To be honest I don't think any harm has been done. Her last name hasn't been mentioned and if I were to mention a "Gertrude" or something in relation to BA then I am sure there would be someone called that within BA. I've edited mine just as a precaution.

Deano777: I can actually here your sarcastic tones punching through there. lololol.

Scandinavian contract?
 

Does anyone know how the SAS contract is crewed? Is it a "separate" recruitment or is it manned by ordinary Flybe? Also interested in their pay / roster / hiring situation for those scandinavian routes.

Its a completely separate setup, the flight crew are all employed through a contract agency. Interestingly they have just fought for and won some better terms and conditions. Some useful background information here:

Flybe expands white-label operations after Swedish strikes | MRO Network

I like that Flybe uses a term - white label- that comes from the underground rave/house record music scene of the 1980s and 90s. How down with the kids are they :}

Thanks,
No much info to be found about GEC I'm afraid. Does anyone know if they use other bases than ARN? Saw them at TRD the other day and figured they might have opened up at Gardemoen... wishful thinking I guess!
The new terms, details anyone?

It's a good airline for your first job, but that's about it. The recruitment was a bit of a mess. We all received the "Dear xxx, There are no jobs at present", 2 days before being called for interview!

The rosters are very tiring but I was always impressed with the safety culture. As for base moves, promotion etc.... This was controlled way too tightly by HR with little policing and consequently people moved out of seniority. If you complained, you were told to wind your neck in. Be careful of getting stuck on the Dash as you enter your 30's. Flybe are aware that the prospect of a Jet job diminishes from this point onward and you suddenly feel you are being left out to pasture, as those around you move onto Jets. A friend of mine was told his D8 command would have to be back at the base he spent 18 months getting away from, despite vacancies existing in his current base. When he complained and threatened to leave, the response from HR was "and where do you think you will go??".

Needless to say there was a mass exodus in the early 2000's and we all moved to Jet operators. If they offered a more stable lifestyle and better roster stability but kept the same salaries, then for some it would become a career airline. Alas, they were never that sharp, so a constant revolving door of pilots adds to training and recruitment costs, which eats away at the bottom line. Cest la vie.

Former Flybe Dash 8 driver here. First jet job at 33, now flying for the UK's flag carrier. Take the above with a pinch of salt.

RexBanner I wouldn't disregard matxpenetrations post I would simply say it was most likely an earlier time. The current wave of UK experienced pilot recruitment will not last forever and while Flybe is by no means a terrible place to be, my advice would be to get out now while the going is good. Mass exodus has been ongoing for over a year and still no improvements in T&Cs. Below average pay for above average workload.

Recruitment is completely pot luck anyway.

Hi ,
Just wondering if anyone has gone through the CTC selection for DEC D8Q400 on the 17th and would like to confirm that it's the usual assessment day that CTC runs for other applicants ? Cheers ,
Perceval

Can someone explain what the night stops are at BHX?

Is it 1 night after a few sectors or is it positioning down route for 5 days at a time ??

Thanks

This could be out of date now, but previously it was 2/3 nights in the IOM, a Düsseldorf split duty, and the Brussels contract which is a mix of positioning or flying yourself out, then 4/5 day trips.

Then honestly, unless it's changed, which I hear it hasn't, it was anywhere crewing decided to send you that day, (any base on the network) sometimes position, sometimes a taxi, sometimes a hire car, 1/2 nights out of base.

I always found it was best to just regard all days in work as days away from home, regardless of what your roster initially said, then you couldn't be dissappointed. Works for some, not so much for others.

@RHS

Sounds bad. Maybe not at the beginning of a career but certainly when in the LHS and doing the job a while already. Just resigned from an outfit that just did the same - 14-17 days/month not at home at all.

With age you start to appreciate sleeping in your own bed ^^.

My view
 

Having spent 8 years at Flybe and now moved on to a bigger jet operator my take is:

Fantastic training, superb culture, great camaraderie, lovely small and friendly bases. The Dash 8 is noisy, unreliable but fun to fly and a great first airliner type. The Embraer is simply the finest aircraft I have ever flown and way better than the B737-800 and A320 operated by rival airlines. When you think the A320 first flew around 1988 and the Embraer around 2004 it's like comparing one of those yuppie brick phones to an iphone 6!!

On the downside though the workload is punishing - you'll get 9 days off a month and do mostly 4 sector days. This compares with around 12-14 days off at my current operator and mostly 2 or 3 sector days. Factor in the fact that as a new joiner I now earn around 200% of a Q400 FO salary or 150% of an E-jet FO salary and get 3-5 more days off a month and you can see why people are leaving in droves.

