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Ryanair pilots identify themselves as new employee council following rostering fiasco
I think it is time for a new thread. Five Ryanair pilots based in Portugal have identified themselves as representatives of a new EERC.
Huge respect for these 5 pilots! https://m.independent.ie/world-news/...-36317295.html |
Really good news, but I doubt nothing major will happen until the EERC/union manage to organize a strike in two or three major bases at the same time.
It’ll get really ugly :hmm: Nevertheless massive respect for the guys stepping up. |
Rumours abound that STN based pilots are going to accept ryr's offer!
please tell me this isn't true after all that has happened := !!!! :( |
That’s not true
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Just that I heard it from two different independent sources today!.....
I hope :suspect: you're correct |
I’ve heard rumours that the company is approaching individual pilots with the company bypassing their own ERC process to try and get “tame” individuals into meetings to sign contracts. who knows... this is Ryanair!!
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That's exactly the approach another smaller Irish carrier* based in Swords took recently; call up crew, ask them what they're going to do, make a note of it and dick around with their rosters if they didn't parrot the company line or answer their phone.
Entertainingly, nothing happened if a crew member had told the manager concerned what they wanted to hear and then "changed their mind". Their manager was probably just calling them because (s)he'd been instructed to and had to have known what was going on, but provided (s)he could tick the box (s)he could move on. So, lying => bad; changing your mind following a telephone call => fine. Bonus entertainment value was that it screwed with management plans. *whose name rhymes with easyjet. |
Labor problems at Ryan Air piece in the New York Times,
Jet Pilot Might Not Seem Like a ‘Gig,’ but at Ryanair, It Is https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/b...r-pilots.html? |
Originally Posted by skyloone
(Post 9958377)
I’ve heard rumours that the company is approaching individual pilots with the company bypassing their own ERC process to try and get “tame” individuals into meetings to sign contracts. who knows... this is Ryanair!!
Ryanair brings Irish Independent and journalist to court · TheJournal.ie |
Good to see more are getting involved so hats off to the guys in Portugal !
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The German pilots have also announced a company council
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UK are pushing for unity and consulting on the best way forward. UK legislation is problematic but a combination of ERC UK and BALPA may provide the collectivism that has been missing from UK compared to the rest of Europe. Please hold the line, get behind the union and keep on pushing.... This is not a today struggle that a quick win can resolve - pilots need a collective voice, collective bargaining and the ability to execute collective action if needed to make sure that medium and long-terms needs are also met. Come on guys.
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Word from FR troops is that UK regional bases now have high BALPA membership. Folk openly talking about their membership. Fear factor disappearing fast. STN needs work but improving slowly. Some historical resistance but the penny seems to be dropping.
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I guess this is the equivalent in English : German union tells Ryanair pilots industrial action is likely | Article [AMP] | Reuters :)
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Originally Posted by Can737
(Post 9958744)
Of course they are. Their legal machine is working full pin in order to attempt to intimidate all the people who are trying to expose their disgusting labour practices. It is time for EU to step up if necessary and stop this non sense.
Ryanair brings Irish Independent and journalist to court · TheJournal.ie |
Ryanair does not recognise trade unions and instead negotiates with pilots via an internal collective bargaining system it says is recognised by Irish law.
This is a quote taken from #15 link to German press release. How does this jive with the declaration by a European court that RYR personnel can take legal action in the courts where they are based? Just because it is claimed the Irish law acknowledges the ERC system, why should that impose it on personnel employed outside Ireland if they have recourse to their local courts? A lawyer may have the answer. |
Irish law acknowledges the ERC system however Ryanair (as usual) is showing no respect whatsoever and on Thursday the ERC in EMA (not the smallest base in the network) was bypassed by the management that, following a visit in the crew room, had the addendum approved after the exorbitant number of 33 pilots voted, out of which 7 against and 7 abstained. Will STN be next?
