Quote:

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everybody whose 3year contract ended got a new permanent contract with OSM

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The “permanent” employment contract with Orient Ship Management is for a temporary and precarious indirect position with Norwegian (any notice period is with your employer agency, not Norwegian). Moreover, due to clauses indemnifying the agency, that “permanent” contract may not be so permanent – READ IT!

A shelf-stacker employed by a UK supermarket has more employment rights than a LGW based 787 or 737 pilot flying for Norwegian.

Here’s some of what the European Commission has to say in their 310-page report, Atypical Employment in Aviation, when describing novel and complex labor models, as used by the smiling rock ape:

"It has been noted that oftentimes the individuals concerned are no longer incentivized to organize themselves, as this may have detrimental repercussions upon their employment relationships in an already highly competitive environment"

The full report can be downloaded at (large file):

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/def..._15_0212_f.pdf

Have you read the report Violeta?

You see Bondi, when you want your opinion to be taken seriously, you should at least be precise in your argumentation. What you do however, is taking quotes out of context to undermine your point and just hope that nobody checks up on your "facts" because the report has 310 pages.

Your quote is on page 65 of the report in a paragraph about the situation of trade unions in the aviation sector specifically in germany. It has no connection to the situation in Norway or in Norwegian Airlines. If you want some background, i guess (a little bit of speculation on my part, i didnt write the report) what they refer to is the situation in germany that by german national law, pilots are specifically excluded from establishing a works council (according BetrVG) and the only option they have to establish one is to get their employer to recognize a union and establish a collective agreement, granting the pilots and theier work council the same rights as every other employee in germany already has. Of course, it all depends on the good will of the airline and there have been several cases in germany where the airline outright denied the pilots union recogniton and fired (or at least threatened to) the pilots trying to organize it. So yes, naturally these "...individuals concerned are no longer incentivized to organize themselves, as this may have detrimental repercussions upon their employment relationships in an already highly competitive environment". This is of course made worse by forms of non direct employment, however in germany, these types of employment are rare.

Also, while the report has financial support from the European Commission, it is neither from the EC nor is it their position. It is the work of four scientists from Ghent University and it is their position and opinion alone. The disclaimer is actually very specific on this, read it up in your document.

It is absolutely applicable to Norwegian. You might review post #656 of this thread:

Here is another extract from the EU Commission funded report, absolutely applicable to Norwegian:

“Civil aviation legislation does not take into account the prevalence of different forms of atypical employment and outsourcing in the rapidly changing civil aviation industry. Moreover, social legislation is not able to tackle the new phenomena, leaving room for elaborate subcontracting chains and elaborate social as well as fiscal engineering. As a result, the competition nowadays is a true race to the bottom, which affects fair competition and worker’s rights as well as raises important issues in the field of safety and liability.

It need be noted that lacking general transparency and oversight in the aviation sector by labor inspection authorities render it highly difficult to distinguish between the legal reality and the de facto conditions crew members are subjected to. Moreover, mindful of the transitional nature of contemporary airline employers and the establishment of bases and subsidiaries across and outside Europe, in conjunction with free movement provisions enshrined in the Treaties, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to verify compliance with European provisions of the employment conditions of crew members. The lacking oversight and subsequent enforcement not inconceivably – further prompt lower compliance and abuse of the lacunas in European aviation law”

Bottom line:

A shelf-stacker employed by a UK supermarket has more employment rights than a LGW based 787 or 737 pilot flying for Norwegian.

I urge all those applying to Orient Ship Management or Rishworth for an indirect, temporary position with Norwegian, to read the EU Commission funded report and a copy of the respective agency employment contract:

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/def..._15_0212_f.pdf

@Bunkbastard

Thanks.

See the latest interview:

https://skift.com/2016/10/06/norwegi...-afraid-of-us/

just curious, I read that for captain they require X amount of hours as widebody or narrow body in long haul ops? what they consider long haul in a narrow body? Flight of more than 6 hs in a 757/737/A320??

for what I understand is that they require 2500 hs as pic on efis aircraft and 1000 hs in long haul in wide body or narrow body but they dont require to be as PIC. I am correct?

Hi 7Q,

I know I'm not much help but there does seem to be a difference between the requirements of Rishworth (for the LGW-based crews) and those of OSM (for the FLL crew). The LGW requirements do not mention narrow body in longhaul operations. From the Rishworth brief:

Given this, I would suggest that no PIC on a wide body is required but, no doubt, I'm sure they would prefer that over narrow body experience.

I think only the agencies can answer your specific question (which I think is a good one), so why not give them a quick call/email and ask them directly.

rishworth changed the req

http://www.rishworthaviation.com/Opp...ype-rated.aspx

I was just curious, I dont have an easa licence to apply right now.

If and when the US bases eventuate, will the aircraft be N registered?

Any news on the new and better contract they are offering ?

