In Ryanair, anyone opting for Line Training Captain /TRE etc certainly paid own transport to training location, & own hotel. I imagine that the "cost" of upgrade to Capt (thinking particularly Sim ) is probably borne by the Candidate. I joined as a Capt so don't know 1st hand, but would be shocked if the "promotion" bore any cost to the company.

Regretably, I think that the day you dread to speak of has already arrived, & the cream on the cake is that a "new" Capt in FR, will in fact earn no more than he had as an FO on an "old Brookfield Contract", he has merely purchased a more effective "get out of jail card". :D

Thanks, I didn't realise things had sunk to that level yet. I still enjoy the job but I hate the industry. Just working on a plan to get out early, while I still have my health, family etc. I really pity those starting out now and hope that people think twice before paying to fly.

You're safe then. A month of no wages, 10 nights in a hotel at own expense. No guarantee of a job at the end of it. It's costly for someone.

Piece of ":mad:", nicer to be your own man on the day though, & better on the CV. . . see it for what it is, & GTFOOT ? ("get the flip out of there" ) :D

Threads like this are important to provide a reality check to those with designs of a career in this industry.

Those with an interest in a career as a pilot need an accurate view of the situation with securing work within the industry. This is one of the very few sources of information from all sources. And this source has no financial gain to be had from the potential trainee/cadet.

Alternatively you could just listen to the sales patter from someone who has thousands of reasons to tell you one side of the story......

Captplaystation, Truckflyer does not need a lottery win. He claims to have an earning potential of nearly half a million a year (12 x £40k) from his personal business. The simple question remains unanswered - why would someone continue in a career they so nakedly hate when they have such a good source of income from elsewhere?

In another thread he referred to today's pilots as small-penised, daddy's boy zombies (did I miss anything TF?) so I suspect the real answer is Troll. And a rather verbose one at that.

AF; not a troll, and you need to improve your reading skills!

Not 12 x 40 every month, was the peak month 40k, however what does that help? I have no time to enjoy it, getting holiday that conforms with family and my job, is close to impossible!

But it's true, I don't need the lottery, however I work damn hard and have had to sacrifice a lot, and it's clear the flying career can not sustain family life alone, and that is a questionable worry,I have very little debts due to flying, compared to many others, now a loan of £16K.

Not that other months is any of your business, but they would just be between 10 - 20k, if I was focused on it and not flying away all the time.

Regarding the other comment, you have taken ONE sentence out of its context, which is cheap shot, and nearly sounds like a Daily Mail journalist!

I don't hate the job, I dislike the attitude of the industry towards pilots, maybe you AF is the exception or you simply don't care if you get all rolled over and abused, that's your choice.

From responses to the thread, there just a minority of the stooges, and some might have invested interest to maintain the illusion of this career.

As in all walks of life, it depends on how much we value ourselves, obviously not all have equally high regard of themselves, and thereby you get what you think you deserve!

However as soon as the penis factor, look at me in this big jet syndrome wears off, other things like life quality starts to take more importance, unless of course you are one of those who ends up marrying mrs Airbus or Boeing, and abandon wife and children, or what we call family life.

No troll, stopped with that long time ago, as I discovered that was not very progressive or positive.

Don't hate the job, but pilots, not maybe me, but pilots in general deserve better conditions, however it is actually just getting worse and worse. Don't shoot the messenger, and a few regular posters here try to thread the middle way, which is neither one thing or the other.

This is a fact, that most of us know.

I try to tell it as it really is, like it or not, reality kicks in when you sit constantly thousands of miles away from what really matters in life, and you watch the clock goes tick tock, tick tock!

And you AF, don't have a clue what this is about! You are probably one of those Oxford kids, who had mummy and daddy help you with flight training, and you did it at the right time to get in!