Current situation is that they are advertising better pay and conditions than Jet2 and Norwegian however people thinking to join should know that it is a blatant lie, and they would be joining a poisonous outfit based on bad treatments, threats, zero respect and especially lies. They pride themselves of having hired over 1000 pilots in 2017, which may be even the truth, however there was no mention of the 910 pilots that left the company in the period January 2017-October 2017. And majority of those 1000 being two stripes cadets that have and will be waiting for 2/3 months (at 0€/month) to start their line training with a disrupted roster. The biggest problem here is that the ignorant and low culture people sitting in Dublin think that Ryanair is THE company, and all the workers should be thankful to work for such a gig, bending over for whatever request/abuse they feel like serving that day. The conditions I outlined should be well known already across the industry, and new pilots joining will get screwed sooner or later, just a matter of time. If you join you accept all of this. When that happens don’t wonder around the crew room complaining about the t&c, in desperate need of talking with the base captain, as having a conversation with a brick wall would be more profitable. I salute the guys in Germany and Portugal. They have been really brave. I hope that for the sake of the company those actions will lead somewhere better. Unfortunately though, as of today, the only way to change things for good in there is still to leave for better outfits. You have been warned (yet again). Be wise. |
Agreed 100%
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FB: If, as you allege, the approved (by m'luds) collective bargaining system is either not what it says on the tin, or is being bypassed, would it not be incumbent upon them to revisit their original decision? Or is it case that there is nothing wrong until there is a complaint? if that is the case then it is clear & obvious where the solution lies.
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Maybe the situation is more like this:
- IE law enables company to not accept union recognition, provided an alterantive is established; - Ryanair established an alternative in form of using ERC, each ERC representing a local base of few employees and dealing directly with management regarding contracts; - Due to low employee count, due established contractor working arrangements, only a small number of voters are required to accept any deal offered by the company; - All ERC offers from company are "take it or leave it", either accept the deal on the table we are 'kind enough' to offer or get nothing instead; - There is NO bargaining, just the above "take it or leave it"; - Few employees in each base are desperate to retain their 5/4 roster and thus will vote for any deal on table which alternatively may upset their home life; In practice, based on information freely available in these forums, lets see how this would work: Let us assume a vote in a base of 4 aircraft, at 5.2 pilots per aircraft thus 21 pilots for each function in the base, only half the captains have contracts, so 10 are allowed to vote, one of which is a management representative pilot, of these 10 2 pilots abstain from voting as they are not happy to vote on the deal offered or are on annual leave or similar when voting takes place and thus not consulted, the remaining are split 3 yes/5 no, the company then adds the 2 non voters to the yes vote to make it 5/5 and accepts the deal for the base... :eek: 3 people in this sample are voting in favour and accepted a 'deal' for all 22 pilots in the local base workforce, do the maths... Is there however a bargaining scenario when this is how ERC system works, me thinks not :rolleyes: The original decision must be revisited as there clearly is a discrepancy in the ERC setup of what a collective bargaining system should look like. It works in favour of company in all scenarios. Currently it appears from the press that multiple local ERC representatives of the pilot body across EU/UK are wanting to join forces to collectively address the company offer and terms & conditions, to ensure a common set of conditions for all employees, to ensure similar conditions and terms are available to all and transparent to see when required to change base. Clearly it is not in the interest of the company to engage with multiple bases at once as it would give their advantage away which currently serves them so well using their established "divide and conquer" techniques, by giving each base a little less than others for no reason, then attempting to put out positive news that base ABC has accepted a new deal by negotiation to persuade other bases to follow suit. := |
Pilots are not the only ones encumbered with the ERC system in FR. And I remember there was no vote on who was to be a, by the company paid, ERC rep, if there was only 1 candidate. And who in their right career mind would stand against the mgmt suggestion.
I asssume this is the same for the proposals; There is no real vote if there is only one offer on the table, the one mgmt presents. (I certainly never heard of any vote over a pay-increase offer in my 14 years there, of which about 11 of them under the ERC system.) And they have therefore hitherto been seen as accepted by default. Except now an alternative of "no deal" has come to the fore. (An option not contemplated by a money focused mgmt that never thought anybody would say no to a pay-rise.) So voting rules, set by the creators of the system, has emerged to swing marginals. |
https://www.swealpa.se/news.asp?nid=52&cid=1&s=3&p=3
Ryanair Pilots – Give us secure employment practices For more than two months’ the pilots of Ryanair have clearly stated the desire to enter into meaningful collective negotiations with the airline. So far, Ryanair have refused to respond to the requests of a great majority of its pilots. - It is obvious that Ryanair must negotiate national collective agreements with its pilots to ensure that both national and European law is complied with, says Martin Lindgren, president of Svensk Pilotförening (SPF) (Swedish Air Line Pilots’ Association). What started with a number of flight cancellations from different airports in Europe in September soon developed into a media crisis for Ryanair when thousands of flights were cancelled and hundreds of thousand passengers affected. The official reason for the cancellations later was given as leave allocation for its pilots however information from inside the company indicates pilots are resigning from the airline in droves leaving it understaffed. Over the past two months’ the Pilots of Ryanair have unified under the imposed structure of Employee Representative Committees. A large majority of the nearly 90 pilot bases across Europe have informed the company that further negotiations on their behalf should be conducted through the EERC, European Employee Representative Committee, a body formed by and run by Ryanair Pilots. The pilots are asking for basic rights: Give us the right to organise and bargain collectively. Give us the right to a secure employment model. Give us the right to choose our own representatives. A majority of the Ryanair Pilots in Sweden have now elected a Company Council in Svensk Pilotförening. Today, SPF informed Ryanair of this development and urges the company to immediately enter into negotiations with its Pilots through the EERC. Seven Pilots from the Company Council have stepped forward and revealed their names to Ryanair as the newly elected representatives of the Pilots in Sweden. |
Freedom of Association and the right to bargain (i.e. as a trade union) are part of the human rights code which AFAIK Ireland has subscribed to. Replacing trade unions with a company built committee is bullsh*t.
