In the opinion of my peer group and fortunately of my airline it clearly shows extremely poor risk evaluation and very poor judgement. In fact any pilot doing it is deemed unemployable and a complaint to the relevant authority will be made. Someone who cannot correctly evaluate the financial risk of buying linetraining with a shadowy third tier carrier cannot be trusted with an aircraft, its crew and paying passengers.

Gear & flap will kill you, everything else will embarase you.

it is near imposiible for any pilot to make it to line if they are not of the highest quality and order. I stand to be corrected on that statement.

Lion Air Flight 8987, a McDonnell Douglas MD-82, crashed after landing at Juanda International Airport. Reverse thrust was used during landing, although the left thrust reverser was stated to be out of service. This caused the aircraft to veer to the right and skid off the runway, coming to rest about 7,000 feet (2,100 m) from the approach end of the runway. No-one was killed but the aircraft was badly damaged.

Lion Air Flight 792, a Boeing 737-400, landed with an incorrect flap configuration and was not aligned with the runway. The plane landed hard and skidded along the runway causing the right main landing gear to detach, the left gear to protrude through the wing and some of the aircraft fuselage to be wrinkled. No one was killed and the aircraft was written off.

Lion Air Flight 712, a Boeing 737-400 (registration PK-LIQ) overran the runway on landing at Supadio Airport, Pontianak, coming to rest on its belly and sustaining damage to its nose gear. All 174 passengers and crew evacuated by the emergency slides, with few injuries reported.

Adam Air Flight 782, registration number PK-KKE, lost navigational and communications systems twenty minutes into a flight from Jakarta to Makassar, Sulawesi. The plane was subsequently flown into a radar "black spot" and was lost for several hours, eventually making an emergency landing at Tambolaka Airport, Sumba (on a different island 481 km away from their intended destination, and southeast from their origin, instead of northeast). The pilot in that incident was fired. Adam Air broke multiple safety regulations, including removing an aircraft before it was due for inspection by aviation authorities.


On January 1, 2007, air traffic controllers lost contact with flight 574 en route from Surabaya (SUB) to Manado (MDC). The aircraft, a Boeing 737-400 with the registration PK-KKW, had 96 passengers and 6 crew. On January 10, parts of the aircraft's tail stabilizer were found 300m offshore.
The flight recorders and suspected debris were located, but were not initially recovered due to a dispute between Adam Air and the Indonesian Government over who should pay recovery costs.[11] Both recorders were retrieved after Adam Air agreed to pay for 7 days worth of searching. A 2009 episode of Mayday (Air Crash Investigation, Air Emergency) about Flight 574 stated that the official crash report had concluded the Inertial Reference System (IRS) had failed. This failure, which should not by itself have brought the plane down, caused the pilots to become preoccupied with trying to fix it. After changing the IRS from "Navigate" mode to "Attitude" mode, the pilots failed to manually fly the plane while the computer system recalibrated, a procedure that takes about 30 seconds. The failure to maintain straight and level flight during the recalibration caused the autopilot to completely disengage and cease compensating for the plane's tendency to roll to the right, which caused the nose of the plane to dip. In attempting to correct the pitch of the aircraft before levelling the wings, the pilot sent the aircraft into an unrecoverable downward spiral, leading to the plane suffering massive structural failure as it descended at near the speed of sound.


On February 21, 2007 Flight 172, an Adam Air Boeing 737-300 aircraft flying from Jakarta to Surabaya with registration PK-KKV, had a hard landing at Juanda International Airport. The incident caused the fuselage of the plane to crack and bend at the middle, with the tail of the plane drooping towards the ground. There were no reports of serious injuries from the incident. Subsequent flights to the airport were diverted to alternate airports. As a result, six Adam Air 737s were grounded awaiting safety checks, but five of these were then put back in regular service. Adam Air described this as "harsh punishment" for an accident it blamed on poor weather conditions, but Vice President Jusuf Kalla has said that all Boeing 737-300s should be checked.


On March 10, 2008, an Adam Air Boeing 737-400 aircraft flying from Jakarta to Batam skidded 75 metres off the end of the runway while landing in Batam. All passengers survived, with two passengers treated for shock. The plane sustained damage to one wing.[14][15] This accident contributed to the airline's demise, just eight days later, and the formal revocation of its AOC two months later. The incident also illustrated that crew were not trained correctly on evacuation procedures. In particular during the evacuation of this aircraft no slides were deployed to get the passengers off the aircraft.


Consider yourself corrected.

Maybe the airline industry is finally realizing that 200 hrs dual in a Cessna, plus a 10 session type rating, followed by three thousand hours following a magenta line, is not the experience what they were looking for in the first place.

A321,
If you cant get invited with that experience then it may be time to look elsewhere than your city airline...
Have you applied to Asian carriers?

