Simples, trained in 2007-2008 just before the bubble burst. Yes fell for all of the OAA hype. Nearly 30 guys on my course. About 25-30% have no job but loads of debt, the others are in the lo co trap as contractors. For all the guys who have a job every single one had to pay for their TR one way or another. On a brighter note there is one yes ONE perhaps two who through their own judgment, foresight, good fortune and dam right all out luck have a proper flying job.

Whats the answer? I really don't know but if I were looking at it today perhaps I would think very differently about the risks. I write this not as a bitter unemployed graduate but a very very fortunate one. Its been the most unstable 5 years of my life.

We cant tell you what to do but look at the stats from my course. I did go flight instructing and my advice would be, if you still really want to. A: apply to BA and then apply again. Give it two shots before you do any commercial flight training because then you are not able to apply. If that does not work out go modular and then do a bit of flight instructing. Why? well lets just say once you come off one of these integrated courses you can fly on instruments but really you cant fly for toffee. I learnt to fly flight instructing

good advice from Bex. I'd add the RAF into that process too, its not the one way ticket to a civil job that it once was, but you will get trained for free. Oh, there are the obvious downsides, but hell if the alternative is banqruptcy we are already talking desperate measure,LOL

Dear Buggington

At least you are seeking advice from the right people before making this decision. I commend you for that but your naivity is clear.

You are so young but I also completely empathise with your predicament.

Back in the early 1990s when I started training in earnest there were no jobs and perhaps, more importantly, no access to large sums of money.

I didn't really enjoy college or want to go to university either. I too had started a PPL and instead chose to find work that at least would pay for that and perhaps give me some social life whilst living at home.

Remember, at your age you should be enjoying yourself. Getting drunk, getting laid, having fun.

The advice on this thread is spot on.

I honestly believe that the best pilots I work with are those who have had some previous career or employment and with that bring skills, experience and maturity to the job.

One last thing. Do not assume that you would be able to live at home and work for ARL. The vast majority of cadets, with easyjet, are not at their "home" base and must rent some accommodation locally.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

In addition to what BoeingProp said consider how you are going to save for a deposit for a house seeing as the 100% mortgage is a thing of history nowadays, and how having such large loans may impact your credit rating, and therefore your ability to borrow for a mortgage or anything else that you might think you need (or just 'want'). If you don't believe me then go and talk to your parent's bank manager or an Independent Financial Advisor.

If you want to go to university then add about £50k to your planned borrowing.

If you really want to be a pilot think hard about it. It is a good job, but is a really tough career. If you really want to be a pilot do a good degree, join the UAS, fly a lot, get a great job away from aviation, consider getting a PPL, and flying a Pitts doing aeros at the weekend.

If you want to be a heavy machinery operator learn to drive an HGV and a JCB. You will not do quite so many early morning, and late nights, and you won't have stupid amounts of money crippling you for half your working life, and you can go and do loop-the-loops at the weekend. If you really want to be a pilot operating an A320 is not where it's at, chucking a light aerobatic aeroplane around the skies is.

If you are still committed to becoming a pilot in commercial aviation then get in touch with The Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators GAPAN - The Guild of Air Pilots & Air Navigators next year and try for a scholarship for a PPL. This is about the last organisation, apart from the military, who will give a fully funded course. As such it is very competitive, but if you get the course your CV will have a bit of gloss on it that will help you to get started.

Good luck with what ever you decide.

Regional flying doesn't necessarily mean props. You might want to be careful with your view that 'being a pilot' means Airbus or Boeing for Easy or BA, it is slightly narrow-minded and may cause offence whether it was intended or not. You haven't mentioned business aviation. Some hi-tech equipment being flown in that sector but not 'bus or Boeing.

And we earn twice as much!:ok:

SSSH, PP, we don't want these 18 year old rentapilot wannabees with 150 hours and daddy's money coming over to our side of the industry, the locos can keep them for as long as it lasts.

All it takes for this scam to end is a big hole in the Essex countryside. Sad though that through their own fault an FA with us makes more a day than these guys do in a week of 12 sectors a day.

