Is BALPA fit for purpose
 

If your Airline has a seniority based culture this thread effects you!

You may have heard that Flybe plans to make 179 out of 600 pilots redundant.

You are probably not aware that the 179 are the most senior in the company
(People with up to 25 years loyal Flybe service)

Flybe have a seniority based culture. Their policies state that redundancies will be carried out using LIFO (Last IN First Out) regardless of seat, fleet or base. The management unilaterely (without union or employee agreement) withdrew these policies just before announcing the redundancies, saying
1. We can't afford to do it that way
2. We think it would infringe age discrimination laws

Flybe have a mixed fleet (Prop and Jet). All the senior pilots (Jet) have been put at risk of redundancy. luckily for them no prop pilots have been.

If Balpa allow Flybe to get away with disregarding the policies that all pilots have based their career decisions on it will set a national president! So this effects pilots everywhere!

I'm not convinced that Balpa have the backbone for this fight, which is why I'm seeking to apply pressure on them by starting this thread.
I believe the time has come to test LIFO in the courts, so that all airlines will know if its an enforceable principle.

The Flybe LIFO issue could be one of Balpa's finest moments or it could prove them to be spineless (unfit for purpose).
Flybe are in consultation with Balpa now and it will be concluded mid Jan.
If you feel this issue is important then please watch what happens closlely and comment on this thread.
I shall reserve my judgement until the end but hope to applaud them. Otherwise I shall find myself in a tribunal, with many others, at our own expense wondering why we paid all those Balpa subscriptions.

Before "Big BALPA" gets the usual kicking can I ask:

What communications have you received from your company council (i.e. your Reps)?

The company are quite correct that using just LIFO could be deemed illegal under age discrimination law if someone involved took the company to court.

During a similar process at bmi some years ago the BALPA CC came up with a system which slightly skewed the list based on things like disciplinary warnings and a few other factors which I can't honestly remember off the top of my head.

The result was almost LIFO but the company lawyers were happy with it. Of course it didn't get challenged in court, the people who were made redundant took it on the chin and left without a fight as far as I know so we will never know if the system they came up with was legal or not.

Good luck to all at Flybe, I know all too well what an uncertain future feels like and its not nice at any time let alone just before Christmas.

The proposed redundancies are extremely bad news.

Changes to legislation have resulted in statutes that all companies have to adapt to and comply with. In many cases this will result in changes of previous policies that might otherwise be unlawful. Obviously, a policy has no supremacy to a law, particularly in a court.

Many companies are now having to amend their employment contracts and general terms and conditions to take into account these changes. LIFO isn't necessarily a violation of the Equality act 2010, however when used in isolation it may well be. Many companies have now adopted a "matrix" of criteria to be applied in the event of redundancies, so that the requirements of the act are best complied with.

I think you mean "precedent" but it doesn't matter. The statute has supremacy. You are of course correct in that it does affect pilots (and other staff) in most companies. BALPA (as a trade union and collective of its membership) would be the same as an individual in these circumstances. You would take legal advice. If that advice is that you have a weak case (however much it affects you, or you disagree,) then you must decide what you wish to do. Plenty of people have spent a great deal of money fighting cases that were doomed from onset. A trade union (using their own legal advice) would likely make their decisions in the realisation that it was the collectives money they were using to embark on that course of action.

Have they indicated to you what the advice they have received is? Presumably the negotiations taking place include various options and potential compromises. A bad time, and I wish you the best possible outcome.

By the way, Itch it's untrue that no Dash pilots have been placed at risk.

The big unknown, due to the usual lack of facts to be found here, is what BALPA are doing behind the scenes in terms of discussions with FlyBe but also in terms of future legal action. It is inconceivable to me that they have not taken legal advice and they will undoubtedly fight any case they can realistically win. I can only commend Bealzebub's excellent post and wish all those affected the very best.

I can't see it as being illegal, it happens everyday in the public and private sector. A position is made redundant it has nothing to do with the person filling that position. I know of friends even family that have been made redundant due to the position they were filling being made redundant with them serving many years in the company.

If the jet jobs are to go then that's just the way it is.