@ Sloppy Joe

very nice long list of P2F accidents, thank you for taking the time to do that.

I can only talk speak from airlines that I have worked for and the standard is very high, if the TRE at Lion/Adam air is just letting pilots go on line willy nilly then of course this is a bad idea.

on the flip side of the coin you could argue that there have been a few experinced pilots whom have made just as bad mistakes, look at AF447

Not P2F accidents just an insight into that part of the world and the quality of some of the pilots showing that you don't have to be good to get into a front seat.

AF447 there was alomst 20,000 hours flight experince between the 3 crew

I am guilty of working in Asia when I was building my career, but the standard was always very high, so I am guessing things have changed.

very bad news that the TRE's are not taking there jobs seriously in that part of the world. makes me angry when the rest of us have to keep such a high standard to stay in our jobs. not that there is anything wrong with keeping a high standard.

POS_INT

You don't understand it though do you.......?

You're not going to keep your job at all if people like you, or anyone else, pays to fly commercial aircraft around the sky with passengers in the back. When you do that, its not a job, its a hobby. By all means, take your hobby seriously, but just change your hobby from paying to fly jets around the sky!

Jeez, airline management saw you coming didn't they........ :rolleyes:

last time I checked I was paid to fly the aircraft not the other way round, anyway enough about me, thats not whats being disscused here.

listen up, there is nothing wrong with pilots buying in to airlines, what is the big problem for you?

these chaps need the experince, and if you actually went out and networked with these guys you would have a better understanding of it.

you are one of these gready pilots that only cares about himself, and wants no one else to enter the inner circle of commercial airlines. well the world does not revolve around you my freind and you need to learn that things wont always go your way :D you need to encourage and support EVERYONE in aviation, whats being said here is quite childish.

the line training that does take place is such a small number it does not affect anything! there are no notices going up around major airlines saying pay has been dropped due to 3 or 4 pilots under taking line training come man!!

Decision making
 

It's indicative of the aviation industry that experience is over looked for cheap labour whilst at the same time safety groups are bemoaning the lack of handling skills and experience in the cockpit.

One aspect that causes me increasing concern is the character of pilots taking such debilitating terms and conditions. Commercial pressures are always going to seep down the line and be applied to flightcrew. It's our responsibility to be the last line of defence between the pressure and temptation operations departments are subject to and the safe execution of the flight. Operations departments have their pressures; we have ours. I have reservations about the motivation and ability of the P2F pilot to stand up to such pressure. They've already capitulated and would economically be in a vulnerable position. The astronomical levels of investment are creating a docile flight deck increasingly unable to withstand commercial pressure. I can only see this situation deteriorating as P2F flightcrew move up the ranks.

One of the basic tenants of the air operator structure is the isolation of the flight crew from anything but safety concerns. Whilst we all experience varying shades of grey in our work and there is certainly room for 'commercial airmanship' where we do all we can to assist the profitability of our employer within the bounds of safety; there will be times when we get isolated and have to make critical safety decisions.

I hope I have conveyed myself correctly. I don't judge pilots who pay to fly - maybe you've hit the ceiling with 5000 hours of TP and can't make the jump to a more sustainable career path; maybe you're fresh out of school and your aspirations are clouding the council of experienced pilots. Whichever it is, the financial debt entailed in P2F doesn't bode well for being the last line of safety.

To the OP, best of luck.

Can't blame the airline for the P2F schemes. It puts more money in the bank for the company and bonuses for the executives. However their greed is clouded by the importance of the safety of operation. 2 fully qualified crewmembers in the front. Not the Captain who is becoming a baby sitter and the wannabe in the right seat who'se along for the ride.

P2F schemes undermines the ethics of our industry. P2F schemes undermines safety of operation. P2F schemes continue to lower the bar. P2F schemes erodes respect and integrity.

I'm all for training bonds. Pilot does not complete his/her obligation, then a prorated amount is paid to the company. No repayment? No release of records to next carrier.

Bottom line, IMO, there is no place for P2Fers in our industry.

Well, the company I WORK for refuses to hire anybody with a P2F history:ok:
Bad decisionmaking, lack of long-term view and maturity and a simple disregard for the value and responsability of being an Airline pilot are but some of the reasons why.:D:D

Icelanta

makes sense :rolleyes:... "real pilots" are given jobs because of their Top Gun quality... fake pilots just pay with their credit card and are instantly put on the line with a baby sitter...

:ugh:

P2F is becoming more and more the normal way how to get in to this industry. It is not a shortcut like a lot of people seems to be thinking.