As to the OP, if you have 150k to piss away on a hobby with a measly salary and no prospect of finding a second job after eJ gets rid of you for the next muppet in line, why don't you use that 150k and start a business instead.

We see hundreds of CV's of youngsters who after having completed their few hundred hours with the likes of eJ can't get another job for love or money, plenty in the industry won't touch you with a barge pole.

Dear Boggington,

In our company, which shall remain nameless, we operate with flexicrew for quite a few years now and at my base about 80% of the F/Os are flexi. I immediately realise when I fly with a "normal" F/O because he / she won't moan all day about his / her financial situation and is at work with 100% brain capacity. It is really nice for a change not to listen to endless whinging about one's dire situation with sub zero perspective for change. It happened, and I am not joking, that the purser of the following crew asked us if we had any crew sandwiches left for "her" poor flexi F/O because: "you know how lousy their pay is".
If you consider a career in aviation (yes, I had the same dream 27 years ago) use the Flexi / CTC way as the very last and extremely desperate resort. Cattle mustering in the outback of Australia in an old Super Cub is heaven compared to that!

cldrvr: "we don't want these 18 year old rentapilot wannabees with 150 hours and daddy's money coming over to our side of the industry".

Ouch.

Mungo: Good point. I have no doubt that I'm being narrow minded, but I hadn't thought of the business jet side of things. How would one even go about getting into the business jet part? I've received the FlightGlobal jobs email for ages and never seen anything about business jets in there.

Does sound more interesting than EasyJet, no matter what.

Purple pitot: What kind of salary range are we talking about here? :ok:

Obviously I can't reply to everyone here - I would be here forever, but just wanted to say thank you for helping someone so naive :ok: All of the advice has definitely given me something to think about over the next few days, and my time surfing around on PPRuNe has shown me that the industry really is screwed up.

Buggington. Unfortunately you were born in the wrong timeframe to become a well paid professional in the aviation industry. The sector is in the poo with no sign of any real recovery. There are thousands and thousands of pilots who trained before you who are out of work. I've bleated this so many times before, but if you want to fly, go to university get a good degree and earn a killing in some different industry. Then buy a share in a Pitts and then enjoy life. DO NOT hope to become a professional pilot. You have a 1% success rate. DO NOT listen to the flight schools, they only want your money. There is no career at the moment and you have a 99% chance of just blowing £100000. Anyone who tells you different is lying to you.

And just to qualify, i am not a wannabe, I have been a professional pilot with a full time job on several Boeing types for a good number of years now. I got lucky. You probably won't.

Finally, if you do decide to still go down the flying route, be honest to yourself and be fair to your sponsors. Let your parents read this thread.

Buggington; first forget about the biz jet jobs, a low experienced wannabe has NO CHANCE for that, unless he has very well connections / family!

But you are naive in your attitude, you think that thinks will be golden very fast, it will not be golden for a long long time, if ever again!

That is the first fact you need to come to terms with, the jobs DOES NOT pay anything close to what you can imagine, even when you have experience!

Sure for some, who have been in the business for long time, but these golden times have come and gone!

However I have to admit, I do know of many guys who got jobs last year (2012) - so some of the negativeness is not completely true.
The odds of getting a good career, probably 10%!

I would for sure look into BA and RAF as primary options, if not made this, take a long hard wait and think, because we are talking about some serious amount of money! £100.000! Is not small change!

But of course many todays "youth" can not fathom these kind of amounts - thats why first you should try and live one year without mummy and daddy, just to see how the real life is, so you do learn the value of money, and how hard it is to come by!

It is easy to spend when you have it, but when you don't, and you risk loosing it all, well you can not understand what this will mean, because you are feeling comfort that mummy and daddy will fit the bill for you!

I know one guy who joined EZY on one of these SCAMS, and he told me he was sent around like cattle, from place to place, he hardly NEVER stayed at his base!
People will tell you, DON'T DO IT, and you will STILL DO IT, and in 18 -24 months you will be crying and complaining why there are no well paid jobs for you! In 36 - 48 months the banks will approach your parents to re-possess their house, unless they pay your debts!