I'm a little puzzled about the use of the word "industry." It is being bandied about here as if the reason manufacturers build planes, airlines sell tickets and passengers fly is to provide pilots with jobs. I think a bit of a rethink is required in order to find the correct perspective. It starts with the passenger. Terms and conditions are NOT in a terminal decline - improvements are incremental and hard won by sober negotiation between employees/unions and management, not by diatribe on anonymous fora. Yes there are airlines where things are less rosy or more rosy but overall it is not a bad JOB, there are good companies out there if you know what you want and are patient and determined enough to get into them. Like most JOBS there are compromises to be made and this is where research comes in before you commit to joining the profession. If you don't like the compromises/benefit balance of the JOB then I am quite sure there will be some other profession which tickles your fancy. In spite of the various compromises the vast majority of my colleagues who I fly with would not do anything else.

truckflyer = TROLL!
 

Truckflyer, man up, shut up or go do something else!

5 pages of pathetic, childish whining and like others...lost the will to live through most of your 'War and Peace' posts!

I've been around UK airlines for over 25 years and have had ups and downs like anyone else. I have weeks were I struggle to take it seriously; I meet management and wonder how on earth someone thought you'd be right for that post; i've met gobby, cocky cadets and low-houred pilots, been genuinely shocked at some of the tosh that comes from these kids and have serious concerns about the next generation; would I recommend it to someone? Probably not! And I pity those who have entered this job now or in the last few years...but, I love what I do, I work hard to do it 'right' and to a high standard and I won't be doing anything else...

It is what it is! It's not going to improve over night...live with it, adjust...or simply don't do it if it's making you that un-happy or you can't justify it. Fighting it and moaning is...well, just making you the person you are on here! Because, and I probably speak for a few, folk probably really don't want to work with you anyway!

The Unions (pilots) need to toughen up and fight for their T&C's, fight to have pay to fly First Officer positions banned in their company, fight to have a proper scheduling agreement etc. Only then will things start to improve. I wonder how bad things will get first or if that will ever happen. We are all lead to believe that we should just be grateful to have jobs.

Because that's the sad reality??

Truth is, there are too many pilots, too many aircraft and too many flights which are not making a profit.

Wake up!...look at any airlines' investment, see how poor their return on capital is, then ask yourself...

"Would I risk all those millions, when the money would be safer in some Merchant Bank and make a better return"

It's obviously escaped a lot of peoples' attention that most airlines are LOOSING MONEY....they are paying a subsidy to the shiny jet, the Pax and YOU, the crew....they do this in the hope that things will improve and they'll actually make a decent return...but, the longer they run at a loss, the longer it's going to take to recoup that loss , before a profit emerges

Many don't make it!...short memories here? bankrupt airlines with unloved, unwanted aircraft which rapidly deteriorate and depreciate to scrap value.

Yes, the odd operator does make a good profit (all together, now.... RYR !)

but they have been ruthless exploiters of the market place, to get there, keep there and be in good position to cash in when things get better.

All you whingers who think the Aviation industry owes you a living, .....easy solution....club together and buy an airline out of bankruptcy....you'll get an incredible bargain at someone -else's expense, then you can cash in as owners.

I agree with some coments above.

Truckflyer, why don't you quit flying as career ?
That's a real question Im asking you, because personnally I did it. Or maybe you can't for the moment ? sorry if it's the case...
I have a business now too, and am happier. And I fly of course on weekends (more than before).
I entered the industry a few years ago, and fortunately I was aware enough, and I have seen how the bad joke it was and how it will be...

The T&C will always decline for sure. In a few years, say good bye to Europeans carriers and say hello to Emirates, etc... working as slaves. No thanks.
I still keep my licence though and take news from here, we never know, and if Air France will hire again one day I will applicate but I think the company is sinking very slowly like the Titanic...here it's very bad.
To resume it's simple : if you can't do anything or change anything, then leave it. :) Chose the life that you want.
It's easier to stay in a ****ty stuation because we know it than moving on. To move on, it requires courage, cause human being is always worried about the unknown.
Now, if I would recommend this career in 2014 ? no way. It's not a career. It's gipsy lifestyle in a lottery game. You can not climb the ladder with your hardwork only, you need luck and alot.
If people look for a real career where your work is rewarded and if you want to have a minimum control of your career path, then do something else.
Good luck.