LIFO seems the fairest but is not a legal requirement.

There are plenty of q400 pilots currently at risk. Mostly jet pilots at risk though as the aircraft are being parked up full time (instead of the usual 70%).

Itch read your contract it states that the company reserve the right to make redundancies and use fleet as a discriminator. Policy F said the opposite. Policy F was made redundant.

Anyhow there are some jobs around if you have jet time or command time, take the paltry redundancy and run before a volcanic apd powered snow storm makes everyone redundant...

Itch

No Prop pilots have been put at risk? I can assure you they have. I am looking at my at risk letter as I type this, and the measly £2700 I'll get paid upon exiting the door.

Interesting, kind of strengthens the point of view put forward on the other "Ageism" thread. Anyone hazard to take a guess at the average age of the last 50 hires into FlyBe?

Itch,

Hardly a precedent.

As Max Angle mentions, this issue arose over 5 years ago in bmibaby. Were other BALPA members not paying attention to what happened there?

Anyone relying on LIFO in a redundancy scenario these days is in for a surprise.

The world doesn't work like that anymore.

Again, if the meaning of the word "Solidarity" meant that all pilots, across airline borders, stood together, then maybe a defence of LIFO would gain traction, but, again, that isn't the way the world works....lamentably in my opinion.

That isn't BALPA's fault, its yours, and mine and that of every other pilot.

Lets take some responsibility for the **** we're in rather than look to blame someone else.

I'm not a Flybe pilot but think the purpose of this thread is directed at UK pilots in general & maybe we should all stick together & get Balpa to start looking after our interests instead of their own . I am a supporter of the idea of a Union but Balpa is no longer fit for purpose .

If enough people support their colleagues at Flybe & withhold their union subscriptions for a period of time , Balpa may start looking after the British Airline Pilot again like Airline unions on the continent seem to be able to do for their members.


Good luck to all at Flybe.

A major part of the issue inside of flybe is that we used to have a lovely policy in place to deal with such matters, the document formally known as Policy F.

The thing about Policy F, was that all the pilots agreed with it, so did Balpa and the company. It was enshrined in the same document as our scheduling, pay etc.

Despite having years to amend, or change the company did nothing. Policy F sat dormant.

When it came down to using it as a tool in redundancy, we all discovered that the cost of retraining Embraers drivers back onto the Dash made the policy entirely unworkable. Chopping the bottom of the list only gets rid of the cheap FO's, and the cost of retraining would bankrupt the company.

It's also true, some of the senior guys are paid as much as 4 FO's combined.

Sitting in the bottom third of the list, I have to say it feels pretty lowsy to think I might be 'safe', but another friend or colleague with years more service might be out. That doesn't sit right.

I've been working angles myself to leave, but without meaningful jet time, or command time on the Dash I'm stuck.

I feel for all of the Flybe pilots whether they have been made redundant or not. They are about to face up to the realities of the seniority system that has governed their lives since the time they joined that company.

Suddenly, the bubble has burst and 179 of them have to go.

So, who has to go?

That is indeed the question.

I have been deeply invoved in this question on at least three occasions during my long aviation career.

The first time that it affected me was when I was a DC-10 captain in Laker. We were told that we were going to have to cut back, and, because of my seniority number (nothing to do with my ability or my needs to feed my family) I was going back into the right seat.

I was a pretty young man in those days and my first thought was why don't they get rid of the old expensive captains and keep me?

As it turned out, Fred went bust before I had to make the move.

I then went to work in the US of A and got to know ALPA and the International Brotherhood of Teamsters quite well. Out there, it is quite vicious. Your seniority number is all that matters. It is EVERYTHING. So, if the company needs less pilots in the winter, then you will either move back to the right seat or get furloughed at the drop of a hat (mind you, I did learn how to use the Railway Labor Act of 1928 or whatever it was to my benefit).

My third experience of the seniority system was when I became No.1 on the seniority list in my airline which operated around 40 aeroplanes. It was actually a very pointless position to achieve because by the time they get round to firing the last forty or so pilots then their is no airline left.

