£110k+ EZY MPL scheme
 

Is it really true that it's now costing £110k to join EZY?

Come on guys, this is a FTSE100 business.

PS - I don't recall the selling of army commissions 100+ years ago helped much with the quality but you'll know better.

easyJet Finance | CTC Wings

No it's not true. You could've googled it yourself. End of thread.

Quite an apt word you used there, business. Not charity. If you have no experience and want to join one of the most successful, secure, well paid airlines (yes it is) then you have to invest in yourself. 10 years ago it wasn't a proven product - people needed to be incentivised to invest their time and experience in the company - by way of joining bonuses. Now it's an extremely proven product which can deliver consistent, high quality training, a future and as good a security as any airline in the industry can.

For one of the most valuable companies in the history of the UK, where directors reward themselves with lottery sized share options/bonuses/salaries, it is completely disgraceful.

For anyone who might need the loan, with a 24 month repayment holiday, it looks a lot like you'd be making repayments before Easyjet were repaying the bond. This could make for some very lean times initially. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the timings don't look particularly kind in that regard.

Why do you think they are in the FTSE100? Because they're making money out of everybody - including the pilots!

How can they charge that much for a program supposedly designed to lower training costs!!?
Are EJ still taking students from the wings cadet pool or simply only MPL students?

A quick look at the compensation for those at the top of Easy:

The CEO McCall had a total compensation in 2011 of £1.55m. In 2013 her compensation was £6.45m. Her salary was £655k, but her bonus was £1.153m. The remainder paid in shares. She currently holds £4.95m in shares.

The CFO, Chris Kennedy, had a total compensation of £681k in 2011. In 2013 he took £3.7m from the business. His current share holding in Easy is £2.41m

It certainly isn't a charity.

Who is making the money on this though? Easyjet or Captains Taking Cash (CTC)? I'll bet the aforementioned Captains make Carolyn look skint.

CTC now has its private equity backers Inflexion to satisfy and they want to make 30%+ returns per annum on their money. This deal should help.

Nevertheless, this is a staggering cost, which does not appear to be condemned by BALPA or EZY training captains.

OK, devils advocate but I appreciate it is offset on the lower entry salary but £69k off that is paid back, right - making cost £50k inc. "type rating" equivalent?

A mucker of mine who's a Training Captain at Easy has been grumbling about these schemes for a while now. He feels like he's flying single pilot alot of the time due to the throughput of inexperienced cadets.

Love to know where they got the money though!!!! £110,000 plus cost of living and extras, that's huge!

WBF
Those four sector earlies must be quite tiring? Are you sure forty years of that is sustainable?:eek:
.
I imagine the customers would rather not know! But then Easy have to replace all those abandoning ship somehow I guess??
Look on the bright side. At least they just have to have rich parents to get in, and stump up the dosh. Rather than answer any of those pesky BA questions!

Ha ha 4468, touché.

I can't argue that the price is absolutely absurd. To quote a wise BA captain, 'horses for courses'. It wouldn't be my course.

Yet does that logic apply to any other industry?

Quite frankly, the scheme is a disgrace. The vastly inflated price is one issue, but the main one is the lack of a loan guarantee a la BA's FPP. No loan guarantee means only the richest or those stupid enough to gamble their (parents) house can apply. How's that for social mobility? EZY could make the scheme infintely better easily, all it would take is a simple guarantee so all cadets could get a loan.

Seems to hbe going up in price by £5k a year. Still there will be no shortage of people with the cash, even during the worst of the recession there was never a problem getting them to sign up. if I had paid £110k for this job, I'd be wanting a refund!

You do realise that the Dutch who go through EPST (but actually train with Oxford) pay nearly 200,000 €, right?

And if nobody pays... What then?

Quick thought experiment.

If nobody else paid that amount of money, then how would they get their pilots? Same for any airline. If people stopped paying to work, then the airlines would need to start recruiting people and paying for those people's training. Think about it.

ALL THE DELUDED PAY TO TRAIN MPL LOT ARE PLAYING INTO THEIR HANDS!