Very silly post.
Perhaps pilots should work for nothing - the airlines can't afford the drivers of their multi million dollar money makers!
Fuel is pretty expensive too. Maybe they should get that free also.
And maintenance.

Are you for real?

It's all part of the cost of doing business matey. There's no shortage of poor little rich guys wanting to start airlines. Have you noticed the manufacturers order books are full?
Perhaps they too fall foul of the glamour and 'prestige' of owning an airline. They should think twice before getting into a business they can't make money at.
Just like the foolish drivers should.

I'd sooner see some balance and if that meant fewer companies that have reasonable T&Cs then so be it. Rather that than pay to fly schemes and this continuous race to the bottom.

Sure, that would mean more competition for less jobs but at least they would be real jobs worth having, rather than what we have now, at least for new pilots. For example, type ratings provided in exchange for a bond, a fixed base, a salary, a reasonable roster etc. The selection process could then include other things than the person's ability to borrow vast sums of money. I think that would improve safety.

If the legislators could somehow ban pay to fly schemes then at least it would be a level playing field for all the operators and they would then have to find other ways to save or make money. It ain't going to happen though.

I have seen many very good pilots miss out on a start yet some very dubious individuals buy their way into airline flying. Training these guys has clearly shown me that they are not the best people for the job as far as safety and efficiency is concerned.

cockney steve :

"most airlines are LOOSING MONEY!"

What a complete nonsense statement, do you really believe that?

What incredible and absolute BS!

On the contrary, the airlines actively try to scam governments, employees, by social dumping. Not paying the applicable taxes for their employees, social benefits etc., they looking for every legal and illegal trick in the book, and the only reason they are getting away with it, is incompetence in to many public offices.
However awareness will eventually change this in the future.

If the airline is not sustainable by paying a decent wage and giving decent T & C's in line with the job that is being done, than I am sorry to say, that airline does NOT deserve to survive.

This is simple business, first balance the books, than see how much profit you can make, than see how much you can slim down on the expenses side to get the most possible profit.

Why is Southwest not having such issues? They were founders of LoCo's?

I subscribe to the view too, that rather have fewer airlines, but that provide decent T & C's, than have loads of companies, not able to survive if they pay all what they legally should do.

The question you must ask yourself, how much does the crew salary represent on an average ticket price?

Say if you as an FO made 5000 Euros a month, before tax, this would per year be 60.000 Euros, which imho is a fair pay for an FO.
Add such extra expenses that this employee will cost the company such as Sims, hotel, extras, let's say with pensions and all, this cost the airline another 20.000 Euros, for social contributions etc, so the FO would be costing the airline 80.000 Euros a year.

If he flies 900 hours a year, and the average sectors are around 2 hours, that makes it 450 sectors in one year. Each sector have an average of 130 passengers - now lets do the maths, what is the cost for the airline for this FO? Simple, 80.000 Euros / 58.500 Pax = 1.36 cents per ticket would it cost the airline to give a pilot a decent pay.
These figures can be studied in places like CAPA, if you care about aviation, instead of just sitting there watching the magenta line!

I revised the maths, you was right, did an error there. Sorry.

However have in mind this also includes the company paying proper social contribution, pensions etc. Of course this is over-simplified, the cost of a flight is a bit more complex. But it shows the flight crew is not the major cost of the flight, and if airlines can't provide a decent pay, because they are no making enough money, maybe it's better they go out of business.

Maths check. 58,500 passengers cost 80,000 Euros. I make that 1.36 Euros per ticket, not 73 cents. But hey, let's just round it up to 5 Euros on the ticket and pay FOs 295,000 Euros. :)

Last time I looked, there were two pilots on the flightdeck, you'll need to look at those numbers again.

Alycidon; yes of course, it was just a simplified calculation to see the crew cost, if company was to pay properly.