I had a great time at Flybe, I owe them a lot - indeed if the e-jet future had been more certain at the time I might have stayed long term but the overriding issue for me was their poor attitude to the plight of staff. If you work your staff harder and pay them less and don't listen when they complain about appalling crew food, poor rosters, low salaries etc then they will leave. Many people would stay even with the lower than market rate salaries if the lifestyle compensated for it, but sadly it doesn't.

Those of us that have moved on still look back with fondness for the camaraderie, the people and the friendliness of the place. In truth you probably can't better it anywhere in England and I truly truly miss that element and in weaker moments sometimes wonder if I really did the right thing. Then I pick up my pay slip at the new outfit, glance at my comfortable credit balance and know why I left...

Desk Pilot. What I would have said pretty much. The company I knew has gone. It was a decent ish lifestyle when I was there and certainly the Embraer whilst poor pay for a jet, wasn't that bad when the local lifestyle was as it was. The monthly hours on the Embryo ex Belfast were about 40 in low months to 75, max 82 in the high and an annual of average of 550-600. Then the barman called in the bar tab and the party ended. Now it's a different period so my info is out of date. I hear from friends it is hard work with 900 and the minimum 9 days off.

Ethos back then made it one of the most friendly places I've worked. Like a big family. I think former flybees still consider themselves a wider family. I loved it. I wasn't someone that chose to leave, more circumstances of the time prevailed me into the situation. Although from what I hear the workload is now, I feel that I wouldn't have stayed to be in that same old lifestyle for very long. My memories are primarily from the Embraer which I loved. Fantastic training environment on the Embraer and supporting operation. I wasn't mad on the dash side of things and wouldn't feel mega keen to rush back to that, but that's me.

Duty days were not that long to be honest back then. No jet lag, 1 hour long mini flights to easy enough airports, 7-8 hours duty maybe. Not the mammoth deep night duties you get in Charter or LH. People moaned about disruption when they were changed from an early to a late, but during that pre redundancy period they had nothing to compare it with. I only realised what proper disruption or a long duty was was until I went LH cargoeing, then disruption becomes measured in days, sometimes weeks late coming home.

I would add to Rex that I think the current upswing is responsible for the industry postponing it's predjucide on turboprop time and only temporary. I don't think the upswing will last much longer personally. Bare in mind the terrible lack of UK opportunities in 2012-13 for those facing the push.

As said, it's changed now, so the company I remember most likely doesn't exist in the form/lifestyle I knew it, but hopefully some of the good stuff remains.

Wireless is right. That's pretty much everything I would have said too.

As soon as the industry can supply itself with jet-experienced pilots (and historically it has always had the random stipulation of minimum 60 tons, so no E-jet), Flybe guys will find it ridiculously difficult to get out.

I can only hope since the big panic sale of pilots in 2013/14, the idiot trainers who infected the Dash fleet were also thrown out. The majority were, as stated, good at what they did, but there was a hard core of notorious plonkers whose presence was continually tolerated.

When I left in 2013 there was certainly not the plethora of opportunities there are now. There were opportunities to go and get jet time but they involved a sacrifice, in my case going to the arse end of Europe and flying for peanuts. It paid off though and within 18 months I was back in the UK, Airbus rated with lots of time on type and it made everything worthwhile. When times change from the current recruitment "boon", no you're probably not going to walk into a well paid jet job in the UK but those days have gone forever anyway. It will involve looking elsewhere for opportunities but you're wrong to say that those opportunities simply won't exist for Dash drivers. It will probably involve a move out of your comfort zone, which is something that I got the impression many in the redundancy turmoil of early 2013 simply weren't willing to contemplate.

I can only echo, however, the sentiments regarding Flybe before the January announcement of three years ago. A simply wonderful place to work with opportunities for a great lifestyle. If the archangel Gabriel came down now and told me "Rex you can go back to Flybe with things exactly how they were but the company will be stable and profitable and it will never change but you must stay there until retirement" I would happily give up my long haul ambitions right now and go back. You can't put a price on being at home with a fantastic lifestyle and that's what Flybe offered for so many. People accepted the lower level of pay in order to fly their 500 hours a year and work with their friends. Sadly, as soon as the hatchet plan to retrench the company around the "superbases" of Manchester, Birmingham and Southampton reared its ugly head, the job changed out of all recognition. You had the guys who wanted to receive their lower remuneration to work at home for Flybe now scattered to places in the UK they never wanted to be and flying 900 hours a year on the dash.