You will look desperately for a job, but by now your licences/ratings have expired, you do not have £3000 - £4000 needed to keep them valid! So the only job you can apply for his minimum wage jobs!
This is a very plausible scenario!

And of course, you will not listen or believe anybody giving advice on these forums, but just go ahead and do it anyway, because everybody here are dumb, and not as smart and special as you are! Hmmmm Good luck!:ugh:

First let me say WELL DONE and i really mean that. You have gone to the flight schools and sought a second opinion. Yes you have little knowledge about the industry but you have sought to get a balanced view. A very responsible course of action. As has been said sit down and have a think. Read through the flight school stuff and these forums with the folks and decide what you want to do. It all comes down to a risk analysis.

BRAN Benefit of the option you choose, Risk of the option you choose, an analysis of other options and what if you do nothing for the moment?

I have been in your shoes although I was older and had a previous career. Would I stump up 100K today. NO. Would I join the RAF or apply to BA for a few years? Yes.

The choice is yours, good luck in whatever you decide is right for both you and your family

BALPA | How To Become A Pilot

Buggington.

If you have not already read this pamphlet made by BALPA, it might be a good idea do do it now.

Realize that getting a job after the "flexicrew" scam is completed is slim, and that luck, not skill will be the deciding factor in whether you are among the very few that will get a decent job.

I'm not here to offer any sort of informed opinion on the aviation industry, as I am a wannabe myself. I just want to say that Buggington is far from naive, especially for a 17 year old.

He has done far more research into becoming a pilot than nearly anyone who I've met at open days, flight schools and even CTC interview days. He clearly has his head screwed on and should be commended for that, not patronised. He has come to the right place to get info and is carrying out due diligence.

My only advice would be to take things slow and enjoy your life a bit first. You may always regret not living life to the full and seeing the world when you're young. 100k is enough to mean that you won't be enjoying life for quite a long period of time, you will be living to pay bills and that ain't fun. If Uni isn't your thing, don't sweat it, get a factory job, these are well paid and will help you to finance your training whilst allowing you to enjoy your teens and travel a bit. These experiences will help you mature as a person and stand to you in interviews.

G.S. Willy: Thanks - I've got "So you want to be a pilot" from GAPAN. I've gotta say, if by this point I haven't worked out that the Flexicrew thing is bad and that I probably wouldn't get a job, I shouldn't be a pilot.

Just out of interest, how long has Flexicrew been around? Is it just since the downturn of 2007/8?

Bex & Nabanoba: Thanks for the support there :D I've been talking to my parents, and they seem to be in less of a rush than me. They're also following this thread, and are also slightly shocked at what they've read. It's a stark contrast to anything OAA or CTC have said. Hopefully, given my current college and work situation I should be able to defer any decision until about December, so there's a lot of time to think about things and doing research.

Truck: I looked into the RAF, but unfortunately I have four eyes (glasses), so that's out. :sad: Also, I don't think I'm special. I realise I am not particularly lucky (try me with a coin toss - odds are I'll lose. My sister always wins. Go figure.) or smart. I have paid attention to what's on this thread. I would have to be a complete and utter idiot to totally ignore what's written on here.

Gorter: As I've already mentioned, my parents are also following this thread, and know the same amount as me now. It might not be much, but it's more than I knew this time last week. It sucks that I was born this late, but there's nothing much I can do. Time travel perhaps?

That said, if time travel existed, we probably wouldn't need pilots after all.

Bug,

I have been flying for over 35 years and don't regret it as a career choice, I get to meet some fabulous people, seen most of the world and still enjoy the actual flying.

I have been through all the downturns and seen all the changes in our industry, some for the better, some for the worse.

Flying itself is fabulous, and I am lucky that our side of the industry still enjoys good T&C's, ours have gotten better over the years, while the airline side has gone down.

This downturn in the terms and conditions was in part caused by the crisis in 08, but it has accelerated by the inflow of P2F candidates, now the airlines are very comfortable in using that scam to help their bottom line.