Are there rosters available?

jonnyknoxsville,

here it is (just joking, but this is the level they should be at , with renumeration/roster etc. . . it is a long-haul operation isn't it ? )


https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/14...&cm=2016-11-02

Hi Jhonny,

I heard 5250 euro base pay and 1100 euro Per diem plus some for the phone. So around 6390 euro I guess for a FO position.

I have this information as the third link, from a NAX pilot.

It has yet to be confirmed officially...

Since Norwegian is recruiting for another bases than LGW how is it going to work? Are the pilots based in Barcelona, Amsterdam, Paris and Gatwick or they will be using some kind of Gateways in order to get pilots rostered from the various bases?

It will be interesting to see what the new pay proposal is for all positions, captain, cruise captain and first officer.

PlayStation,
The Chinese carriers pay more for obvious reasons - month on month off .
You wanna go touring that long ?

Meester proach,

I am not there , so cannot vouch for it, but there was a period that the time away from home was reported to be fairly considerable, & roster stability appalling, at NAI LH.

I don't know how it is now, but the guaranteed days off are nothing special.

Dear All,


After completion of the online tests, how long does it take to be replied?


Thank you.

Apparently, the promised Dreamyliner lifestyle is not as advertised and no one wants to post roster details.

Those daring to ask OSM or Rishworth to explain protracted recruitment procedures, provide more information on work patterns or other "employment" concerns, may trigger additional screening – the solicitation of “answer all your questions” a possible tactic to reveal those who might later reject the Kjos Kool-Aid. Be very wary of pledges from Norwegian’s inept managers seeking to masterfully hammer home a purported ‘open door’ policy.

The BA announced saturation of specific US routes may damage Norwegian. In many instances the superior BA all inclusive ticket price is less than Norwegian’s a la carte, high costs total. This, combined with the DOT refusing to budge on NA UK’s permit application following a recent EU-US meeting, makes for a not so smiling rock ape:-

“In response to a question from the European delegation regarding the timing of the DOT review process, the U.S. delegation did not provide any deadline or estimated date for further DOT action on the application, noting that it would be inappropriate to speculate on a pending regulatory matter”

With proposed variable bases and the associated multiple employment law jurisdictions, Norwegian’s circumvention employment model will become more novel and more complex. Don’t expect a DOT decision on the NAI or NA UK Foreign Air Carrier permits anytime soon.

Meanwhile, the Scandinavian reputation for quality of working life and trust continues to be willfully eroded.

I got 3 months worth of rosters from a friend of mine , about 12 months ago now , apart from the insulting contract , this was reason enough not to apply .

The contract is disgraceful. Then again, P2F exists so.........

According to Rishworth site the new package is a 5% pay increase and the availability of new bases. Is there anytinhg else?

So what are exactly this improve conditions? A part of pay for a new type rating...

I heard that improve conditions seems to be 300 Euros moré per month...😲

Two questions for somebody who might know.

What is the job prescription of a relief Captain in Norwegian? What do you do?

And how do you log these hours in your logbook?

Above 20000ft you may be the Captain, should the PIC has taken his rest on long haul flight.
So usualy you keep the right seat, in the event of depressurization, you will act as Commander.
At the sim you should received the appropriate training.

Incorrect WTON, I understand the captain on the norwegian flights is still in command, regardless of being in the crew rest or not. He is not off his duty and is the PIC the whole time, unlike airlines to the likes of Emirates. He just deligates the controls of the aircraft. So no logging of PIC time for the RCA! Would also be fraud if the RCA would log it as such as more people log PIC at the same time otherwise.
And the RCA position with Norwegian is more like that of a senior First Officer who can sit in the left seat. Just the name of the position includes the word captain. The actual role is not!

Waste of time
 

Guys consider them if u desperate but I found both NW and RW to be bunch of time wasters unprofessional and well u can find out yourself just go to one of their roadshows...

It is the same in Emirates, and as far as I know in every company in the world. Each flight has ONE designated commander, wether he is in the cockpit, taking a piss or in the bunk...

The US DOT has linked the Norwegian UK permit application to the “Ireland based” NAI application. The permits affect the long haul ambition of Kjos. Most recently the EU has appointed Giorgio Sacerdoti as its arbitrator in the ongoing NAI matter:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...ck-431867.html

“Under arbitration, the EU and US will each name an arbitrator, while a third arbitrator will be appointed by mutual consent”

A new DOT Secretary has yet to be appointed:

http://ttnews.com/articles/basetempl...-DOT-Secretary

Those supporting NAI appear worried the new administration of President elect Trump may decide to review the NAI application. Ireland South MEP, Deirdre Clune, has written to DOT Secretary Foxx asking that he “swiftly conclude this matter within the time frame of the current US political administration”:

http://www.irishcentral.com/business...-by-arbitrator

It may not have been prudent for EU Transport Commissioner, Violeta Bulc, to notify the DOT that not granting NAI a US permit could affect trade agreements. Given the rhetoric of President elect Trump, Bulc’s communication is likely to hinder rather than assist the NAI and NA UK applications.