If you all stuck together, got yourselves the minimum licences required for the job, THEN STOPPED THERE, it would be up to the airlines to fund your TR, put you on a CRM/MCC/JOC or whatever other crap they call it this week (which would probably dry up and be done away with, once no flight schools were making money taking an extra £1-2000 off all pilots) and train you in-house to their standards while picking up the tab.

Even better would be to stop paying for everything post-PPL. Now tell me why that wouldn't work?


Contrast this with train driving, a job with similar responsibilities to an airline pilot. Fair play it's not flying, but hear me out. It pays a decent wage once trained (circa £35k+ initially with most UK companies, rising to £50k+), and hear this: YOU ARE PAID WHILE TRAINING. So the rail company pays YOU a salary (around £18-22k), trains you up at cost to them, then employs you with (still listening?!) very agreeable terms and conditions. There is a fairly rigorous selection process, and a small percentage of those who apply off the street make it all the way, but that's how it is. Plus, at the end of it all they get a driver who met all the necessary criteria on their own merit (sadly some people aren't up to it) and has been trained by the company since day one.

In the airline world, you have a stupid system where people keep paying to tick all the boxes and add the ratings, try to make themselves more "employable" by paying for further courses etc and trying to get one over their contemporaries to apply for few jobs where supply far outweighs demand. Buying hours on type and all kinds of nonsense. Also, there is a widespread cancer of people not actually having the basic flying skill, or experience built hard-wired knowledge that comes from working their way up the ladder from stick and rudder flying onto more advanced aircraft with a lot more automation (but that still fly like a real plane if you kick it all out) but have little in the way of manual handling skill, and who aren't encouraged to develop more manual flying skills in the normal line of work.

The industry is knackered, with no immediate sign of improvement, especially here in Europe, and I for one am happy scratching a living flying spamcans and have lost any sort of aspirations I had as a kid towards being an airline pilot. Hopefully more people will see the light and stop sucking up the FTO propaganda and paying thousands, and the boot will be on the other foot and airlines will lose their power over the masses and start having to offer training to prospective employees, and pay them a decent salary to attract the right calibre of pilot.

We know there is no stopping it. No matter how many people try the if everyone stuck together scenario, there will always be the rouges. With CAA and CTC marketing skills the rot will never stop. Anyhow it doesn't differ to much to people going to a third rate UK university paying 9k a year to get some airy fairy degree. Yes it's a third of the cost but perhaps you could say there's more chance of they will end up will les reward for their capital.

My worry is will these new cadets have jobs for the whole of their 40 year career. (Maybe a bit of thread drift) but how likely is it within the next 40 years UAV commercial jets will be common. If not UAV's certainly single pilot flight decks even if remotely monitored. We talk of airline overcapacity, I predict in years to come there will be world wide pilot over capacity. We need to face the fact we're going the way of the car plant workers.

I don't buy the CAT UAV angle - as professional pilots we fly a little bit but spend most of our time making operational safety and commercial decisions which are frequently nuanced. A car plant is a controlled environment - the big blue sky is anything but.

interviewer,

"what can you offer the Company?"

interviewee,

"£109,000"

interviewer,

"when can you start?"

Bradley Hardacre

I couldn't agree more. What else does an employer need to ask? Certainly little need for any aptitude tests if training is entirely at the risk of the trainee!!!:rolleyes:

Endofan Industry

I'm genuinely interested in your post. It's a side of this business I wasn't previously aware of. What is the stepped command payscale, and what attitude do these 'unpalatable individuals' bring with them?

Many thanks.

I was unsurprised to find that. Given the attitude and reputation of their output :mad:

The price is absolutely outrageous, but playing devil's advocate let's look at it from a longer term point of view:

They get an A320 type rating, which gives them a much better chance of earning a living than many other TRs AND it puts them right at the front of the queue when, let's say, BA start recruiting. Whereas the likes of me in my turboprop get left to the end when employers have ran out of type rated guys. Is it really that surprising that they want to buy their way up the queue? I'm sure many people on here would do exactly the same thing if they were making these decisions again.

£120k.....
 