2013 was a horrible turn of events and reality check for the people in the outlying bases (and even for the guys in the big bases) and the company will never be the same again. Ultimately I realise my post has given kind of conflicting opinions regarding going to Flybe regarding the career implications of the dash against the conditions at the company but it's best to have the full picture. If you're a young guy cutting your teeth in aviation there aren't many better aircraft to do it on than the dash at Flybe. Lots of visuals (unless they've banned them again) and plenty of opportunity to hand pole to your heart's content. It's not a long term proposition though and have a carefully constructed exit plan.

Maybe Rex. But I simply can't responsibly abvocate that turboprop predjudice is gone for good. I feel it's temporary which is why I responded to what you indicated. You mentioned moving out of your comfort zone. I was Embraer rated and still had to end up flying from the Arsenal end of no where, albeit on a wide body. But it nearly broke my home life. It maybe fine in principle just to say up sticks if/when/maybe. However in the job decision stage it is a consideration. Everyone's lives are different. If it does happen it's no good saying to your wife and children "sorry, should've been bus rated, we need to move to Ghana". It's real when it happens. Normally suddenly, as we all found. I heard this sentiment about guys not being willing to work overseas a lot, and it always was from the pilots without families. I don't have children myself and was mobile but it wasn't through choice.

I would rather be bus or 737 rated with options to stay flying within the UK than find myself again in that sudden station if that's where my wife and children's lives lay. I saw for many colleagues it wasn't a case of not willing to contemplate but "how can I" with young children in school and a family. I remember one strong man in tears in the crew room with his worry.

We're quick as pilots to assume loved ones follow our wandering paths. But having been flying, flying machines in various methods now for 20 years and having lost a lot along the way I can safely say the rest of our lives may not follow us.

And as an informed person making making a decision, if I knew my heart and family life lay firmly in the UK I wouldn't be so dismissive about the ramifications of simply "being unwilling", especially now as there's choices in UK flying employment.

Wireless you're right, for the people with family it was and is different (and very many of those had perfectly valid reasons to be unwilling) but my comments are more for the younger audience on here with no ties. I was one of those (well relatively young anyway) and was fortunate to be in that position as it turned out.

Turbo Prop Prejudice
 

Hi All,

The TP prejudice, sadly, is still there; or more accurately disappearing slowly as more and more people move through the ZFT system.

Many carriers twigged that the CAP 804 requirements for ZFT covered pretty much every TP aeroplane except a handful of sub 19 seaters. This was fantastic news for those who wanted an opportunity to leave TP carriers. Hence we find ourselves in the current (positive) pilot movement situation. Good for the top end, good for the middle and good for new starters.

What has become apparent is that there is ABSOLUTELY NO CONCEPT from those who have never worked with a Q400 of the capability it has. The Q400 was designed to operate in a jet environment at TP efficiency and it does it very well. More-or-less full glass cockpit, 285Kts TAS cruise, slippery little bugger, 235 down-wind => 210, 180Kts on base and 160 to 4d; it is a jet in all but name. I have flown jets that are easier to manage energy on.

The usual response when all this is explained: "...oh! Its not a Shed then?...". Yes. Thats right. MOST modern TP's are most certainly not Sheds (Shorts 360 for the youngsters).

These people with an awareness gap cannot be blamed for their lack of understanding. How many of us really understand the finer points of another carriers SOP's and/or types if they appear to be at the other end of the spectrum to our own?

What is encouraging is the response of training departments to the TP drivers "making the difficult transition to jet" (:ugh:). The recognition that a good apprenticeship has been served elsewhere on a challenging type is growing by the month.

The middle managers (and at least one very senior manager I know at a major charter outfit) are already aware that gap exists between reality and words written in a manual. Things are changing albeit a little slowly.

Apologies for the fairly lengthy post!

In summary, the TP "capability gap" is closing now with the advent of ZFT rules changing a couple of years ago. As more carriers move towards Skills Lists/Competencies (the updated stance on NOTECHs) this snobbery will disappear. I've certainly started to see this where I am now and it is VERY positive.

Pahahahahahaha

Me too. The BAe 146. But then there's not much that is draggier or more...flexible.

As a recent exFlybee I can only affirm what has been written in all of the above informative posts. Regarding the attitude of training departments towards ex Turbo prop guys the current situation is only positive in my experience, they seem to appreciate our basic flying skills and ability to think a little bit outside the box. Just passed my skills test on a 100t Boeing and no issues so far apart from trying to find the ALTSEL on numerous occasions in panic!