To oversimplify it a bit more, if you not able to work out that cost, say CPT would be double this, you would have 2.72 so a total of 4.08 Euros per flight towards the cost of crew.

The airlines are looking to make it as efficient as possible these days.
The LoCo's however are saving loads because they are cheating society by not paying any social contributions for the people working for them.
These numbers would be for a regular company. The LoCo in Europe would obviously have much lower numbers, to show they are getting more value for their money.

That's the aim of airlines today, to calculate and make sure, the get as much as possible from per employee or contracter.

I agree, you do make a very silly statement....the aircraft is a liability The operator is obliged to pay for it, pay maintenance,airworthiness requirements,
depreciation, cost of finance etc.....so, even when it's parked up, it's still burning money.

nor is there any shortage of the same type wanting to fly for them

so, really, it's an incestuous relationship.....Wannabe pilots prostitute themselves, every bit as much as deluded fools think an airline is the key to the contents of the strongroom.

You actually answer your own statement:- @ Truckflyer....Obviously, with a business skillset like yours, you've missed your vocation.....you really should consider the post of CEO of an airline.:}

Apart from your accountancy skills, you've sidestepped the "crew" part of the equasion....so, you pay more to the FO...Captain sees his premium devalued, so he wants a rise....ditto through the cabin crew...suddenly, you're faced with needing an extra 10 bums on seats on EVERY flight,to give the revenue to pay these extra wages. If you really think the true cost of an employee is only 30% on top of their wage, you need to go back to school......been there, done it...try +80% as a minimum and you'll be close average is nearer +100% and the first tome a vindictive ex-employee tries the "industrial tribunal
route, you can start multiplying instead of adding....which is why, belatedly, they've introduced a fee ,to stop vexatious claims.
As I said before...a massive amount of capital and turnover is being punted around for a very small return ...I also said...if it's so damned lucrative, become a boss, then you'll have the penny and the toffee...oh, but wait, that entails risking everything and you don't want to do that, but just want the rewards..... envy!

A ludicrous, sweeping generalisation...A minority have tried it and the slugs in government employ are slithering slowly towards closing the loopholes.

Sorry, I meant LOSINGmoney

They certainly aren't marching up to Boeing, banging a wedge of cash on the desk and asking for "a couple of those" (OK, maybe some of the Oil-rich countries do!:p )
They weigh up the cost of offloading present fleet , against the liability incurred in upgrading, versus the more economical fuel-burn and operating savings....upgrading is also a way of persuading the punter to buy a space on one of your flights, instead of the opposition's.

Apart from an Irish operator, a lot of Western airlines have gone, many are in a precarious position...if you think otherwise, why don't you borrow money, just like they do, and get an airline bought? (sorry , the greener grass is a blinkered illusion)

That's the aim of airlines today, to calculate and make sure, the get as much as possible from per employee or contracter.

Yup, welcome to the world of business...wether you're making new "Dreamliners" or plastic dog-turds, the same principle applies, you work your assets!


In your dream world, there would be fewer airlines, fewer aircraft, the job would carry it's former prestige, the Hosties would all be gorgeous and "goers"
the airline would invest a shedload of money in YOUR development, without any security that you wouldn't jump ship as soon as they finished paying for your T/R etc...massive pay, inflation -linked pension......AHHH.

Unfortunately, only the top 10% of the population would be able to afford to fly and there is a large percentage of those , who already have a personal jet.

Net result.....dramatic shrinking of the industry, loss of economy of scale that mass air travel bought in the 60's onwards....what makes you think it wouldn't be you getting chucked on the redundancy scrapheap.

flying is no longer elitist, it's mainstream, utility transport . Like a lot of other professions (solicitor, doctor, teacher, accountant....0 the Proles are allowed in now and the exclusivity has gone forever. suck it up or move out!

Don't do it
 

Anyone thinking of starting an atpl please don't, the industry is an embarrassment.

