An aspect I think is important is that if you're a passenger, you don't want a minimum wage pilot up front. You want a pro.

And if the pilots, especially in the right seat, are struggling and maybe even starving as they pay the dues of building log book and command time, and may be questioning whether its worth it, they may also be questioning the expenditure of time and conscientiousness that it takes to be competent. That's a danger.

Although I'm not at the very top of the heap, flying a domestic narrow body for a US major, I consider my job to be a plum worth protecting, and my compensation is fair for what I do. I protect that job by being as professional and astute as I can be every time I sit in the cockpit. Passengers may or may not perceive the reward of flying on an airplane with a crew that worked and sacrificed to get where they are, or be willing to pay a little extra for it, but I do, and am.

Benthere

How hard one worked and how much one sacrificed and how long one worked for are frankly stupid metrics.

We should be paid on how good we are.

The worst pilot is the one who had to work to get his licence. I'd rather fly with the guy who finds it easy.

Worked for more than 20 years in the business and finished as a B744 pilot. Went through one bankruptcy, and one restructuring. Totally fed up after this and decided to pull the handle. Not easy to do but did an MBA in London and moved into business.

Luckily I was able to move into a company through my network. The meritocracy system needs getting used to but in all honesty it is much better than the seniority system, which is totally outdated and very costly to all of us in the end.

Haven't looked back since and not missing the flying at all. But in all fairness the move is not easy and you need to have a viable plan how to approach this.

Aviation is ok when you are young and haven't got a family back home. But the industry is economically rotten to the core and will get worse. If you have a viable plan, pull the handle.

I think this thread can be summed up by saying we now have a generation of very tired pilot who is both physically and mentally unable to sustain 4-sector days more than 3-4 times per week (a phenomen brought about by the low cost sector). The airline industry, like most, wants maximum output from it's workforce but the specific demands are at odds with the basic nature of the aging human being.

Consider a typical office job where you have been in the same company for 10-15 years. You're likely to be in a senior role overseeing and managing a team of workers. You would be expected to be far less hands on than you were a decade ago. It's not the same for pilots, the expectation is that regardless of seniority and physical age you will need to perform the exact same duties you did when you started off, and according to the same frequency. This was OK in the halcyon days of 2 or 3 sector flying but not now.

The industry has no interest in addressing the issue of long term pilot career sustainability. It does not need to fear that it's senior workforce will be seeking a way out well before retirement age. The supply vs. demand situation is in their favour, hence why the low cost sector focusses almost exclusively on cadet pilot recruitment. The irony is that some of you who have come through this very system are now finding the career unsustainable. A younger, cheaper workforce will take care of everything whilst driving average salaries down. All this time, the senior pilot workforce will sit fat, dumb and happy ignoring the not-so-very-blatant ageism that has been going on now for nearly a decade.

If you are suggesting that a pilot >60 is operating at less than peak performance at the end of sector 4 on day 5 then there is a safety issue. I quote 60 as the common earlier retirement age. Since then the allowable age was raised to 65: the argument would have it that the safety issue is now more relevant. Now the age limit is removed and we'll see captain >65 stuck to their chairs. The only medical extra, I believe, is a stress ECG test. Has any consideration been given to your argument that an aged pilot is not always at optimum level? I doubt it. What is the effect of this age discrimination philosophy in other transport/medical/relevant industries?

Superpilot hits the nail on the head with the most damaging aspect of cadet rich recruitment into the Locos

Unfortunately the loco model needs big scale minimal cost operation to survive.

There are numerous ironies relating to the low cost operation. One of the ones hidden from view of those working to enter the industry as flightcrew with the aurlines is that the amount of bodies the quality operators require is slowly dwindling as an inverse function of the low cost expansions

Some bright young guy thinking of using the locos as a stepping stone (getting some jet hours) the compwtition to then move on to one of the higher quality jobs is getting more intense as time moves on

Another important irony is the increase in bonus and salary of certain areas of the airline at the same time as the subtle and steady decrease elsewhere.

Well, I was still doing 4 sector nights and sometimes 6 sector nights when I retired at age 65. It was not me that was falling asleep. It was the youngsters who simply could not hack it. I had one fall asleep between 6D and 500 feet at Stansted and another who managed to fall asleep halfway through the SID from Vienna AND HE WAS THE PILOT FLYING!!!!!!!

I'll have a bag of those please old man ;)

The hidden problem is that of the experienced pilot who has had multiple redundancies and as a result is a senior FO in his or her 50's. There is simply no recovery from this position as most UK airlines only consider cadets in their 20's and the larger operators arrogantly assume that you screwed up somewhere along the line.

This leaves little option than to look for employment outside of the industry whether you want to or not and is unique to aviation where career progression depends not on experience but only on date of joining or the willingness to pay for a rating and often being under 30 as well.

Sooner or later, this is going to be challenged. Too late for me though.

Rat

I mean they aren't with you all the time - in a modern open plan office you have the b****** on your back all the time every day - no nice 14 hour trips with just 2-4 colleagues there.............

OFDM's. Voyage report data. Fuel burns. ATD delays. Longer turnarounds. Too much fuel. Too many sick days. No discretion flights. No shiny shoes. I take your point, but it is more subtle than one imagines.

RAT

I'm inclined to agree. Sure they are not literally sat there but they sure as heck are on the phone the minute you bust anyone of this month's flight data gates or intervene in any of the company's beloved processes.......

It's certainly getting harder and harder to live the dream...........