To summarise, training departments in the UK will continue to give Flybe/Eastern guys a shot for the foreseeable future... but the real test will be when things slow down, whether or not the HR departments will let them in the door when there are plenty of jet guys applying for the same jobs.

Sadly I don't think they will. This is nothing to do with skillsets. It's more to do with costs. Surely a trained person on the same type will be cheaper. Milk it now for when it all changes the same cycle will return.

Right now - if you can't find the crew having the same type ratings - then it goes to the second level down the food chain, TP guys and girls.

When that erodes - it will be instructors or cadets....hopefully :)

Bugspeed - well said! I've struggled many times in the past with those in recruitment posts who have "ABSOLUTELY NO CONCEPT" about the Q400.

Q400
 

Having flown Q400, E-Jet and now Airbus I have to say the Q400 was the most demanding to fly - which is precisely why the jet prejudice is a nonsense. I'm not sure that I'd class a Q400 as slippery though (except in comparison to an airborne wheelbarrow! ;-)

My advice to those still at Flybe or even thinking of joining is to think hard about what you want from the job of being a pilot. There's upsides and downsides to all flying jobs. I once chatted to a 777 Captain who had flown everything from instructing in Cessna's through turboprops at Eastern and then small jets before finally flying the heavies. He said to me that his job satisfaction had proved to be inversely proportional to his paycheck and he bloody hated sitting there for 11 hours at a time staring at a 4000 mile ocean in the middle of the night but was trapped by the salary.

If Flybe offered a 5/3 fixed roster pattern that would in my view make a big difference because it would dramatically improve lifestyle and people would be more inclined to tolerate the downsides like low pay and roster disruption. Ironically as they are so short of crew they're probably less likely to do this now than ever and yet it's precisely the kind of measure that could solve their staff attrition issues in the longer term.

I also think it will be interesting to see if Saad stays. Many suspect he's only in it for the money and his 3 year contract involved a huge bonus if he managed to significantly improve the share price 3 years after taking over. In fact the share price is (I think) lower than when he joined so he may decide to leave anyway which may leave the way open for a more charismatic leader with more flair, better people skills and the ability to re-energise the workforce. What Flybe needs is someone like Branson or Colin Marshall with a genuine passion for aviation and customer service, the intellect to innovate and the ability to create passion in his staff and a bit of theatre around the brand.

Sadly I suspect Saad is a bean counter who lacks flair. He intimidates his staff and I'm not sure if he really cares about his passengers. If you read the financial sites he doesn't seem to have impressed the city analysts or investors. He went around sacking and demoting (often capable and experienced) managers left right and center while spouting meaningless phrases he picked up on an MBA course. He sacked stacks of pilots only to find himself recruiting to replace them almost immediately, he grounded a fleet of jets for months and then realised (as an 'O' level economics student could have told him) that by doing that he was still paying all the leases but not earning any revenue from them to offset that so he put them back in the air again. He has opened and closed bases all over the place which led people to wonder if there was cohesion to the strategy. He shed and lost excellent staff who had a strong sense of loyalty and customer service ethic. Fundamentally his biggest failing is that he hasn't managed to take his staff, the city or perhaps even his customers with him quite the way one might have hoped.

Thankfully Flybe weathered the storm but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he decides to seek his fortune elsewhere.

^^^^^^^ Can only echo Desk Pilots post above. Having met the man on more than one occasion I was left completely underwhelmed by him both as a leader and a strategist.

90% of his decisions seem to be to scrap something and then re-introduce it 6 months to a year later under a different banner, with zero accountability or recognition of previous mistakes.

