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John Smith is right. I've read his post, nowhere do I see him advocating that his opinion is a fair or just outcome.
He is merely paraphrasing what the bean counters and HR have been saying for years. Everywhere I've worked, I have perceived a sense of envy and a latent desire to cut down the tall poppy by most of the back office staff. Many decades later, it's become the unpalatable truth about the race to the T&C bottom. We now fly almost crash proof aircraft, ATC has improved, systems have improved. De-skilling of the profession is happening before your very eyes. Shortly after deskilling of the job comes appropriately unskilled staff working for far lower wages. How far away do you think UAVs are? Other than the court of public opinion, what else is stopping them from being implemented? Sorry guys. I'm not gloating, I was lucky and had a good run. I doubt the current crop of 20 year old airline aspirants will have it as good. It's not fair, but that's the way it is. You have to face the future with eyes wide open. |
You guys might be right, even though it's supply and demand that will decide eventually..but yes the point is absolutely correct.
The simple fact is don't forget most of the pay we get, especially as captains, relates to CRIMINAL responsibility you are accountable for in case anything happens, one instance in a 40 years career is enough. So while I agree completely that this is the way we are going, I see little point in comparing ourselves to Cambridge university graduates, because even though they are way smarter that the average pilot, I haven't seen a literature graduate imprisoned for a mistake on the job yet. |
Lol, this is one of the worst documentaries I have seen.
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relates to CRIMINAL responsibility you are accountable for in case anything happens, depends on the personnality. I mean making a mistake (killing pax) is a big mistake but you don't go to prison like that... But making a fault (voluntary) is different...(if you fly and you're drunk, for sure you are 100% criminal). There is a difference between error and fault. One happens in any time and you will not be considered as criminal, the other means, you knew you were doing something wrong, so you'll be considered as a criminal. As a pilot, as long as you do your job by following procedures, there is no problem. If an accident happens you are not alone...(airline, management etc are checked, pilots do not write procedures after all neither the laws...). |
Originally Posted by AlexanderH
(Post 8809874)
Lol, this is one of the worst documentaries I have seen.
It was not made for pilots, we all know about this issue but for "Joe Blow/Jane Doe the public" who need to be aware about it. And with that I think it's doing its job. |
Pay to fly is not the main problem in this job. The big problem is salary.
In a couple of years you will see that standard captain salary on A320/B737 will be 4000€/month for 75 hours on avarage, this is the tendency on Vueling, Wizzair, Ryanair, Volotea and so on. So many young FOs are willing to accept a captain job in those horrible T&Cs. |
Pay to fly is not the main problem in this job. The big problem is salary. |
There is also a petition against P2F. Can you sign it?
https://secure.avaaz.org/fr/petition/p2f_must_stop/ Thanks |
Legality of P2F
Can someone with some knowledge of employment law comment on the legality of P2F in UK.
My understanding was that we had a minimum wage in UK. How then can a company charge for one of the crewmembers on an aircraft certified as minimum 2 crew? Surely they should be getting paid at least the minimum wage? I understand that some airlines may be certified to provide training to people not working for them, but does line-flying for payment come under this sort of training? If an airline is charging for line "training", surely then the pilots in command flying with these trainees should all be certified Line Training Captains. Is this the case? |
Wish I had the knowledge Wheelbarrow... My guess it will be usual aviation fiddle to show that you are somehow, or it will be exempt, or some other such nonsense. I do know that self employed and volunteer workers in the UK are not entitled to the minimum wage, so who knows !
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When I sat the ATPL many moons ago it WAS considered to be the equivelant of a Degree. Gawd knows what the level of knowledge is required now.
I am quite sure that there would be some very unhappy "Un paid Interns" that would have to remain so for 10- 15 years, to get the Opportunity to move to the LHS to become a "Real Pilot"......... It just aint gonna happen. :ugh: |
When I sat the ATPL many moons ago it WAS considered to be the equivalent of a Degree. There has long been a circulating myth about this idea, but in reality that is all it every was. I recall that many years ago (possibly Hamble as I cannot find a modern day reference,) there was a specific integrated course whereby the Open University provided a couple of "credits" towards a degree course if you successfully completed the programme. I seem to recall that had as much to do with the peripheral study as it did with the ATPL content. It certainly didn't provide an academic degree of any sort. Even today, similar quasi courses pop up from time to time whereby the ATPL training may provide an embedded element of a degree course, but I have never seen any correlation or suggestion of "equivalence" between the two, nor would I really expect to. |
At least one major flight training organisation in the UK used to market the integrated ATPL as "Equivalent to a 2 year BEng course". Rightly or wrongly I don't know but it doesn't matter cos who needs a degree anyway?
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Well if you follow this link:
Equivalence des titres aéronautiques (ATPL,CPL/IR, CPL) - Ministère du Développement durable You will see that the french CAA issues a certificate for a degree in exchange for a full atpl licence.... |
If you follow this link:
The Register of Regulated Qualifications - The Register You will see that neither the UK CAA nor anybody else in the UK does. |
Oh I have no doubt about that, nor the fact that it may well not be justified at all that the DGAC does it.
But it can still come in handy, especially for people looking at a professional reconversion, as it allows you to apply to a few more courses... |
yes, indeed.
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Oh I have no doubt about that, nor the fact that it may well not be justified at all that the DGAC does it. |
There has long been a circulating myth about this idea, but in reality that is all it every was. I recall that many years ago (possibly Hamble as I cannot find a modern day reference,) there was a specific integrated course whereby the Open University provided a couple of "credits" towards a degree course if you successfully completed the programme. I seem to recall that had as much to do with the peripheral study as it did with the ATPL content. It certainly didn't provide an academic degree of any sort. BSC DEGREE WITH HONOURS FOR AIRLINE PILOTS A BSc Degree with Honours in Professional Aviation Pilot Practice is now available in association with Middlesex University, CTC Wings and our Partner Airlines. A new generation of airline pilots will now be eligible* to fund their studies through the grant of UK government loan support which significantly lessens the financial burden of becoming an airline pilot. Completing your degree through the CTC Wings cadet route will provide you with the opportunity to complete a BSc Honours Degree whilst undergoing flying training. As you progress through the course you will be credited by Middlesex University for the work completed both academically and through your flying exercises and experience. The final part of the degree will be completed whilst working with one of our partner airlines. You can now apply via the UCAS website or direct to CTC Aviation. The minimum criteria and the processes are shown overleaf. *Terms and conditions apply - see Student Loans Company - Student Loans Company Course Tuition Fees (including loans, grants and other charges) For cadets who undertake the BSc(Hons) Professional Aviation Pilot Practice degree course, tuition fees are payable directly to Middlesex University for each academic year of the programme. The tuition fees for the 2013/14 academic year are £9,000 equating to a total of £27,000 for the three full time years of the programme at current rates. In addition to the tuition fees charged by Middlesex University, CTC will make operational and equipment charges of £74,300 to include aircraft and simulator hire, airport and CAA fees and pilot equipment. More information can be found at Student Loans Company - Student Loans Company |
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