Now let's get this right. It's not just Easy that take advantage of this abomination of employing cheap labour.
Look what's happend at Monarch! (30% reduction in pay for all)
BA / IAG, Review of S/H!
Virgin, consideration of MPL pilots for L/H,
Not to mention the dreaded MOL Army.
Now what is the pilot population doing about it? (sweet F/A)
O yes let's blame BALPA!
Well guess what!! We are BALPA. All of us who pay our 1%.

Stating the obvious;
The economics are simple. The cost of flying families to sunnier climes costs more than £19 a seat. So Mr brilliant Bean counter, sez, I know let's shift the cost to the pointy end, that way our profits are secured. And then pay an FO flumpence as he should be grateful for a job.
The only reason Train Drivers have kept their T/C's are they are organised, and prepared to stand up to any threats from their employers.

Why shouldn't the flying public know that the guy/gal in the RHS is paying for the privilege of being a pilot? And that he/she has a dept of £100k+, and has to come to work fatigued, feeling unwell to furnish his/her dept.
Spleen vented.

Bang on post Portside.

Doctors pay for a medical degree...
Lawyers pay for a law degree...
Getting a pilot's degree (if you will) requires much more high tech (expensive) kit that a musty lecture theatre and a professor or two.

This is no longer the '60s when firms were falling over themselves to offer you a job. It's supply and demand and it's a tough world out there for the late teens / early twenty-somethings.

vrb03kt mentioned the devil's advocate. Timely and appropriate, for what we now need for clarity and enlightenment is another long post from the venerable yet completely impartial (no vested interest or agenda) BEELZEBUB to explain why this ab initio scam makes perfect sense, is the best way of doing business and is intrinsically correct.

Perhaps cash is no substitute for competency - which is derived through experience. Be nice if said mucker along with said mucker's like minded mates were to speak up and put their concerns and observations into the public spotlight.

Are you joking? Firstly this would take collaboration on a gigantic scale. Down to the last wannabe pilot. In practice, of course, totally impossible.

But even if you could get everyone in the whole bloody country to agree to put their lives on hold until airlines offer more, you would also need to agree a level at which the pilots all stop boycotting airlines. What if some think that airlines paying for CPL/IR is enough, while you're holding out for paid TR/better T&Cs/lifestyle? Oops, system breaks down.

And then if by some miracle EVERYBODY agreed to the exact same goals, and NOBODY gave in for anything less, as soon as those goals were reached there'd be a stampede for the few jobs that existed. And what does huge supply and low demand create? Wheee back to the start again. :D


The rest of your drivel post really didn't have enough meat in it to even bother engaging.

Endofan industry, you say you 'work with' - are you a captain for easyJet or an FO?

It's interesting to note that in the States, where they have now brought in the 1500 hours requirement for commercial ops, that a lot of young people are turning their backs on the industry as they don't fancy the prospect of a massive financial outlay for little return...
And lo and behold now, a few airlines are offering signing bonuses to try and get people in, because those who are qualified are turning down the offer of a crap, low paid lifestyle.

Let's see if I can do this bit without drivelling again... It's not so much the money (having enough of it to pay) that grates me, or makes me jealous, but how people are so willing to pay through the nose, to be a slave for an airline and play into the hands of airlines and the training providers (who work hand in hand) who then knack the T&Cs across the board as they wish because there is always a ready supply of the next bunch of idiots wanting to sell their souls and rubbish the system even more.

None of these wide-eyed kids see any of this, as their exposure to it all is only watching pilots in their uniforms at the airport when they go on their holidays, drooling over the advertising pictures of an airliner flightdeck with an alluring view in the various pilot magazines, reading crap on this website (other websites are available) and FALLING FOR THE GLOSSY BS ADVERTISING of the likes of CTC/OAT etc. Get down your local flying club, talk to proper pilots (there will be a few current/ex-airlines, not just flying for fun PPLers) who fly for a living who aren't trying to sell you something, and hopefully you'll rethink it all and get a better idea what is involved. Don't get indoctrinated and think the only way to become a pilot is to part with vast sums of cash.

Sapperkenno, that's a lovely sentiment but try telling that to the people who "fell for the glossy BS" five years or so ago and are now only a couple of years away from a command. I think it will fall on deaf ears.

I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm simply saying that it is how it is. Feel free to waste time down at your local flying club if you wish, that's not where a career in aviation lies these days.

Sapperkenno,

Nice post, pretty much hits the nail on the head but, sadly, won't change anything.

Those wannabees who proliferate through this system will just view those refusing to be drawn in as one less obstacle in the way to them getting their RHS place. If they have the opportunity to pay, be it through bank of Mum & Dad or dreadful loans from sharking banks, then they will take the course as the 'foot in the door'. Unfortunately it takes a few years of hard graft on the line for them to realise that their actions have detrimental effects on their future remuneration.


They have, many times to the airlines training managers and the safety council but, as they are running a pretty heavy revenue stream, their concerns fall on deaf ears. Remember, in this industry as in the military, the QRH and change are generally written in blood.


Checked for typo's, missed letters and inappropriately spaced words on an Android phone from the beach in St Lucia after 1 sector! :};);););)

I like to listen. I have learned a great deal from listening carefully. Most people never listen.

- Ernest Hemingway

WHYEYEMAN said

'Doctors pay for a medical degree...
Lawyers pay for a law degree... '

I agree:
Doctors pay for their medical degree; Lawyers pay for their law degree, why shouldn't pilots pay for their flying licence? Why are some professions expected to pay for their own qualifications? I would assume it is because their ultimate remuneration is much higher. If anyone is going to have their training paid for surely it should be doctors who benefit the community to a greater degree.

Doctors and lawyers need to have far higher educational qualifications to get into their profession and their training is much longer; 7 years for a doctor as opposed to maximum 2 years for a pilot.
Once qualifiied and employed a junior doctor earns mid 20K whereas a SO earns 40K+.
Yes airline pilots hours can be unsociable and tiring but so are doctors.
So why should pilots be any different?

I think the TR should be paid for by the airline but as for the basic qualification paying for yourself is one way into the profession. If you can get an airline to sponsor you great, if not and you can pay, go for it. The rewards if you really want to fly far outweigh the difficulties.

Many of the newbies are attracted to airline flying for the glamour but has that not always been the case?
In flying, medicine and law most benefits come later in ones career. The difference in the professions is that medicine and law have a much more hierarchical structure whereas in most airlines it is much flatter.

Can a doctor or lawyer expect to earn in excess of 120K within 5 years of qualifiying?

The world is changing and so is the profession. If you want to be an airline pilot this is the way it's going to be from now on and none of us can change it whether we are experienced long time trainers or wannabees; there is no point blaming anyone. The ones I feel sorry for are those trying to work their way up the business through instruction, air taxi and the regionals who now find themselves excluded from the opportunities to progress.

Stiglet, medical school neither costs £110k nor takes 7 years. More like £45k in England and Wales (far better deal north of the border, and with bursaries in England and Wales, the figure can be lower, too) and 5 years as standard. Nobody needs to remortgage a house to go to medschool, though. Still, take your point about the more obvious benefits to the community in regard to potentially publicly funding that sort of endeavour. Admittedly, I think the Germans have got it right when it comes to university funding, but I've already gone off on enough of a tangent... :}

Just a note to add that speaking as someone who flies with these "wide-eyed, gullible, spoiled, (insert derogatory adjective of choice)" CTC pilots, they are almost without exception a pleasure to fly with and very competent. When I say almost without exception, I can't remember the last time I had a tedious day out with one.

Inexperienced, yes. But thats why I'm there.

Wirbelsturm, well you're missing a beautiful autumn's day in the south of England and personally I feel sorry for you. :E

Ah, that old 'hand grenade' again. It's been around the block so many times it's just not worth the effort replying. :}

Feel free to. :-)

I would agree, they are very, very good. Keen, attentive, very well versed in the technical aspects of the operation. The applicants and the product are not the problem it's the situation behind them that is. Make the application criteria more difficult as the US has and the situation will change.

I won't ask what you were doing on the beach in St Lucia at 2am. :D