clear I'm not saying it's an FO thing, they are a minority in fact. I had the same, actually much more issues being on the right with douchebag on the left treating me like the third AP, spoon feeding me all the time during the approach and stressing like hell due weather... I guess some of them don't trust me or get those bad habits from those unconfident captains.. Lol:}

jagema 30th Aug 2018 11:08


Originally Posted by TPE Flyer (Post 10233087)

I don't need to be told that the trigger for brake fans is 100 degrees when I ask you to put them on at 80 degrees because I have a 3km taxi ahead of me at MTOW. Thats called situational awareness.

I don't need a lecture because I am using and have briefed NAPD 1 for strategic reasons when the SOP says 1000/1000. Thats called Command Jugdement.
​​​​​​

Gee, you must be so fun to fly with.
As a matter of fact, yes, you need to be told these things. This is literally the FO's job description. Now the FO might not recognise why you might be doing them, they do know when or how these things need to be done. Accept that sometimes flight crew aren't on the same page, you might need to explain the reasoning behind your actions, and carry on. For your FO to tell you the things that you might not know which might endager safety, you need to accept that you will sometimes, most times, receive comments on things that you do know. It is part of the job. But approaching an FO's remarks with the mentality of "I don't need to be told this" or "lectured on that" destroys CRM in the flight deck. You want your FO's to speak up and be critical, and not be known as that Captain whose FO's just sit there and look nice.
Safe flying

Murtoman 30th Aug 2018 16:24


Originally Posted by jagema (Post 10237258)
Gee, you must be so fun to fly with.
As a matter of fact, yes, you need to be told these things. This is literally the FO's job description. Now the FO might not recognise why you might be doing them, they do know when or how these things need to be done. Accept that sometimes flight crew aren't on the same page, you might need to explain the reasoning behind your actions, and carry on. For your FO to tell you the things that you might not know which might endager safety, you need to accept that you will sometimes, most times, receive comments on things that you do know. It is part of the job. But approaching an FO's remarks with the mentality of "I don't need to be told this" or "lectured on that" destroys CRM in the flight deck. You want your FO's to speak up and be critical, and not be known as that Captain whose FO's just sit there and look nice.
Safe flying

+1

Sometimes it baffles me how hard can it be to give a simple explanation of doing something nonstandard.
Take this example of the brake fans. If you as a captain know that you will be needing brake fans for a 3km taxi at MTOW, why not mention it when a non-standard item is asked for? It would literally take seconds of effort. I would be surprised if any F/O at this point would question the judgement. He might learn a great lesson there too, with little to no effort needed from the LHS.

-M

Information Unicorn 31st Aug 2018 08:03


Originally Posted by jagema (Post 10237258)
Gee, you must be so fun to fly with.
As a matter of fact, yes, you need to be told these things. This is literally the FO's job description. Now the FO might not recognise why you might be doing them, they do know when or how these things need to be done. Accept that sometimes flight crew aren't on the same page, you might need to explain the reasoning behind your actions, and carry on. For your FO to tell you the things that you might not know which might endager safety, you need to accept that you will sometimes, most times, receive comments on things that you do know. It is part of the job. But approaching an FO's remarks with the mentality of "I don't need to be told this" or "lectured on that" destroys CRM in the flight deck. You want your FO's to speak up and be critical, and not be known as that Captain whose FO's just sit there and look nice.
Safe flying

What he/she said. 100%.

Ever heard of the phrase “sharing the mental model”?

Information Unicorn 31st Aug 2018 08:15


Originally Posted by ezydriver (Post 10215771)
Turning up habitually early is a no no. When I walk into a crew room and find my FO at the briefing table with all 4 OFPS printed out and sections of the NOTAMS/WX all highlighted for
me at report time I now know that the FO
is not compliant with the FTL scheme in a company where pilot fatigue is a major issue. Unfortunately said FO’s think this is how to get along in said airline due to the culture. No. Try to think for yourself. If there isn’t enough time provided we take the time required and to hell with the schedule. Turning up early covers over the problems.

Rubbish. You don’t know that at all. It could be for many reasons*, maybe worth asking them to find out, start off with some CRM?

* flying with a Captain that “hogs” the flight plans, doesn’t involve the FO, and is close to retirement (although in that case the FO is a little stuck between doing his job and having a bearable day)

* having had plenty of rest, traffic was light, no queue at security and arrived 20 mins early. Are they going to wait for you to turn up to start? Of course not

* being someone who has been burned before with 56 pages of FCO NOTAMS... 😂

* just someone who wants to be (note - doesn’t HAVE to be) early and prepared. Maybe it was not min rest from last nights late ALC, for the first time in ages

* etc.