I am always very wary of the call for total solidarity in taking industrial action for the simple reason that few people can afford the privilege but a lot of the others are quite simply stuffed financially and can't afford the luxury of protest.

I have vivid memories of coming out of one of one the UAA DC-10 simulators in Denver and airlining back to Miami. At the airport there was still a line of Continental pilots in uniform protesting about the take over of Continental by Frank Lorenzo. This was three years after the take over and they were still protesting. The depressing fact was that Continental were still flying every single flight that they had done before the unpleasantness.

In other words, they had found a sufficient number of pilots who didn't give a toss for the senior pilots and were quite prepared to fly for the new reduced terms.

So, there is nothing new this side of the universe.

Therefore, despite BALPA, there are going to be a lot of pilots who are going to have to seriously look at their own problems and decide whether to take a stand on the seniority position or not.

Many of them might wish that they belonged to the Teamsters rather than the rather ineffectual BALPA.

I was told that the wage balance was way out with the top third of pilots taking over 2/3rds of the wage bill.

I can't see the Q400 fleet fighting for the Jet pilots, they would be fighting to make themselves redundant.

There won't be a lot BALPA can do about it either if the rest of the pilots are just happy to have a job.

I am not at Flybe.

I take no joy in what is happening at Flybe.

What I will say is that if you think there will be universal or even popular support for any action to protect those at the top of a system of seniority which the current crop at the bottom can never hope to enjoy the fruits of then you are living in a dream world.

Perhaps this salutary tale might make a few others start to question the "fairness" of seniority systems.

The ones who argue hardest for seniority systems are the ones who don't believe that they will ever have to experience starting again at the bottom as many of us have had to do.

p.s. no, BALPA is not fit for purpose. Us junior guys have known it for a while, now it turns out it is no good for the senior guys either.

LIFO
 

As one of the pilots on the jet fleet at risk of redundancy I have to say that there needs to be some system in place to protect loyalty surely? If all airlines are just allowed to make people redundant at the drop of a hat everytime they move or remove an airframe then none of us can sleep soundly in our beds at night can we?

The point about LIFO is that when you join an airline you know you're vulnerable - but its the price you pay for getting a job. As you stay with an employer and advance your career you expect that your loyalty to the firm will result in increased job security. The crucial point is that both the Flybe written policy F and also the pilot employment contract state quite plainly that LIFO will be used as the basis for any redundancies and indeed this fact has been widely accepted by both management and the pilot community. It is this sudden shifting of the goalposts with no union negotiation that is so abhorrent and why so many of the affected pilots are considering legal action. The original poster is right though - as a membership we have all paid our subs over many years (and BALPA membership isn't cheap). Now at a time when the very basis of our contract is being attacked we need BALPA to fight for us in court if necessary. As individual pilots facing redundancy we should not be forced to engage in legal action on our own - this is a battle BALPA must fight if they wish to protect the employment rights enshrined in the written policy - and its outcome has ramifications in all airlines.

Retraining people may not be as expensive as the company likes to claim. They are currently paying for simulators, line trainers and TRI's whether they are using them or not. Many of us still hold valid Q400 type ratings and last flew it within 2 or 3 years. The truth is that a couple of sim sessions and an LPC would see many back on line and a bit of live training could follow. We're not talking about the company having to provide a full type rating for 150 people. In addition as a compromise I suspect many would be prepared to contribute to the training cost if it secures their job - however that isn't an option that is currently being offered...

"If all airlines are just allowed to make people redundant at the drop of a hat everytime they move or remove an airframe then none of us can sleep soundly in our beds at night can we?"

Unfortunately that has been the case in the non-airline world for 150 years - technology changes and the staff take the hit - not many traditional printers, or hand loom weavers around......................

PS I suspect the "re-training" issue is a red herring - they just want/have to cut the numbers of staff fast - retaining people to have to cut them anyway - no chance

Policy F is non-contractual isn't it?

Policy F
 

Spandex,

The company state that Policy F is non-contractual

The lawyers state that written policy becomes contractual if accepted by both parties over a period of time.