This does not mean that it is the only route into aviation, it has however to many with a bit of money the appearance of the easiest and quickest.

Taken aside the fact that you will end up with a huge debt that will take you 15-20 years to pay back, on a salary that has been significantly reduced, you also run the very high risk that after your first stint as flexi crew you become unemployable.

There are still so many other ways into aviation beside the CTC scheme and the likes, however it has become more and more of a struggle to make it as a career choice.

Going what many here call Modular is far cheaper and carries a far smaller risk of ending up as a failure. The US route is still available to get experience as a flight instructor, as is working at a club here in the UK, then move into Turboprops or regional airliners and work your way up to the airlines, you may actually find along the way that the airlines are not for you, it wasn't a career path I ever contemplated.

Keep asking around, just don't go jumping in at the deep end right away.

I would say at your age, Bug, listen to the advice of cldrvr!

You will not regret it, believe me! Go modular, take your time, FIC, maybe even go and instruct in US or UK, there are jobs available this route, it might take time, but the secret is not what you know, it is who you know!

Going CTC / OAA, today unless the BA program is hopeless!

In 1992, when I was intending to go commercial, I also wore glasses, I was outside my CAA's requirement, +/- 3, and my only option was to go to US and gain experience, and hope they would give me medical based on this!
15 years later, the requirements had changed, now they are +/- 5, and I was suddenly within requirements, and I got my class 1 medical, it just shows, patience does work!

I got my first aviation job last year, at the age of 43, so it does work!

The money you will spend with CTC, will not give you any guarantees of anything, it is very likely that you will still need to pay for a TR at a later stage, so that amount you expect will rise, and unless your parents have unlimited funds, so will your needs.
With CTC / OAA expect at least to spend £120.000 - £150.000 - incl. TR, living expenses and maintaining your licence!

Modular you will by unlucky if you spend half of the £120.000, probably close to £40.000, than FIC - working getting experience / contacts - and if lucky you might not even need to pay for your TR!

At your age, why the heck is your main ambition to get into Airbus or Boeing first, when you arrive there, flying will be much less fun than it will be if you follow this route as suggested!

The thing, you can also work during the time you train, so your debts will be much less!

Just as another anecdote, with the demise of bmibaby last year, (the failure of an airline is not an unfamiliar story these days), experienced pilots in the LHS, with 10000+ hours, aged 50+, are now back in the RHS doing the job you aspire to do aged 19(?) having finished your ATPL training.

That is career progression for you in this industry.

So plan for a possible 30 years climbing the ladder only to find yourself back at the bottom of it again at least once when you calculate the NPV of your future earnings to see if it justifies your chosen career path.

:sad:

SR71 has a very valid point. If by misfortune you find yourself redundant at some point in your career it can be almost impossible to get back into the industry. P2F has created this ridiculous system where a experienced pilot can get dumped out of the system and then is unable to get a job because some airlines want cadets to sit in the RHS touching nothing for six months before the next lot come in. This could easily be you. Friends of mine have 500 hrs on type but now can't go in as a cadet but don't have enough hours for the small number of DEP positions.

Absolutely agree. Only been flying commercially a few years despite chasing the dream for a decade. All that frustration and pain before finding a paid flying job... I now realise, it had it's purpose in life whilst allowing me to develop skills I may need one day when my airline employer goes to dust.

Proper career's are protected by fair-minded senior staff with backbone, sometimes industry regulators and very often lobby groups. They guarantee those with experience; the most to lose and the least to gain from unemployment, the right to further employability. This is, therefore, no longer a career in my eyes and I long for a part time opportunity where I can satisfy the aviation bug in me whilst being in the comfort of knowing that my second source of income will never let me down.

I don't think there is a typical starting salary anymore!

Back in 2005, my first year salary as a 200h cadet FO on Boeing was £29K basic plus flight pay and pension, in full time permanent employment. Year 2 became 39K basic, Year 3 - £41K. Change of operator and as SFO, basic increased to £52K plus decent pension contributions, etc. My P60s floated between £62-£70K.

