No, naivete of youth is how people end up buying 5 BMWs the minute they upgrade. There is nothing cunning about living within one's means. I'll grant you it's not terribly fashionable anymore, but it's certainly not cunning.

I have to agree with you. I think everybody wants to earn enough to make a decent living, although some people (and not just pilots) have to show how much they earn to everybody, albeit with plenty different reasons (to be popular, to get laid, etc.). This of course costs quite a lot of money and in the end they end up perhaps even worse off than somebody with an average salary - especially on the long term - when they retire and paycheck stops coming.

Lots of assumptions being made here folk on how others spend their money!

I for one have never bothered with the flash cars, or flash holidays for that matter! My greatest luxury was in sending my only son to a private school and it was money well spent now it's time to make provision for my own future and that of my wife's too.

The stock market collapse followed by the global depression wiped out enormous chunks from many private pension funds and annuity rates just continue to fall year on year. People in general (not just pilots) need to work longer to recover those losses instigated by the mismanagement and greed of some very large "respectable" financial institutions. I suspect the younger pilot generation will be even harder hit than my generation so many of you will need to work longer - even if you don't want to.

Fortunately, I still enjoy my job so that coupled with the fact I would prefer to recover a small portion of my pension losses means I shall keep on working just as long as my good health holds and management allow me to stay. If my EASA ATPL is truly valid for life then perhaps I may even be allowed to carry on till I'm 66 years young!?

Well, at least some of us know better than to expect pensions and such, and, hopefully, are planning accordingly.

That's good to hear flyboyike and all with the benefit of hindsight, those before you simply believed they were investing wisely in pension funds that have failed miserably!

It's not even hindsight, I'm such a natural pessimist that I expect absolutely nothing. That way even a little bit is a major pleasant surprise.

If you refer to me personally, that's quite insulting as well as being totally incorrect. I come from a very modest background and have always known how to live within my means. I have no debts or loans. We live in a modest house and have always done most of the work on it myself to save money - I learned DIY out of necessity.

I have always put money aside for retirement and a bit more for a rainy day - when there's been some to spare, that is. There hasn't always been money to spare, certainly not in the days of 15% mortgage rates, which financially crippled many of my generation (watch out you youngsters with big mortgages if those days ever come back - the rate went from 6.5% to 15% almost overnight. Then we'll really find out who is living beyond their means)!

But I do need to keep working as long as I can, and I will, because pensions are worth far less now than those earned by previous generations. If working my backside off to keep my family is seen as at the "unfair expense" of someone who thinks he's more entitled to my salary than I am - well, that's life.

As for BMWs...I have owned three. Only one at a time, though. The first was chosen from a bunch of old bangers, I needed it to drive to work. It cost me £1200 and I ran it for three years and sold it for £800. When it needed maintenance, I did it myself. The other two were five or six years old when I bought them and bought for less than half of the new price. One served me for eight years, the other for seven years. The last time I took out a loan for a car was in 1979 and it was for about £600. I traded in my beloved sports car and bought a four door saloon not long after I got married.

What's more - we shop at Aldi, not Harrods! :rolleyes:

ShyTorque's account will strike a chord with many of us here in the UK and all said without a single hint of bitterness - reality may be slightly different on the other side of the pond however!

Whining is a self destructive kind of emotion, far better to count one's blessings and continue working as long and as hard as you feel able.

Oh, I get it, it's perfectly OK to call me young and naive, but if I respond (and no, it had nothing to do with you personally, I don't care if you live, breathe or die), well now that's just insulting. Thin-skinned much?

S'pose so...just sad to see people end up in morgues trying to suck out that extra penny or two.

You complain too much. Read that post again. I called myself naive.

Not at all. I was saying that it's possible to learn lessons - both positive and negative - from colleagues regardless of age and/or experience. Treating each experience individually and trying to avoid generalisations is a wise approach.

flyboyike
 

flyboyike wrote:

S'pose so...just sad to see people end up in morgues trying to suck out that extra penny or two.

I don't think the statistics will bear that out. In the UK BALPA magazine 'The Log' there was an article, IIRC, that mentioned that airline pilots, on average, lived longer than the general population. I remember that on a thread recently about a pilot who died during a flight you made some highly obnoxious remarks to the effect that he should have already retired.

As pilots we operate under a well defined set of rules, EASA, FAA etc. If these regulations allow a pilot to work to a set age then he/she can work to that age subject to competency and medical checks. Your views do not, thank heavens, come into it.

Where there is a gap between the maximum age of employment and the state pension age then as pilots, who are used to planning ahead, we should make provision for those years without the state pension.

I will not pass judgement on anyone's desire to continue for as long as they can and I would ask they do not judge me. I'm not into big cars and don't have a big house but I did start a family on the late side so early retirement may simply be unaffordable. Other pilots may/will have other circumstances that preclude calling it a day early.

BGQ

You raised some interesting points. As you say it should be based on a scientific analysis of when a pilot's competence, or lack thereof, should decide the retirement age.