In short I think the issue at hand might be which is cheapest for the company - negotiating some kind of retraining programme/part time working compromise maybe even part subsidised by the employee or face the unknown quantity that is a large class action lawsuit with 150 people that could result in bad press, prolonged litigation and a significant compensation payment.

I suspect Desk-pilot has it right.

It is more than likely it is the salaries ( going forward) that the Beanies wish to save a bob on, by getting rid of the most expensive pilots, highly unlikely it has much to do with training costs.

Perhaps this is strictly essential, but I doubt it. I have had conversations in the past with those more intimately acquianted with the black art of costs & accountancy than I am, it has usually been revealed to me that wage costs are relatively unimportant in an airline in the grand scheme of things. If they truly are so desparate to reduce these, I would suggest you are already up sh1t creek minus a prop blade.

I would wager that pure corporate greed, manifested in someone seeing a way to make an extra buck on the premise of "survival methods", will be closer to the truth here.

Didn't know that DP, thanks Any idea then what the time period is and how long Policy F has been extant?

I suspect you're right about the course of action being the cheapest for the company, when has it ever been different? Apart from JF's nice new pad in Belgravia of course.

You might find that flybe are stuck.

The job is being made redundant not the person.

So if they make someone redundant and then fill the position with someone else within 1 year then the person who is made redundant can then start legal proceedings.

BALPA will be stuck in the middle as well. The senior pilots wanting it to be LIFO and back fill Q400 slots, the pilots who would now be kicked out will be saying hang on that's illegal BALPA take them to court my job wasn't made redundant there is someone else doing it now.

I think the removal of 2/3rds of the wage bill will be the reason if in fact that is true. The training costs are a bit of a red herring in my opinion 1 senior Captains salary for a year would pay for 6 type ratings.

Welcome to the new world of aviation, its now very unusual for pilots to actually work for the airline. We are all pumped through some 3rd party company which deals with the wages and if they want they just close it down and transfer the pilots to another company if they have any problems with crew. Its a right pain, some of the youngsters can't get mortgages etc even after working for the same outfit for 5 years because on paper they are self employed even though they don't want to be. Then you get the occasion transfer of middle company's due to changes in tax laws so the company's can take advantage of low corporation tax's. Which leads to the crew being wide open to getting into trouble with multiple country's tax laws.

Company ops , in one country, AOC in another, company owned and controlled in another, crewing company in another, your actually flying out of another one and your resident somewhere else.

I am an at risk year 7 Dash SFO. As I understand it they cannot make a person redundant, but a position. If they make me redundant and then fill my position with an EJet pilot then they will definitely have litigation on their hands.
The whole thing is a sorry mess caused by inept and greedy directors and we are here suffering the consequences. The upshot is I do not want anyone to lose their jobs and it is an absolute travesty that the top end chaps on the seniority list are losing their jobs whilst pilots who have only been here for a year or so are keeping theirs but I'm not going to stick my hand in the air and say get rid of me when I have a mortgage and children to feed, why would I?
As for our contract stating that LIFO is to be used, well I think unfortunately employment law has moved on since our contracts were written so I am not sure what water they would hold in a court of law. Time will tell.

All this talk about following policy f etc is a total waste of time. It simply is never going to happen. If the company were to follow its policies to the letter then it would end up having someone like desk-pilot retrained through an entire type rating on the dash 8 (sorry but a quick sim ride isn't going to do it for everyone) then on your current salary plus relocation allowance go and take some dash fo's job in another base. So potentially £80k+ Dash FO.

The real fight for Balpa should be the pathetic redundancy pay. It is a million miles away from acceptable. Face it the jobs are going you are probably about to be made redundant and as such you should be compensated appropriately. Desk pilot there are some job opportunities for jet pilots go and explore them instead of trying to take a poor dash first officers job?

2014 10 E175
36 Q400

People don't appreciate what a mess this is Flybe still has an un completed order of 35 E175's and all its managed to do with them is park them up in the West Country. Unbelievable.

I think these days they can't even bump people down to FO from the LHS and make an FO redundant if they have to many Captains.