The Irish Times published a letter from the Irish Airline Pilots’ Association President, Captain Evan Cullen, regarding Norwegian’s Irish venture, in which he states, “The objection is purely on the undermining of EU-US labor standards that the Norwegian proposal represents”:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/le...plan-1.2749410

In an interview with Kjos, Norway’s VG newspaper reported that; ”Norwegian boss is crystal clear that he is not at all interested in negotiating the pilots demands for connection to the parent NAS - This will eliminate our ability to finance the 240 planes. With such a model we would not have gotten the funding of the banks to operate”:

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/k...lt/a/23408996/

Article 17 of the EU-US Air Transport Agreement (Open Skies) does not permit an undermining of labor standards, labor rights and labor principles by the participating parties. This may include using novel and complex labor models to circumvent direct employment relationships. Particularly if doing so would provide an unfair competitive advantage over those participating parties fully complying with the Agreement.

This is a staggering admission.

One wonders what exactly it was that Kjos told the banks about the relationship between his employees and their airline?

:=

Norwegian slips and ugly treatment
 

Last Friday, 25th, a Norwegian 737 slipped off the hard surface at Umea, Sweden:

“The landing went well, but the aircraft came off the runway”:

http://www.vk.se/1869794/flygplan-gled-av-landningsbanan

I hope the crew is directly employed with trade union representation. In the past, agency crew without trade union representation were summarily terminated after an occurrence, but before any official investigation to determine cause (ref JFK).

In an unrelated incident:

“I was so angry I was shaking when I saw the ugly treatment dogs got”

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/hundeeier---jeg-ble-sa-sint-at-jeg-skalv-da-jeg-sa-den-stygge-behandlingen-hundene-fikk/65365847

I doubt the dogs’ owner will be voting Norwegian ‘best in show’ after their rough treatment.

I think that begs the question...


'Why is that Baggage Handler required to lift heavy objects above his head?'


Must be a Health and Safety violation by Management.
.

Got to take my hat off to you Bondi very few dogs will hang on to a bone for this long.

I have to agree with you A and C.

I have met the odd character in my long aviation career who wanted to conduct a life-long grudge about something or other but Direct Bondi definitely deserves some sort of special accolade.

Regardless of how badly I think I might have imagined I had been treated by persons or persons unknown, I would have given up a long time ago.

As a retired outsider he appears to me to be getting nowhere, for the airline seems to be getting bigger and bigger as the years go by regardless of his input.

Perhaps I could recommend him for the PYNWBG award?

(Picking Your Nose With Boxing Gloves)

JW411,

Quote:

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Regardless of how badly I think I might have imagined I had been treated by persons or persons unknown,

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Do try and make some sense man.

Apparently, you support Kjos and his labor model race to the bottom. Perhaps you could also recommend him for an award. I suggest the accolade;

Complete, unequivocal, Norwegian talent.

Although Bondi's campaign seems slightly crazed and is certainly tedious, perhaps he feels he is exacting some sort of retribution against an organisation which he clearly feels has screwed him. I can sympathise to a point but would suggest that, as he clearly failed to address his grievances while in Norwegian, he might be better served by putting it down to experience and moving on. Then again, perhaps he feels he really is making a difference with his contributions. If his aim is to tarnish the company and discourage others from joining, he might be more effective if he added some balance and came across a bit less 'rain man'.

“campaign” – not at all.
Objections and responses to ongoing reports relating to Norwegian’s abhorrent labor model. You may not be aware that others also object, including the six million members of the AFL-CIO federation of unions and; ALPA, IALPA, ECA, European Transport Workers Union ETF, Southwest Airlines Pilots Association SWAPA, Association of Flight Attendants AFA, the list goes on.

“crazed” – hardly.
Perhaps if posts were written unintelligibly and without supporting evidence in the form of factual reports, mostly with direct links to the source.

“tedious” – then read something else.

Conversely, I doubt you apply your criteria to those perpetually supporting the Kjos regime.

Norwegian is highly proficient at tarnishing themselves and discouraging applications without any assistance from me.

Balancing the scales of labor rights and labor principles, you will find at Norwegian it is firmly tipped against the crew member (read my posts).

The new DOT Secretary, Elaine Chao, is a former Secretary of Labor and former Deputy Administrator of the Maritime Administration. She will be familiar with 'flags of convenience' and may be sympathetic to union concerns regarding Norwegian's labor model:

http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/29/13777014/elaine-chao-transportation-secretary-trump-administration

After almost three years, Norwegian still does not have its US Permits. News from Washington would suggest it may be raining on Norwegian's application for some time:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/president-trump-and-us-aviation-a-likely-reversion-to-protectionism-312463

Direct Bondi is an admirable poster who can back up what he says. He's as negative about Norwegian as some here are positive.

I wouldn't fault someone who continues to be a thorn as such in Norwegian's side for as long as Norwegian keep their current tack regarding contracts, pay levels, etc.

All's fair in love and war, as one manager once said to me during a dispute.

Elaine Chao has never been sympathetic to the cause of labor. There is absolutely no reason to think she will start now.