I don't think the leases work like that, desk plot and whitemonk. It's not a simple case of the aircraft cost a one off x amount to operate and then he realised it would pay to fly them, to think that is a little naive. There's a whole wrath of associated costs. The engines were owned by the Walker Trust so I'm led to believe and then leased back to Flybe, the airframes were a separate entity. Then factor in sky high fuel prices, and (according to the company) sky high crew and high fuel burns then those associated costs mount up if they fly. If they don't fly then the only thing you pay for is the airframe lease costs because Saad got rid of the other cost (crews). The engines aren't being used and no fuel is being burnt. But then came Project Blackbird. There was no way on this God's earth that these jets were going to be sold. You could see it right from the start. There's only 138 sold worldwide since the aircraft's inception. We possessed 14 by 2008 which at that time equated to 20% of the world's fleet of 195s. Up until we got rid of the first one we possessed 11% of the world's fleet so that tells you a story doesn't it, well it tells me that as beautiful as the aircraft is to fly, they are commercial dogs, nobody wants them, that's not my opinion, that's fact and couple that with a very, very high cost base, high leasing costs and high fuel costs, the 195s were never going to stay, or so we thought. As Project Blackbird was in full swing I think it became abundantly clear that nobody wanted the 195s. So now we're stuck with them, and the reason they're flying again is because we have done deals with airports to drive down the associated costs. Couple this with a much lower cost base and fuel that's 50% cheaper then all of a sudden they might just break even - just, which is obviously alot better than a loss. Let's face it, we were (& still are with handouts) flying these aircraft on domestic routes, mainly in the uk. Apart from a few trunk routes if airlines could make money flying jets over 100 seats on UK domestic routes then airlines would be doing it in abundance, but they're not, this tells you a story as well.

Your biggest problem is Ham Salad's love of purple. You now have a fleet of flying dildos, which wouldn't look out of place with Ann Summers written on the side instead :}

Considering our times, it might well be the best marketing strategy ever!
:E

Lovely comments Otto.

What's best integrated or modular?

Integrated for the quality of training, and the possibility of referrals and mentoring opportunities.

Back to Flybe. Historically I honestly believe Jersey European existed as a means to Legally "launder" money (purely metaphorically speaking) via expensive aircraft leases out to the offshore bases of the paper companies who owned most of the aircraft.

With a lot of the Q400s and the E195s this historical flaw is one of their big hurdles to recovery. The Republic Q400s are a good step, and the sooner they get out of the E195s and the expensive Q400s run out of lease and can be re-acquired on better terms the sooner their cost base will become manageable.

Ham Salad, certainly has one hand tied behind his back, as did Jim before him. LHR is a gon starter, as they costs are even more than at LGW, who drove Flybe out of the airport and very nearly out of business altogether....

Jack Walker was laundering money was he?

Pay rise
 

Do I hear Flybe pilots getting a pay rise and new roster agreement.

Jamest

The latest pay/scheduling offerings have been unanimously rejected by the members. Discussions are taking place with regards an improved offer.

Thanks 777

Good to see things are looking positive, but buying monarch would be a step too far.

Flybe boss primes airline for take-off

Now I might not be able to pass BA's verbal reasoning, but I think we can knock this one on the head right now can't we?

I have just seen this comment from RexBanner a few posts back:

Rex took the words right out of my mouth. I had five years at Flybe, left in the great cull of 2013, survived a couple of years in the sandpit and now fly a very big aeroplane for a very big airline. Of all of them, Flybe was by far and away the most enjoyable lifestyle and flying – and considering I now spend my flights choosing 1st class food and planning bunk time instead of saying ‘ALT SEL’, waiting for the aircraft to try and bite me and wondering when I’ll have time for a pee – that says a lot for how good it was. Small bases, going flying with your mates, wonderful camaraderie, banter and social life with the cabin crew, maybe 500hrs per year, no night flying – it was a flying club rather than a job. Put me back at NWI, LGW, NCL or INV and convince me my job was secure, and I’d be as happy as a pig in the proverbial.

Sadly, those days are long gone (along with many of the bases). Friends who are still there are just as poorly paid as before, but have lost most of the lifestyle compensations. Nine days off a month is do-able with short 2-sector days and standbys you can do from home, especially when they rarely call you. It’s not so much fun with 80hrs a month and relentless 4 and 6 sector days. The company used to boast about the great regional lifestyle it offered, but all those little bases with the club-house atmosphere are history.

To be fair, Flybe have got some of the fundamentals spot on. As others have mentioned, the training and safety culture is second to none, which helps to make it a great first job. However, commercially they have all too often been a shambles, stumbling from one crisis or poor strategic decision to the next.

For someone starting out, it’s a good place to get decent training and valuable experience. For a DEC with no mortgage who is running the clock down to retirement and can go part-time it can be a nice little hobby job. For everyone in between – particularly folks with kids and/or big mortgages – it never was much of a career airline, and is even less so these days.

Oh, and for what it’s worth, I’ve flown the Q400, 737 and 777, and the Dash is by some margin the trickiest one to fly. The Boeings are boring - but at least they have ovens. :ok: Pot Noodle anyone? :E

G SXTY,

That is one of the most balanced and accurate summaries of Exeter Airlines I've read for a long time.

Well done and thank you; I concur fully with your post!