As has been mentioned the same thing happened at bmi baby, where the redundancy by LIFO was in the contract and was ignored, and BALPA didn't help those who were made redundant by base and seat.
If a junior pilot takes flybe to court for unfair dismissal because a senior pilot is given their position Flybe will lose. If a senior pilot takes them to court for ignoring LIFO they might lose, but it is unlikely if they have complied with all the requirements of employment law, which they almost certainly have.
Unfortunately BALPA should have negotiated redundancy policies before they were needed, now is probably to late.
Good luck to all.

So much mis-information, arcdu, the company would not win given the scenario you mention, why would they? There is no such thing in the airline industry or at least in flybe, where a seat is made redundant, what nonsense.

As has already been stated, everyone knows when you sign up that your career will be ruled by seniority, so when it comes to cuts, it has to be seniority, age discrimination would not be an issue either because there is no age discrimination in employment in the first place, not all new starts are 21 yrs of age!

Make older folks redundant and there certainly would be grounds for legal action and the company would lose, they know this and would rather pay out than use that paltry amount to retrain and/or offer part time contracts.

The other point is is, the pools which will be formed, will be mainly LIFO, so again that must be acceptable to the companies legal peeps.

It's a mess, but the company will blink first, Balpa are f'ing useless and the CC even worse but they will revel in the hero worship. :rolleyes:

Is BALPA fit for purpose?

NO!

They were well versed in this problem 4/5 years ago when Baby went through the same thing.

The PN was the same PN for Baby as Flybe had until recent times, your CC would have or should have known about this years ago, the PN definitely did!

The PN and CC should have negotiated a new redundancy policy years ago, that was acceptable to both fleets and all on the seniority system. Then it would have come as no surprise.

Whilst I completely agree with comments over why you are being made redundant, greed etc.... In this instance BALPA and no one else is responsible for allowing an outdated and questionable policy ( due to new laws) to remain for so long after it became clear it wouldn't work.

Another thought, do you think BALPA would risk being sued by pilots from other companies who were made redundant under a matrix system just to protect LIFO in Flybe ?:=:ugh:

Gentleman / Ladies BALPA have yet again failed to act in good time and let you all down.

BALPA. . .an "old boys club", and in certain companies (thinking the one from 5 years ago) members of the same "club" as management.

When asked to grow a pair (thinking supporting IALPA against the blue/yellow Harp here ) about as resilient as a chocolate teapot.

I fear Flybe are about to join the others in the "admirers club" formed by ex BMI/Dan Air etc etc pilots that have been sold down the road over the years.

Leg,

Why don't you go and make your feelings about the CC known on the balpa forum?

Not man enough?

BALPA
 

BALPA...

In my hour of 'need' some months ago...I personally felt very let down indeed by BALPA at that time.

Mine was a complex, medical related issue but I felt that I was very much left to fend for myself in certain areas.

I only received advice between meetings and when the company negotiator was out on the road, using his hands-free car kit!

When the company final offer letter arrived, BALPA responded on a whimper...I was not 100% guaranteed to WIN any tribunal, so I can only assume that I was filed in the 'Too Difficult' in-tray.

I contacted BALPA General Secretary (without reply) stating how let down I felt...I thankfully kept my position and have not looked back after commencing appropriate medication earlier this year, with the full support of UK CAA Medical Division.

I continue to be a 'month-to-month' member of BALPA and I have been very impressed with our new negotiator thus far, after a one-to-one meeting with him recently. Things appear to have improved recently including a newly formed CC.

Good Luck to all at BE, you have our sympathies.

Leg
Call it misinformation if you like, but as sjm stated this happened before at bmi baby. Captains, of which I was one, were made redundant because our positions were no longer needed, whilst first officers in the same bases and captains and first officers at other bases, who were below us on the seniority list, retained their jobs.
So once again, it is a position which is made redundant not a person, under uk employment law, so if flybe make q400 pilots redundant they cannot then give Q400 left or right seats at those bases to more senior pilots, if they did they would lose in court.
It happened in bmi baby and BALPA did not offer any assistance to take the company to court for those made redundant with disregard to seniority, because they did not believe they could win. And in that case LIFO was written into the pilots contract.
As I said, balpa should have been negotiating a redundancy policy whilst business was good and the company making money, the basic rule of negotiation is to negotiate from a position of strength, and at the moment BALPA are not in that strong position.