Meester proach 11th Sep 2018 20:37

“ find my FO ...” says it all.

whats he supposed to do , wait outside until report time to fit your cynical and jobsworth view of the role.

i pity the poor bugger that gets four sectors with that attitude

Daddy Fantastic 12th Sep 2018 17:36

Who gives a toss what a captains expectations of a new FO are anyway? Two individuals just need to do their own jobs professionally and objectively.

FlightDetent 12th Sep 2018 21:45


Originally Posted by pineteam (Post 10233411)
Funny enough, some guys have good airmanship since day 1 and some will never get it! I'm with you TPE Flyer. I think the attitude plays a big role. Many times some Fos will make annoying inputs when I'm PF like: '' Do you want me to request heading to the right? '' For an isolated CB clearly visible in day time 100nm ahead... Like dude! If I want a heading I will ask you! and we are still so far out so what's the stress?! I'm PF, I'm not blind and I have no intention to scare my passengers so in due time I will request deviation. Or some guys will request descend when I'm PF just because they see the TOD arrow like 10 miles ahead... Like WTF? What about asking me first? It would never come to my mind to do such a thing especially as a Fo. Some of them they just don't get the concept. Many many times, Fos do stuffs that I'm thinking in my head: '' Jeez, I would never have done such a thing as a Fo!'' I have been on the left for 1 year and 3 months, and I can count in one hand maybe 2 at best, the time I have given a gentle verbal input to the Fos and it was purely because it would have triggered a QAR ( for instance they keep max reverse below 70kt IAS, at 45 kt it triggers a red QAR.) or we would not have been stabilized. But yet, some Fos, will give me like 10 inputs or annoying suggestions during one sector... And to be clear I'm not saying it's an FO thing, they are a minority in fact. I had the same, actually much more issues being on the right with douchebag on the left treating me like the third AP, spoon feeding me all the time during the approach and stressing like hell due weather... I guess some of them don't trust me or get those bad habits from those unconfident captains.. Lol:}

Store this gem, pinteam. You will be so ashamed to read it in one year's time, and so amused in 5. Where TPE Flyer gets it right, and he does, you got it all upside down.

Come on. man. They trying to prove themselves in your eyes. Being pro-active. Showing they think ahead. Being assistive to relieve you of the mundane task of flying, so that you can focus on being the Master. You are their natural role-model, having made it to LHS so quick especially. Are they overdoing it - most likely yes! Your choice of language leaves enormous room for character development.:D

ford cortina 20th Sep 2018 21:24

Have a bloody Torch, not your phone.
we are professionals after all

CloudMedic 22nd Jul 2023 23:25

After several years since posting this original question, it’s been great fun re-reading the replies. It’s clear 99% of the replies came from legends who were keen for a naive NTL FO to succeed and I thank you for the advice. I have to say the best advice came from JPJP who demonstrated the type of pilot I did not wish to become and pleased to say I haven’t.

Greenlights 4th Aug 2023 08:59


Originally Posted by TPE Flyer (Post 10233087)
​​​​​​

I don't need to be told that the trigger for brake fans is 100 degrees when I ask you to put them on at 80 degrees because I have a 3km taxi ahead of me at MTOW. Thats called situational awareness.

I don't need a lecture because I am using and have briefed NAPD 1 for strategic reasons when the SOP says 1000/1000. Thats called Command Jugdement.

I shouldn't have to repeat myself when I say don't change the cruise speed while we are bumping a long in TB at out OPT ALT (which happens to be pur REC MAX) with a very small margin to MMO. Thats called safety.

​​​​​​

so basically you don't need to communicate anything you do, because the FO has to read your mind.
communication is basic skills.

Oasis 4th Aug 2023 20:42


Originally Posted by ford cortina;[url=tel:10254162
10254162[/url]]Have a bloody Torch, not your phone.
we are professionals after all

boomer!

OutsideCAS 5th Aug 2023 10:00


Have a bloody Torch, not your phone.
If it does the same job, who cares. :rolleyes:​​​​​​​

Chesty Morgan 5th Aug 2023 12:09

It doesn't!

OutsideCAS 7th Aug 2023 10:53


It doesn't!
Mine does. It illuminates dark areas. I guess what you have might not be a torch.

Chesty Morgan 7th Aug 2023 12:48


Originally Posted by OutsideCAS (Post 11480619)
Mine does. It illuminates dark areas. I guess what you have might not be a torch.

Can it illuminate the top of the fin?!

I've never seen a 'phone torch thats powerful enough for anything more than a few feet away🙄

Capn Bloggs 7th Aug 2023 13:16

@OutsideCAS you're kidding yourself if you think a phone "torch" can replace a proper torch.

OutsideCAS 7th Aug 2023 13:46

No I'm not. Mine works just fine. Its not a huge number of lumens (about 50) and is like most cheap and small torches. Perhaps your both in need of a eye test? :E.

Chesty Morgan 8th Aug 2023 09:58

Doesn't matter how good or bad your eyesight is if what you're trying to see in the dark is still...in the dark.


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