Since 2011 I've been laid off twice (both airlines still exist, they just like to save bucks). The best deal going for me in the UK at the moment is 27 weeks temporary summer contract work worth £26K gross (I'm lucky to get this position). Out of this has to come many costs... accountant fees, national insurance for employer(!) and employee, commuting, temporary digs. No pension, no job security. No choice left but to follow in the footsteps of many of my previous co-workers and leave the UK - or leave the industry.

And then we read on here EZY will take on 400+ pilots next year, sorry - Flexicrew cadets each earning £6,000 over 6 months. Well you can be rostered 1,000 duty hours over those months, so I would say £6 an hour is a typical Jet FO starting pay here in the UK right now. :}

As an ex flexi pilot all I can say is avoid it like the plague! Seriously do not consider it, do not try and rationalise it, justify it, reason with it or convince yourself its a way to get in. Just say NO! I can give you cold hard numbers on just how much I got working for ezy and how much I physically had to pay. It isn't nice reading and I can assure you a lot of other guys can say the same.

You're 17. Do what I was doing at 17 and enjoy yourself, drink the white lightning in the park and chase the skirt. Do this while you have no responsibility or £100k loans to repay. We all understand the enthusiasm but theres no need to waste your youth chasing white elephants. I was 26 when I first jumped in a da20 and 29 when I strapped an airbus to my ass. It may have been a long wait but I appreciated every minute of training, something my younger colleagues didn't. Work, save and hope for the industry to recover and pray flexi crew can become a thing of the past. 17 year olds jumping at the chance to be a flexi pilot will not do you any long term favours.

I would suggest against uni nowadays as thats just as expensive. But thats just my own opinion.

Good luck and don't rush!

Edited for crap grammar.

Buddington
 

Hi,

I'm a tiny bit older than you Buddington (21) I am married with a young child and have long had the bug for aviation. At 11 years old I was at my local airfield (GA) cutting the clubhouse grass, cleaning the windows, vacuuming, making tea for instructors, cleaning out aircraft and was able to, at times, retrieve weather updates (met office) and if I was there early enough was able to taxi piper PA-38's from the hangar to be fueled and then to the club house grass area. Very exciting for a 11 year old and of course was taken flying, by many members flying for fun!

I had two flying lessons at 14 years old, but sadly had to stop due to my parents not being able to afford the £110 per hour. I finished school and worked as a junior admin throughout summer and during my first year of college I dropped out and worked for my dad as a finance assistant whilst still working as a junior admin.

Met my wife at 16, engaged at 18, married at 19, father at 20 and very happy! I supported her through university and she finished last year... Now its my turn and I am going to do my degree this september. Why am I telling you all this? Well....

I too was in your position, around a similar age to you and had been brainwashed by the big FTO's proclaiming that their placement record would have you in a job asap, if not immediately! But like you I decided to do more research and (thank God for pprune) found all I needed to know about the nitty gritty of this glorious industry, from this website! I still want and can only see my self flying for a living, because having flown a few times and getting the bug it never fades...but that does not mean you can't be wise about how to reach your dream.

Which takes me to my 60k degree which is not 60k, but infact £5700 for two years and I think £2700 for the third year (Don't quote me but it is close to that)! Do the maths! Not bad at all and at the end of it I will have a BA hons in Education. Great back up for when the flight training is complete and wait...wait.... here is my secret. After applying to student finance they told me (not literally but on the breakdown) that I would be taking just shy of £12,500 a year for the first two years straight into my bank! £6400 (for the two years) of which I have to pay back on top of my student tuition fee!!!

So over two years saving just shy of £25,000 towards flight training, with at the end an overall debt around £21,000ish. My course only requires me to be in one day a week for two years (only six saturdays in the final year). So I will be working two days in the office and around 4-5 night shifts on top to save. My wife has been offered a great job and is going to help some of the bills I pay while I save the rest for my flying! I will be taking it slowly, enjoying my flight training while enjoying life, gaining a degree which provides an excellent plan B should all airlines 'slam the door on me' and best of all leaves me with a flight training debt balance after 3ish years of £0.00

You have done the right thing asking for guidance here and trust me, being a debt free pilot (minus a student loan which does not require re-payment immediately after) with a degree under your belt will deffinately help when you join the hundreds, if not thousands of hopefuls looking for that first job (and I am not talking the airlines, frieight or business). Love flying for flying. Take your time. Be smart. A degree is certainly a smart move. It does not have to be aviation related although that may help...