This may be harsh but....
 

Have to agree with mad_jock - Welcome to a new world...

The company will have a law firm behind them all the way, those of you with "at risk" letters, get your head round this is happening - BALPA/Legal Action/Loyalty moans/Training costs...forget it! Put your effort into looking at your job options...

Thomson made me redundant in 2010, only 8 months after transferring me from the B756 to B737, I've had all the same thoughts as those mentioned here and never been a BALPA member since nor will I ever!

Personally, I think the industry has got worse since, my expectations have never been lower and I've never been so uninspired by recent management I've experienced and some cadets I've met - in nearly 4 years to the day of exiting Thomson, I'll be joining a secure airline with career options and a career package for someone with my experience, but it has come with some large compromises that I've just had to suck-up if I wanna be a pilot in the UK!

Welcome to a new world... - IMHO, it's one where BALPA is just old news and out-dated...but protect yourselves, they will do nothing!

As others have said Bmibaby opened this can of worms 5 yrs ago! BALPA has known it would rear its head again at some point. The LIFO issue created a bit of a divide and a lot of BALPA members left to join the IPA. A quick search on pprune will show the thread and all the discussion points which I'm sure you guys at risk in Flybe may be interested in. Sorry cant remember the title of the thread maybe sjm can?

BALPA is pointless unless you are in BA! IMHO.

Having been under threat of redundancy many times with bmi/baby, and then finally getting made redundant last year, BALPA not much use then either!!!My thoughts are with you all best of luck! Sh#tty thing to go through before Xmas!

The anti-BALPA rhetoric is very en vogue but is totally mis-guided IMHO.

The effectiveness of BALPA at any particular airline boils down to its support from the pilots therein. Thats the way it works.

However, most pilots are too bloody blind to what is going on in the world outside their own airline to realise that they need to be setting the agenda rather than reacting to it.

Blaming BALPA is just dodging your personal responsibility for the s**t we're in.

The out-dated-ness of LIFO has been apparent since at least 2008.

It doesn't matter whether its FlyBe or BA, unless the law changes or a precedent is set, anyone sitting around thinking in a redundancy scenario they're safe because they're at the top of the pile is living in cloud cuckoo land.

The FlyBe situation is a s**t sandwich but it is not a surprise. Nor should it be to any other pilot sitting around with an industrial agreement saying redundancies will be conducted using LIFO.

Just like the FTL issue, perhaps pilots are gradually waking up to the reality that, regardless of which airline we work for, if we can all respect each other, stop thinking of just ourselves and our own "little" airline, stick together, we'd all be better off.

I'm laughing into my soup as we speak.

:D

I am shocked by the previous page of posts. I didn't take the time to read all of the BMI stuff, so had no historical knowledge of what a crock of cR@p industrial law is in the YOOKay.

So, no point to be in BALPA if it all goes t!Ts up, and even more demonstrates what a "joke" the idea that you owe some "loyalty" to any company using your services . . as it is quite obviously a one-way-street.

BALPA is definitely not fit for purpose. There's a lot of good work that goes on no doubt but that gets tarnished with the corruption that exists within it. If BALPA was fit for purpose we wouldn't be witnessing the mass exodus of Virgin Atlantic pilots who've rushed to set up their own union. Just look at what went on with the openskies debacle and say no more.

Pray, tell us then how much better things work in 'FUBAR'?

The matrix system was used by Ezy some years ago when they made some cabin crew redundant. The CC took the company to court and won, Dont have the details but it is not simple.

To make anybody redundant cost money, would it be worth asking Flybe management to contact Ezy on your behalf and rather than pay redundancy put these funds to paying for your type rating and a position with us.

I appreciate there are many hurdles to cross applications etc but the bottom line Ezy are recruiting. Unfortunately this would mean not so many cadets but to fair most line Captains would prefer a few more experienced pilots.

I am also aware of the pilots in the holding pool,however I would image most of these pilots at least do have a job at present and would at the worst just delay your start date.

I for one would look forward to flying with you guys. Good luck