Ryanair pilots will ultimately have to organize and bargain themselves but as it will be beneficial to most pilots if the kingdom of self-employed-pilots gets changed, supporting them in their endeavour now might be a good idea. |
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...h-demand-talks
”.. The confrontation will continue. Each side is waiting to see which blinks first.” Hats off for Sweden for stepping up :ok: |
Ryanair pilots only need to keep on doing what they do right now, talk to each other, get organized, the house of cards is slowly crumbling down.
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https://amp.independent.ie/business/...-36344561.html
Italian civil aviation union Anpac is the latest European aviation union to see a new Ryanair company council established under its umbrella with the intention of negotiating a collective labour agreement with the Irish carrier. National aviation unions in Ireland, Italy, Germany, Portugal and Sweden now have Ryanair company councils formed under their auspices. More are set to follow suit, it's understood. "We are pleased to advise you that Ryanair pilots based in Italy have decided to form the Ryanair Company Council in Anpac," the Italian union's international director Riccardo Canestrari told Ryanair CEO Michael O'Leary in a letter. Ten Ryanair staff pilots have been named in the letter as being the members of the new company council in Italy. Ryanair said that it doesn't comment on union correspondence. The new councils are designed to put pressure on management to begin talks on national and pan-European collective labour agreements at the airline. It's something Ryanair and Mr O'Leary have already opposed, and will undoubtedly continue to strenuously do so. A new European Employee Representative Committee (EERC) was formed during the fallout from Ryanair's recent pilot rostering debacle. The EERC wants to be a single representative body for Ryanair pilots across Europe. But Ryanair management have refused to recognise the EERC and any efforts at wider collective representation at the carrier, which is non-unionised and does not recognise unions. It currently relies on a system of Employee Representative Committees (ERCs) at each of its almost 90 bases. It negotiates pay and conditions with each of them on an individual basis. The structure was established by the airline, which points out that the ERCs have been recognised by the Supreme Court as a legitimate means to engage with pilots. |
Total Meltdown?
My impression is that hardly any Airberlin , Monarch or Alitalia pilots are joining Ryr. Why would they.
It must be perfect for all the Airbus operators to top up with some good pilots, and routes. It appears that there is not enough first officers ready for upgrade , courses cancelled and some not full. Some Type rating courses postponed, lack of SFIs.? Ò"Loony is said to have interfered directly with operations and training schedule. With catastrophic consequences medium and long term, just to save day to day departures. Base Captains having home office instead of Wednesdays in crew room, and full 5 on 4 off. All the new hired cadets are only potential line pilots.The cue for linetraining is months and months. Will be some crying on the phone to Mommy and Daddy for more cash this winter. Tough luck! A heads up to You that are going to Norwegian: Ryr has a Mole in Norwegian feeding info of new hires to Ryr. I am not sure witch picture to use, but engine-testing at full power without oil, to collect test data on an new engine for certification looks somewhat appropriate. Anyway: Storm coming, gone fishing! |
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I'm told there are around 15 mon Cpts on a course now
I chatted to 1 of them today, all seem happy with their bases, I think they were man and Bhx based with mon, so are just happy to be able to stay at their bases and not have commute down south or abroad. This chap was saying lots are off to Eastern Europe (Wizz) and Keflavik (Wow) |
The structure was established by the airline, which points out that the ERCs have been recognised by the Supreme Court as a legitimate means to engage with pilots. |
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