My advice would be complete the degree, if you don't like the size of the tuition fees...find a cheaper university/college. I am not a proffessional pilot, nor am I close, but I will get there. If you love flying don't let anyone sway you from pursuing this career, but at the same time look at risks involved i.e high chance of redundancy at least once in career, away from family and friends, 'shift work', the economy etc(numerous more)...

If you have a passion for FLYING and are willing to put in an enormous amount hard work and studying you'll get there and will hopefully love your job. Just be wise.

(P.S pm me if you want any info about university and saving and doing your training the modular route)

BemaR:

"Met my wife at 16, engaged at 18, married at 19, father at 20 and very happy!"

First of all, I'm impressed at how fast you managed all those things! Congratulations :)

It does sound as though you were in a similar position to me - and yes, thank god for this forum, because otherwise I would probably have believed 90% of what the FTO's have been saying (let's face it, who wouldn't trust those infographics? :})

I'm getting a little stuck trying to add up your university fees - for the course I might do (three years, Aerospace Engineering at Kingston or Hertfordshire) it costs £9000 a year. Obviously this adds up to £27k for the three years, plus around £10k a year for living costs. £57k, so near enough £60k.

How did you manage the £12.5k degree?!

Truth be told (I can't remember if I've mentioned this before in this thread) I'm not all that interested in going to university. I haven't ruled out doing a degree at some stage in my life, but I would rather avoid going to Uni if I can. The only reason I'm considering it is as a backup plan, in case the industry manages to get worse and I am at some point right out of the industry.

It is looking like I'm going to have to wait for a while. Like many people have told me, I suppose there is no rush.

I would have to try to find something to fill the gap between college and flying though - that could be fun :uhoh:

Sprinkles:

Sorry for not noticing any of the previous responses for a while - I got sidetracked and it was only BemaR's notification that made me remember this thread.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you get out of the Flexicrew situation? What are you doing now? Obviously I'd rather not be in it, but there might be some useful advice I can get from it :ok:

It's worth noting that I am definitely not jumping at the chance to be a Flexicrew pilot. Pilot, yes. Flexicrew, hell no. :cool:

Hi Buddington
 

Buddington:

Thanks for the congrats :)

Ahhh i see. Well I was looking at a degree in aeronautical engineering, but like you pointed out the fees and potential debt is staggering! I also looked at my plan C option, which had fees that matched your degree, infact here is a breakdown of the plans i went through:

• Plan A - Intergrated Flight Training...loan and job prospect made me look at Plan B,
• Plan B - Aeronautical Engineering degree, but fees and not having the ability to work and save for modular training due to complex timetable made me move to Plan C,
• Plan C - Education degree with the ability to do a PGCE....but again the fees and the timetable would have made it difficult to save for my modular training and the debt matched Plan B, so i looked at Plan D
• Plan D (plan which works for me) Education degree completed at a college where the fees are £5,700 for 2years (foundation degree)and the top up year which makes it a full Education degree (BA Hons) is i 'think' £2700, because it is classed as part-time and you can only get student finance for the tuition fees!
Year 1 and 2 is only one day a week, which is friday, which also allows me to work the crazy amount of shifts I do, save and pay my bills, aswell as pocket all that uni money :E I think the total debt i will be in, along with a maintenance loan is around 21-22k...not bad.

I haven't started my degree yet or flight training, that all starts in september :} but it works for me. If you are not interested in doing any other degree other than an aeronautical degree, my way may not work. Alot of people on this website will say the degree is not necessary to get a flying job ( which is true ) but it certainly helps if you can't get one and in my case to help pay for my training!!!

Look at the entire picture to make a wise decision. It is not impossible. Its only impossible if you stop working towards your goal! :ok: