Turboprop transition to jet?
 

Hi,


I´ve been looking around some post and i decided to open a new one.

I am actually flying TURBOPROP (below 10 TONNES) as a Captain around 5000 total time, 4000 PIC. And is absolutly imposible to find any JET company that accepts this type of profile. Any body in my situation? there is even an article talking on this issue on the balpa magazine. It seems to me incredible that big airlines prefer my copilots with around 400 hours than me with the experience that this type of flying (as you may know) represents.

All copilots that flown with me in the last years are already flying on jet, and i am even thinking in this ****ty line trainings, really it seems the only posible solution. Even the market is growing up and more pilots are needed, each time an airline looks for pilots they ask for jet time on a 20 t or more plane and EFIS.

Any help or comment will be highly apreciated.

:ok:

Why not go for heavy turboprop first?

Where have you been the last 10 years. The devaluing of TP time is old news. You should have jumped as an FO at the first chance of a jet and not hung around. Problem is your pigeon holed now. I am not even sure if the desert values your hours......

The last one i called to for ATR, they "offered me" a payment of 24k , 2 years of contract as F/O for less than 1800 €. Ok i don´t want the EMIRATES conditions, but at least some progression on my career. But I talked to capt in big turboprop and they are almost same situation.

It's a tough one. You might have to swallow your pride for a couple of years and take an FO position on a > 10t TP for 500-1000hrs as a bridging into jets. You will get LHS heavy TP fairly quickly with your TT I would think.

Or what about a move into Corporate?

the turboprop option is on my mind also..

On the corporate actually what I see is that they are demanding pilots type rated, if not they do not usually do open recruitment. Yes maybe a step backward will be the option. But if please anybody knows any company they accept this profile please tell me. thanks for answers. :ugh:

heavy glass turboprop time is a lot more viable than you may think... and a lot more attractive on the old CV.

Dash q400 pic time will help get you a fo job with a jet operator, but almost nowhere now will give you pic.
Even big (herc) pic time is viewed as practically valueless.
It's a bitter pill to swallow but you will need to take a financial step back in order to move forward.

Why do newbies go down the p2f route? To avoid situations like this, that's why!

Are you looking for a Captain of F/O position on jet?


I have 3500 hours TT ( 3000 hours heavy turboprop ATR72) rated on B737 and it is almost impossible to find a summer contract on B737.

Turboprop hours nowadays will get you nowhere, airlines prefer guys with 700 TT and 500 hours on type. :ugh:

The only solution is to have the "golden contact" that will make you get in….

Join Cathay pacific in Hong Kong as a S/O. Within 3-4 years you will be right seat in a wide body jet, get 2000 hours jet under your belt, plenty of options.
Cathay May not be the best payer/conditions, but there is career progression.

Funny old world. I'm a high time heavy jet jockey who would dearly love to go back to regional turboprops for my last few years, mostly to be based near to home but I cannot get a shred of interest even for "starter" FO positions.

It might seem terribly glamorous from your perspective but believe me, the clouds look the same out of a 747 windscreen as they do out of a Q400 or anything else. Plus you get to spend lots more time in your jet seat. Hours and hours bored silly.

Fancy a swap?

If you are thinking you will be offered a left seat of a jet with your <10 tonne turbo prop experience then I'm afraid you are mistaken. In my experience even those moving from small jet with one operator to larger jet in a new company find it tricky, let alone a small turbo prop.

If you look for positions as a First Officer then you should have a much better chance. There are operators recruiting non type rated FO's onto their jet fleets, depends on you and a large chunk of luck.

As others have mentioned, command time in anything that looks like a wheel chock from a widebody just doesn't cut it. Try your hardest to get into any seat in anything bigger, then move up at every chance. Been there, done that. Would still rather have people like you beside me than not. Good luck.

Sorry to hear ORICHETTI that all that hard work and experience is not being appreciated by the hypocritical "safety first" industry. :sad:

..and even that is no guarantee that they will not be replaced by the next batch of P2F candidates.

Plenty of 737/A320 pilots out there with 500 hours on type but who can't find much work.

Let's face it, as people above also said: the 'market' is completely screwed up and airlines prefer young, naive, inexperienced pilots, heavily into student debt from P4T and P2F, who will automatically ask "how high?" when crew control shouts "JUMP!"

These new FO's are no longer children of the magenta line, they are robots of the magenta line and anyone with even half a brain is quickly getting outsourced, or runs into a brick wall trying to move to a jet job.

Tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock.... :hmm:

The ONLY strategy is: talk to people wanting to become a pilot and warn them NOT to dive into a huge pool of debt that they most likely will never be able to pay off with the ever decreasing salaries and collective labour agreements. Stick to the cadet schemes and if that does not work out, tough luck, forget a job as a pilot in this lifetime. :(

Orichetti I feel sorry for you, but it would really tough or more.

in my previous airline (A320) I tried to help a friend by recommending him, so his CV was supposed to be on top (for F/o position, he even had hours on 320!), instead of that, they prefered to hire young cadets. I was angry at them. Plus the management asked us to recommend if we knew any f/o, and then they stab on your back.

Just to tell, you can imagine when your CV is not even considered ! :ugh:

No "Johnny F@rt Pants" not thinking in a jet captain, just an oportunity for a f/o on a jet, not more.

Yes really apreciate your comments. i will check the hong kong option and the bigger turboprop.


At least, as you well said, i do not debt anything, not like my F/O. Sometimes they even don´t have a meal to save money..

sad times for aviation. will see in the next 10 years.

At least you are a real pilot who knows how to fly and you have solid credentials. Don't give up, somewhere there is someone with enough brains to hire you over a 200 hour type rated inexperienced pilot.

"Funny old world. I'm a high time heavy jet jockey who would dearly love to go back to regional turboprops for my last few years, mostly to be based near to home but I cannot get a shred of interest even for "starter" FO positions.

It might seem terribly glamorous from your perspective but believe me, the clouds look the same out of a 747 windscreen as they do out of a Q400 or anything else. Plus you get to spend lots more time in your jet seat. Hours and hours bored silly."

Well said.

Flying for a living is just another job, all be it a good one, if you're not happy flying a TP then maybe you won't be happy flying a jet either.


Some of the happiest and most content pilots I have met have never stepped out of Ag or Rotary or Floaty's or Bush Flying or any of the multitude of specialist flying vocations that exist. Find a reasonable paying flying job in a place where you can be happy and enjoy your life, buy a motorcycle, go fishing, restore an old car, or whatever.


All the glamour flying is now with remote location bush flying not with airlines.


I took the career path of seeking diverse flying and good paying operators that respect your hard work and dedication to their industry. So far so good but only 30 years in so a bit more to go but it's looking rosy ahead.

I really enjoyed my turboprop red eye years and i still really enjoy my jet years..
Fatigue spoils the wake up sometimes but as soon as i click click i feel reborn again:E

Try to apply to airlines that have both turboprops and possibly have or will have jets in the short future...

With the deepest of respect this warrants, your comments seem to be made with the pithy abandon of someone whose never experienced those wonderful, 'glamorous' opportunities. Bush flying is romantic only so far as there are moments you're flying along at sunset, or dawn, and it's absolutely stunning. 99% of the time you're cramming a legal years worth of hours into a tourist season, working with no FTLs, in aircraft that are beaten up and need to work, humping bags, smiling, and getting bitten by tetse flies whilst trying to keep track of your last crumpled box of Coartem and not piss off some officious paper stamper, who's determined to make you regret historic colonialism. Occasionally you have a sun downer in the vicinity of some exotic wildlife, but you're more concerned about trying to charm some suitable entertainment for the evening.

Try running a car on $850 a month before you've paid rent, let alone restoring one. What did you have in mind, by the way? No doubt some soft top run around from the sixties, to go with those sunsets. If I had a dollar for every time some BA pilot was a passenger, asked to sit up front and then told me how he'd trade jobs with me in an instant, I'd no doubt be round yours borrowing your tools to restore my own money pit of a midlife crisis sportscar. People tend to think the brief snapshot they see is idyllic without considering basic things like, 'what's it like living for years on a substance wage constantly worried about whether you'll ever have a career?'

I don't think the OP resents the TP work, rather rues the distinct lack of opportunities available to experienced pilots to progress their careers and increase that dirty word, their money. Your condescension, I suspect, will not make that frustration less. Stiff upper lip or not. Most small TP jobs don't leave much left each month for the basics, let alone restoring sports cars. Perhaps the OP should try a motorbike. Ahh, but that requires disposable income too.

To the OP, network like crazy for corporate gigs. Most CPs I've met value PIC time, decision making skills, etc... Good luck; it can happen. :ok:

i am happy, but my plane is going to die in less than 5 years, and flying in summer with thunderstorms around at fl180 is not the most enjoyable time. cat 1, no a/P most times, bad manteinance.

Orichetti,

I am in your same boat (???) except that I am slightly luckier with the type, mine being ultra-popular. As a matter of fact I have come to the point where I am sought by operator that surf the web and read my profile in the likes of LinkeIn. However I am experiencing your same syndrome, stuck on type, n jet time and age (at least for the airlines) not on my side.

What can I suggest? Well, I'll second those who say network like nuts. That's how I got my first (cursed) job when I was just a FI with 500hrs of SEP. If it happened once then it may happen again. I keep promising myself next move will be upwards and not sideways but then reality kicks in. Corporate is probably the only way to go for me, not sure whether it applies to you as well but worth considering, IMHO. Airline flying is OK in a legacy or a well-structured LoCo but I wouldn't join ANYONE just to fly an A320. It has to be "survivable" financially too.

I'd rather not comment on those who take the "...P2F path to avoid this misery..." because it would drag this OT but it's really frustrating to read those words.

Best luck with you search :ok:

Jet time?

Load of rubbish that companies get excited about "jet time". A jet is a type of power plant, not an aircraft in spite of top gun thinking. Some get excited about wide body time.

A turbo fan is easier to operate than a turbo prop this day and age. Yes the older turbo jet engine had to be managed with a little more planning with regards to spool up etc. Yes the speeds are a little higher but relative. Think "time to station", as a priority. Speed is just a number.

To me, who has operated light, medium and heavy turbo jet powered aircraft, a turbo prop experienced person has done the apprenticeship and very employable, over a sausage factory graduate any day of the week. Air experience is what it is all about in my view. You can't gain experience sitting in a class room.

As for swept wing, not a problem.

You can teach a monkey to ride a bike but you may have trouble getting it to read road signs.

SM...

You are trying to knock down an oped door with me, mate. Unfortunately neither you or I are sitting in any hiring board so...

I had a shot at a CL605-job a while ago in LTN. The CP was a Yank and he said he would had literally kidnapped a guy like me from is SPA seat. Unfortunately the principal picked someone in Nice on the basis that...he was rated.

Game over

I sympathize with you. Sit tight and i'm sure you will get your chance. Boom and bust.

Journey Man,


"With the deepest of respect this warrants, your comments seem to be made with the pithy abandon of someone whose never experienced those wonderful, 'glamorous' opportunities."

Then all is not what it seems then Journey Man.


From Gliders to Ultralights to a mustering business to Ag to floats to international survey and now Aeromed. All of which has afforded me 3 investment properties a shed full of motorcycles and a rather nice fishing rod. But more importantly it has given me a contented disposition and happiness. It matters not a hoot that I may never monitor a shiny fat jets path along a predetermined route and I cannot help but feel if more pilots were a little more ambivalent toward a jet job then those companies might just need to lift their game regarding employee's.


However your last point regarding the OP is valid, my bliss won't help his transition, but it might just help to foster a frame of mind that accepts the present scenario with happiness. After all it maybe that he never transitions to a jet and spends the rest of his flying career in a TP. I hate to see pilots become miserable when upward progression stalls, nothing good comes from disgruntled or depressed pilots.


PS. I don't lend my tools.


Best of luck ORICHETTI

Flybe
 

OP i don't know where you are based but have you tried Flybe? We are crying out for crews as so many are departing to Jet2, BA etc and I'm flying close to 100 hrs in the coming months. Every person on my course was an experienced pilot and with some positive news expected on Tuesday it could be the right move for you. Expect 30K with no type rating costs as an initial FO and 2 - 3 years on a command with your experience depending on base in the current climate, not bad in this day and age

OP - DHK? Not sure of the current recruiting situation, but we have a long history of a great variety of entry quals including TPs of various sizes.

This is whats happen when you listen to these old school pilot..


Do instructing, then air taxi, then turbo prob, then jet..DONT PAY FOR TYPE RATING, I never did...Everyone agrees, yeah yeah, group hug, then this happens, you get stuck! things have changed since 1970

So now, it's OUR fault? If it was sarcastic, well I raise my hand and admit I did not get it at all. If not...oh, well...