Paying crazy money for training with no guarantee of a job.
Ever smaller salaries which makes paying any loan off a serious problem.
About as glamorous as being a bus driver.
Never being at home at sensible times.
Working more and more hours for decreasing per diems.
Six monthly testing.
Many unlucky guys will have permanent worries if the airline will even survive or wether they will get paid that month.
And finally I can say after 7 years its seriously boring.

My advice is if you are bright enough to pass your ATPL get yourself into the city earn some decent money, get paid to train, go out for big lunches on the company credit card, and if traveling is your thing you will no doubt get plenty of opportunities to do it.

Think very carefully about joining the airline industry it's a decreasing industry with ever shrinking terms and conditions. :ugh::{:ugh:

Odd, BA are looking on track to make a £1.5Bn operating profit by 2015. Perhaps I should be working for free to 'help them out' as well.


I'm a professional and demand adequate recompense for the job I do, the unsociable hours and public holidays I work and the working conditions (night flights etc.) I have to endure.


Personally I get well paid so I can put up with it, I've put up with the bottom end as well. If you don't like it then leave, I've got an old flying buddy who is now a NHS manager, he loves it.

cockney steve;

I would rather say it is around 30 - 50%, not 100%.

These companies today are paying you p.... and expect you yourself to pay tax of the little money you get!

And for many, much to many, the profession is not giving even a decent life or lifestyle.

Yes Steve, I do know a thing or 2 or maybe 3 about running a business, and I did not need to go school to learn how. I used my life experience, and I have been very successful within all the business I have done in the past.

I am sitting everyday thinking of how much I am loosing, just to get paid a can of Beans, and it ain't even Heinz! (and loosing is not just about money, but obviously that is also a considerable amount)

There are companies offering good prices to passengers, and good conditions for their staff.
No permanent success will come from putting people in conditions where they can't thrive and be happy.
Short term the shareholders will make many, long term... they will be history.

"Loosing"
 

Why is the most common spelling mistake on this website the word "loose", instead of "lose". Or "loosing", instead of "losing"?

The aviation industry isn't a disgrace. Travel outside Europe to a clothes factory where workers get paid 1p a day and work 364 days a year if you want a disgrace.

Aviation is an honourable profession. It's fun, flashy and exciting.

But it's also very hard on your life. If you want the good, you'll need to take the bad as well. This is the only question you should ask yourself if you're considering whether or not to become a commercial pilot.

Ego plays a big part in this (and there's nothing wrong with a bit of ego). Everyone here loves to fly. We dreamt about it when we were kids. But why 'Airline Pilot' specifically?

- So we can impress the chicks/guys at the bar
- So we can impress our old school buddies at the reunion
- So we have something to talk about at parties


Otherwise, why not just become an aerial photographer or such like? Does size really matter to you that much? :E

If you want to be an airline pilot then become an airline pilot, but do it for truthful reasons. It won't make you a fortune - come on, you don't even need a degree or any business or professional experience to become one. We don't even need to be that intelligent - and I mean that in the kindest possible way.

I love this industry and I love the people who work in it. But I have, and still do work in other industries (where I make my money). And comparatively, despite being very capable and hardworking fantastic people, pilots are in general quite thick (I speak from personal experience and again say this in the nicest possible way!)

There is no requirement for long term strategic thinking, business acumen, financial expertise etc, so don't expect the same kind of salary that you get from jobs that do require these skills. The requirement you get is to work harder than you ever thought you would, cope with extreme pressure and worry, and try to survive in a turbulent industry where the companies' priorities are brand image and shareholder loyalty. So why should you earn more than a metro driver who carries 2000 passengers on their train on their own without a 'co-driver'? Justify it if you want it.

But overcome your ego and fly for the truthful reasons that you want to fly - then you will love your career!

Finally, my 'pprune disclaimer'. What I say or think doesn't matter. What you say or think doesn't matter. But our jobs and our industry is meaningful. So don't get rude or foul mouthed (and possibly fall into a catergory I mentioned above) if you want to challenge my comments or engage in a debate about this. Be intelligent. Be professional. Don't let us down.

I respect you all.

:yuk:

You got that bit right...

Doctoring doesn't require those skills either. But there's the little issue of lives in your hands, plus the multi million dollar value of the equipment you're entrusted with. I could understand people accepting the boredom and monotony if they at least got paid in a manner commensurate with those facts.

talktomegoose:

First I don't feel the word disgrace is misplaced, starting to compare with such situations as you do, probably deserves an even stronger word than disgrace to be honest.

"Aviation is an honourable profession. It's fun, flashy and exciting." I am nearly tempted to ask you if you are 10 years old? Or are you living in a bubble made of jelly and ice cream!

I think you been watching a bit to much Top Gun, to impress chicks/guys, old school buddies or have something to talk about at parties?

Well first you will have no time for old school buddies, and to tired to see chicks, and never be available when there is a party!

I can assure you, I did not become an airline pilot for any of those reasons! Sure some do, but seriously!!!

It's true you don't need a degree, but your ATPL is the equivalent of an undergraduate degree, if you decide to study for a Master within aviation, so you are talking some kind of nonsense here.

Few things first, the basic training you have with CPL & MEIR - does not make you a qualified and competent airline pilot.
I recall I was very proud when I passed my CPL and IR, but this was only the licence to be allowed to apply - the step up from that level to the airlines is massive and much hard work. Looking back, I can see how little I knew when I was newly qualified, however trough good training, and some great people I got to know, they helped me get to the level that was required.

People are talking about that the airlines expect to be making the most possible money on us, and returning as little as possible to us.
However if I have made an invest of £100.000 in myself, I do expect to get something back for my investment.
This amount, is fairly close to what most will spend on training from 0 until they are in an airline job.

I am not proclaiming I was any better than other newbies looking for a way in to this business. What I can say today, is that the investment so large, is very questionable, compared to what you will be getting in return.

What people like you Goose, have to understand, your training does not stop after CPL / IR, or after TR, or after line training, or after OPC, or after line check, or after you get 500 hours, to get an ATPL you will need to get to 1500 hours, and quite a few checks on the way, where you need to keep improving your skills and knowledge, if you even remotely one day are going to be considered for Captain upgrade.

So to belittle the profession in the way you do, is insulting for the pilot doing this job, and is a part of the problem, this attitude, to many are lacking respect for their own profession and maybe are in it for the wrong reasons.

That you say you have to work with something else to survive, is a major part of the problem, pilots today can not survive on the conditions they are being offered, and it will take another Colgan in EASA land before somebody might start to wake up, this industry only changes with the price of blood, that is the unfortunate truth.

Increase flight time limitations, there will have to be an accident where they can see the new FTL is dangerous before they do anything.

I have seen experienced Captains make mistakes, so that they are all always safe is not correct, that's the reason we have multi-crew cockpits.

Why should I earn more than the metro driver? Because he has not invested a £100.000 in his business idea and own training - it does not make business sense, seems to be you are one of those you are talking about, lacking "requirement for long term strategic thinking, business acumen, financial expertise etc,"

Also the metro driver does not constantly need to be tested several times a year. In 1994 I had a job as HGV long haul truck driver, I made more in a month back in 1994, than today as an airline pilot.

If you do end in a commuting situation, you will discover that most pilots hate that life, I have never met one who said he loved commuting half the world to go to job, you would also discover many saying if they had something else they could do, they would leave aviation.

After reaching TOC, and sitting for the next 4 hours staring at the sun or the moon, with a Captain that hardly says a word, and who makes a comment on every decision you make on the approach, I am sorry, I quickly loose the love of flying.
Of course in between you have some that are great, and the day goes faster, yet doing it for peanuts is not going to cut it for me.
Life is more than a fast jet to be happy! And I know that - it does not help that I have all the money in the world, if I can not have free time to go where I want and relax with my family.

If you have children, you can not take them out of school when you want, this will in the UK in some places cost you £150 a day. School holidays are always peak season in aviation, so you can not take holidays when your children have holidays.
If not commuting, less of a problem, as you would be more home.

They will always be my number one choice, ahead of any airlines requirement of me.

But let's get it clear, not all is even about money, it's having enough time so that you can also have a life outside the cockpit.

The aviation industry will be a lot better off without the ex-military psychos thinking they are the rulers of the universe !!

And by the way, what is wrong about wanting to make money on your profession?

Why don't just all do it for a bag popcorn and a free movie ticket to watch Top Gun III ?

Regarding Ex-Mil guys, I don't agree there, I have flown with a few, and have never had much issues with them.
To be fair, most the people I have flown with have been fairly good, I am sure in every company you will have a few people that are less desirable to fly with.

Wow, what a broad brush you wield, must be heavy with that chip on your shoulder.


sigh...

Perhaps because driving a train does not require years of expensive training and and the thing itself cannot really be influenced doing much except going faster or slower following the tracks as it moves with more or less unlimited resources?

Pablo Diablo,


Plus, if the donk stops on a train or the power goes then the train can coast to a stop and the automated signalling stops other trains ploughing into it.


A luxury we, unfortunately, don't have.



Never happened on my flight deck, generally have a chat, usually have a laugh and help EACH OTHER at the critical parts of the flight. We ALL make mistakes, the important thing to learn is that the cockpit is NEVER a place to point score and spout the 'holier than thou' attitude as you are only ever as good as your last controlled crash! ;-)

I have experienced this at both of the airlines I've worked for and I too know it has damaged my mindset to the point where I gained very little enjoyment from flying. Bad apples and pilots with their own opinions are to be found in all airlines but the problem is 10 x bigger in the developing world. At my last place, I was deliberately partnered to fly with the same Captains again and again because other FOs refused to fly with them. One crewing guy even admitted it.

The point here is there are two distinct groups of pilots. Those have flown in an environment in which senior and junior colleagues are respected as qualified individuals and therefore trusted to do the right job at the right time (Northern/Central Europe, North America, possibly Aus) and those who have flown within environments where due to cultural deficiencies a senior will distrust a junior no matter what or no matter how capable that junior is (ME, Africa, South Asia, Far East, Latin America). Those who have no concept of this are lucky to be working for airlines with that do not have this problem.

I've flown in Turkey and southern China where the problem is huge. No matter who is sitting on the right, a lot of the time the guy on the left is likely to be a jittery, untrusting, ego maniac. You might remind me to man up and deal with it but it's no easy task adjusting to each dictator and following he's "way" only for the next guy to rubbish it and force you to do it his "way". Such an environment isn't good for your health or your career. The truth is there are a million ways to skin the cat as far as conducting a good approach goes and it's never the LIPs or TRIs/TREs that have the problem but the training captain wannabes (who funnily enough criticise the trainers). Unfortunately it's my belief that in certain airlines, these type of captains make up the majority and often you can tell how comfortable the cockpit environment will be just by looking at the name and nationality of your Captain.

Superpilot - What you say is very true. It can create a great displeasure to fly with these kind of RHS.
Unfortunately the nationality does have an impact, as I have experienced myself.

I must have my own little black box, where info is about who to deal with this specific Captain.

However I have tried to use ever flight, even these flights as something valuable for me, how I do not want to be as a captain. By the way, also within Europe these cultural differences to exist within some, and the experience can be like day and night depending on their age.

It can get a bit tedious, having to be flexible enough to adapt around every variation of Captains around in a company.
And after a while, and repeated conversations, it just gets to tiring to keep trying to change their ways.

And when constantly getting above average reports on sim checks and line checks, it just wears you down.

The main thing is to stay awake, to make sure they don't :mad: Up. Which in one year, I have seen 3 of these characters do.

Says someone who has presumably never worked in The City.

It's as naive as saying "become a pilot, travel the world in 5* hotels, shag loads of beautiful hosties, all whilst earning a fortune".

Hear, hear, Artie.

I have loads of Uni mates who went into the City. They earn double my pittance but I'd wager I work fewer hours and have more fun. Working in the City is not 'fun'. None of my friends ever discuss their jobs out of work. They all want to know about flying. I also live in a far nicer house with half the mortgage of my friends because I don't pay City prices. Oh, and I get far more quality time with my child (temporarily, due to my current basing).

I can only presume talktomegoose has been watching too much Top Gun (great movie :ok: ) or working at professional recruitment fairs! There is a place in the profession for that kind of enthusiasm and, yes, there are the odd occasion where there is a perceived glamour. However, that is on the decline due to the deteriorating terms and conditions under which we serve our time. To suggest we all sign on the dotted line to seek such superficial rewards is nonsense.

By the way, I did as much actual study for the ATPL as I did for my two degrees, each of which were pretty undemanding despite being a a red brick Uni in very well regarded academic subjects. So, don't assume a degree is difficult: any idiot can get one from any number of the plethora of universities. Many people who get degrees would struggle with the ATPL let alone the basic flying, IR or TR. Yet ironically, in my opinion it's the dumbing down of the ATPL (multiple choice questions do not require you to understand the subject matter) that has made it too easy to become a commercial pilot.

Truckflyer and Superpilot

We've all experienced the cultural differences. Paradoxically it's one of the things I love about flying. I've met people from so many different backgrounds and nationalities in my airline. There are stereotypes and some days you have to bite your tongue or resist saying "Your controls" because they might as well fly the plane...but I must add that I have also flown with people from certain countries where issues are said to exist with CRM or attitudes to SOPs who have been inspirational pilots. Ironically, my least favourite pilots are just as often those from my own culture as from abroad. ;)

Mikehotel152 - about cultural differences, can't disagree on that, my 2 best instructors was from Poland and Jamaica.

However I have stopped listen to what other peoples experience is with a captain, so many times have I found other people complaining, and when I have a flight or check the guy is great.

It's like a box of chocolates, you never know what you get until you try one.

Exactly, no pulse in any way when the train goes dark... Just a "ohh" and that´s it - late for the meeting...

Actually if we use that scenario of yours a bit further then we could attempt to put an end to all future comparisons between buses, airplanes and trains except they all carry people from A to B.

It´s worth a shot.

If we would be able measuring the pulse of people traveling in different types of transport for example buses, trains and airplanes before and after we would ensure "everything goes completely dark" then without being overly optimistic we would possibly see a increase in the pulse and also increases in the pulse depending on the type of transport the person is in. As a result of that we would be able to conclude there are indeed more differences between buses, trains and airplanes than what initially appears to be the case.

Love trains. Quiet, no seatbelt signs, full carry on electronics without restrictions, no nasty booking experiences, more space, no issues with baggage, more of everything. Arriving 20 minutes before departure of course not problem.

Pleasant, exotic, every once in a while.

Truckflyer: How much money/ time off etc do you want out of interest? I mean that genuinely; in your opinion what would be a fair package commensurate with your training, investment and current skill level?

I happen to agree with much of what Goose had to say. Maybe airline pilot isn't always the job for a flying enthusiast. There are lots of flying jobs which don't have hours spent in the cruise monitoring automatics etc. I don't think he was being deluded, just honest about enjoying flying and happy to take the rough with the smooth.

As far as I can tell your point is that you don't like your job much and feel like you, and your profession, are undervalued. This thread has shown that clearly opinions vary. Maybe it's time to cut your losses and start looking for something new that you will enjoy.

As it stands though, I think you've made your point.

Cheers

This is funny but awfully close to the truth for many:-

Surprised ? This was coming and it was possible to see it coming long time ago. When the guy on your right is treated like an animal , it is just a matter of time before they will treat you like them whenever they will able to. Once they have broken their will , they will move to the next level and next group. Now it is time of Captains.

Tomorrow they will replace F/O with computers and finally they will place computers on any aircrafts.

They don't complain, cost less, don't have human needs and you can bit them whenever they don't cooperate.

Perfect system for O'leary!