I stand by those remarks, had he retired, he might have still been alive, which is usually considered a good thing. Sorry if I hurt Your Excellency's feelings.

Are you implying that pilots stop dying as soon as they stop piloting? Then please explain, as it seems that your young superior intellect has an understanding we old farts don't seem to grasp! :E:p

Well, in a way, yes, I am. My superior intellect understands that the life or an airline pilot is not real easy on the body, and it doesn't get much easier with age. I can tell you from my own experience that it's markedly harder on me now at 38 than it was when I started airline flying at 31. This job takes a toll on you, whether you admit it or not.

With regards to the particular gentleman that BBK brought up so elegantly, I submit that had he not been out there flying, he would have been far more likely to receive proper medical care that he obviously needed and, therefore, might not have ended up on a gurney in a morgue.

So, while I'm not suggesting retirement will render you immortal, I am saying that one might live a bit longer if he slows down a little, smells the roses and, if necessary, gets proper treatment, preferably close to home. As much as I love this job, it's not worth dying for or dying on.

Au contraire, a surprising percentage of pilots seem to shuffle off shortly AFTER retiring. One could argue that 66 is a dangerous age, but it seems to have been the same story when retiral was at 60.

Waking up at awful o'clock/spending the night in a metal tube/time zone changes/ atmospheric pressure changes/DVT/cosmic radiation /crew meals etc etc . . . all bad for us, but, there are other stresses associated with retirement, and we haven't been acclimatising to them for 40 odd year.

It seems in many cases our tired old bodies ( & minds) don't adapt too well to the "stresses" being turned off /or don't much appreciate adapting to new/ novel ones.

flyBOYike
My word that is huge experience, I think you should have chosen another career with all your whining about how you should be in the left seat already. HTFU or go do something else.

Must be a sign of great experience when one is unable to argue the issues and instead chooses to sling personal insults. Guess that's what I have to look forward to.

Everyone is happily talking about working until the average age of natural death! Are we still going to be a functional contributor to the industry on the 'front line' as we age.

I started in aviation (glider) when I was fourteen, at fifty five I am finding I suffer fools less easily and get tired a lot earlier.

Time to contribute in some other way methinks, at the moment us 'ageing' pilots need to look more towards regulation, management, mediation and training lest the bean counters take down what's left of the industry.

This job has changed so much in the last 20 years. Anyone thinking about it for a career, please think of a different career. When you earn a decent salary, have weekends off and are not constantly knackered you can go hire a light aircraft and enjoy it when you want to!
Invest your £100K in a different line of work is my opinion….

Flyboyike,

Let's see, a whole seven years and you are noting the aging that airline flying is doing already? You won't make 50 or 60, if that's the trend. I've 17 years of full-time active duty, three wars; a total of 15 years of corporate and 5 airline and still hungry for more. No, don't need the money, either.

Galaxy Flyer, that's exactly what I said, I certainly won't make to 60, nor do I want to.

Thank you for your service.

Lets see what you say when your 59.

65
 

Excuse me if this has been mentioned before but I do not want to trawl through all the posts.
I have a valid licence, just renewed my LPC/OPC etc etc. I have just turned 65 and I am not even allowed to be the third pilot to extend the FT on a long duty day. Now that IMHO is plain crazy. It is rules for the sake of rules. Where is the safety case for denying me a very cost effective way of helping the crewing situation in my company? It simply means the crews have to fill out more discretion reports.What is safer? 2 crews doing a 14 hour day or 2 pilots + an old fart like me getting in the way. I suppose the space cadets will say the former!

Hawker, play some golf, enjoy life a little, learn to let go.;)

Sail round the world; or as far as you can get. or Remember who the wife is before she wonders who you are and why you are still there after 5 days.

Since you have been giving advice and complaining about age vs the job, and given the above you apparently understand the concept of letting go, so perhaps you should take some of your own advice to heart. You'll last longer, and there are much larger aviation related fish to fry. :cool:

These days I often don't suffer fools at all.

However, in contrast to yourself (and I'm older than you) I don't seem to get as tired as quickly as I used to. Certainly not as quickly as my co-pilot, who is some quarter century younger than me. Maybe I just learned how to pace myself.

Indeed, and that's exactly what I'm going to do soon enough. Most of y'all will probably still be hanging on, and that is well.

.A couple of beers at midday, followed by a few hours decent sleep as a result - instead of tossing and turning in a vain hope of getting some sleep, did wonders for the following night flight !

( but don't tell anyone)

When one of my colleagues was about to retire ( at 55 in those days ) his wife was panic stricken - " I married him for Better or Worse" she said "Not breakfast, lunch and bloody dinner "

Rumour is NZ's CAA and Australia's CASA will both adopt this new rule.

Unlikely in NZ.... refer NZ's overriding Human Rights Act regarding discrimination.... don't know about Australia

If it does, pretty much mean mandatory retirement at the big aero club in NZ.