If you are one of the ones which gives this old advise to new starters then yes..you people hate change, but aviation has changed so we must to. Air taxi, then turbo prob, then jet no longer works..

im not saying I prefer the new way..it was better before

I payed less than 35 k for my atpl, and never payed for a type rating. so for now i am happy of the way i did everything.
Really i began loading bags on a old md 80´s, checkin agent, dipatcher, and a lot more bad payed jobs on the airport..so i did all the career from the begining. maybe i need to change to a heavy TP and then finally a jet. i am sure the old way of wining experience is still valid.

Not in the UK it's not. You get stuck between the letters TP and jet. The system is geared up now so someone well financed and capable of passing paperwork can be placed as a temporary cheap to pay - does the same job- pilot. Sorry, "cadet" then after a few hard years they get standard wack. Albeit an eroded wack. Turboprop is almost a separate cottage industry career path with a definite ceiling in the UK

I disagree. In the UK things are moving once again and the system is un-clogging at a rate of knots as the retirement profile returns to normal.

Everyone is moving up a level. Loads of people in my old TP outfit have or are about to move on... Norwegian, Cathay, BA, Flybe, Wizz, Garuda... that's just off the top of my head.

But we all have >10t time and to go back to the OP, I think that is his immediate issue to moving on, not the market right at this moment imo.

Things are moving
 

I have to agree with Wodka, from what I can see the attitude seems to have changed to ' only cadets' to 'maybe a mix is better'. OP i went from flying a DHC6 onto the Q400 and have friends in the last year who have gone from the same up onto Saabs and Falcons, and the Falcon guys earn a hell of a lot more than your average Airline captains. Its not quite the meteoric rise of an Easyjet cadet but hell its about the journey not the destination, you have plenty of time ahead of you to fly jets, take the little steps first if you can. For those who have applied to Flybe but heard nothing I would urge you to follow it up as i have seen it work for others. Best of luck but be forewarned the handy days are over, expect to fly 800 hrs a year minimum and plenty of 6 sector days

I also started flying late 90's never paid for a rating, and trained modular. Having also been a TP captain I have sat next to cadets who bitch about pay and conditions. I love watching there faces when I point out they caused the problem, and as they have been willing to pay for everything to get ahead screw everyone else! The like of CTC are cancer in my opinion, it's a way of protecting jobs for the rich kids and keep the bean counters happy! It's so sad passionate aviators are effectively barred from the industry as the cannot afford a bull**** cadet course!

Be careful what you wish for, I enjoyed TP flying now a 320 driver, and in all honesty it's sooooooo boring! If I got the same salary to fly a Cessna I would quit today!

The whole thing is a disaster.
I went flying school - citation - 146 -757-787.
I was lucky, that sort of progression is hard to find.

Networking, got me, nowhere at all. I don't believe it's much use. Do airline HR people hang out in pubs waiting for desperate pilots to come chat them up.

I think the UK situation fell apart, when a lot of the small TP operators disappeared and conversely the larger charter firms amalgamated or changed their policies on giving 3 yr bonds to new guys.

I wish you luck in your search.

I'm a heavy prop, glass cockpit, first officer. First job after flying school and I've been doing this for 4 years now.

I know I don't have any reason to complain, good base (in my home country), good roster (2on 1 off), good money(three times what WizzAir offered me) and great colleages (all of them flown only props all their life).
But still, something is bothering me, there is no career advancement and for a mid 20's guy this is killing me.

I know that basicly every other job would be a step back in terms&conditions but I still send out CV's because I want to keep on "advancing" my career and the only way to advance right now is to get jet hours. I see all my old flying school buddies who flown boeings for 3 years getting jobs in Turkey and in the desert. Again; I know I shouldn't complain but I'm honest and say that jealousy is something we all have from time to time, even though I'm home a lot, have a great motorcycle to work on and still have money left for food.;)

It's just that there is no motivation, no growth in my career so I've been applying everywhere for over a year now.... and never got anything back, including companies like FlyBe who, apperently are begging pilots to join them.

If you talk to anybody and explain them; What do you think creates experience, a 5 hour flight staring at a screen or 5 landings and take off's in 5 hours in icing, turbulence and all the crap you can find around FL160? You can all guess what they will say.

Unfortunately the HR department doesn't see it this way. I don't see this changing and I don't blame them for thinking like this, it's just the way it is for the TP guys.

Corporate is the way to go some of you say, but is it not so that for every corporate jet vacancy they either want a type rating or jet hours? Networking is fast becoming a thing of the past, or maybe it is where I live.

I just keep on trucking and try to find fulfillment in other things. I know in the near future I won't get it from my career.