Yes it is ruining the chances for us established pilots to find employment but we what have to be real about it. The conditions I got hired under is something the young pilots at my local flying club can only dream of. They have no TR, no time on time, no experience. Even a personal recommendation would not help them. They are just an expense for the company. So I don't blame pilots who do P2F programs. How else are they gonna get the experience?

There are just to many pilots out there looking for a job :sad:

Wesker seems to think I'll bet all the P2Fers will agree with you. And I'll bet the majority of us who ascended through the ranks via normal professional prgression would disagree with you.

Wesler, your opinion is an insult to all PROFESSIONAL Flightcrew Worldwide :mad:

P2F pilots should be banished from the flightdeck, Captains should refuse to operate with a paying passenger in the First Officer seat, and airlines should be blacklisted.

I totally agree with you. In my opinion P2F should be banned by changes in ICAO/local regulations. Simple as that. No self sponsored training with paying passengers on board and no flying without normal salary. Much more strict regulations on the use of contract workers would also be welcomed...

:ok:

wesker
 

:mad: Stay in your Ivory-Tower. You must be "blind" and quixotic.
Pray to g0d or someone else that you will never have to earn your money as just a "contract-pilot".
Maybe - no - for shure - you are too $tupid to realize, but working as a contract-pilots is in very seldom cases your own choice, but an urgent must to survive and to buy food for family and kids. And believe me and be aware that almost all of the contract-pilots had a good and a stable job before - maybe like you have at this moment - . But they were victims of e.g. incomepetent airline "managers", the downturn and economical crisis and also P2F pilots, who fill any seat, for less money.

Never saw such an arrogant,naughty statement ever in all my life.

I do not appologize for getting personal - and for shure I did not understand you statement wrong, because it was really very clear to me,:mad:

I am so angry about our post, and although I have a very good education I could not resist to do this post.
Feel a$.hame WESKER :\

:ugh:Guys come on lets get real here! your letting your frustration colour your perceptions on P2F

Just beacuase someone has been on a P2F scheme doesnt instantly make them a bad pilot.

take yourself, if you were forced to P2F for whatever reason would you instantly brand yourself as someone who cannot fly?

if you are accepted for a P2F scheme it is no different to a new pilot comming in from other avenues ie instructing etc.

so you are wrong to say that P2F pilots are bad pilots, there are some that could be even better than you! :D

I say we all encourage saftey in aviation! no matter how you got there! conflicts of interest on how you got to where you are today have no place in the cockpit

I don't believe the issue about contract pilots is that they are not as able pilots, it is more about the forever degrading condition, which have been seen over the industry, and those jobs the P2F brigade are dreaming of after they finish their P2F, they are not there anymore! As there are loads of guys who have NOT done P2F, with more experience, and still not getting a look in at the good jobs, so think about that, before you let yourself into more debts!

It's tempting but also very counter - productive!

the P2F thing has now got momentum, its got legs . it will not stop until 150++ innocent people eventually die a horrible death due to the actions of a P2F 'pilot'..then the media will have a field day on the whole P2F rubbish . then the regulators will finally be forced to do something.

sad but imho true.:mad:

Camel:
Again, that is not the real issue, nobody is saying that P2F pilot's are less able pilots! Some might be, but that for me is not a very strong argument against P2F!
Than again, I guess making arguments is not always about being smart! :ugh:

Airbus a321

eh...

:D

You are right. Contract work sucks. People need real and stable employment to be able to live a normal life. That's why I think the use of contract workers should be much more limited. At the moment the airlines are abusing the system and avoiding hiring anyone permanently at all cost.

so you reckon paying the likes of eJ or FR 100k and giving up 30k a year in salary is acceptable to do a bit of hobby flying untill they find a cheaper bunch to replace you with?

The beancounters at the locos love guys like you, pay them to fly and train with pax on board and give up 30% in pay to do so, an accountants wet dream.

There are hundreds of posts on these forums of LHS drivers complaining how crap and incompetent the P2F bunch are, but of course you can't see that, you are the problem, not part of the solution.

there is hardly any P2F out there anyways, what are we all worried about.

I am supportive of P2F as it creates extra work and reveune streams for TRI/TRE which is good for me

POS_INT needs to get his head out of the sand and do his homework. Lion Air with the assistance of Falcon Aviation and Eagle Aviation have been a major supplier of P2Fers.

There's always work for reputable TRIs and TREs at reputable carriers.

"reveune streams for TRI/TRE which is good for me" - POS_INT

Yes the truth out of the bag, it's all about me, me and me! :ugh:

The one day, they will not need TRI/TRE, as they will have drone pilot sitting in an office in India on minimum pay!

When it comes to DEC with a sizeable carrier, the company will have an agreement with its pilots' association or union to protect the futures of its own first officers. This is usually achieved by setting the bar quite high for DEC, type rated may require double the hours a senior FO would need to upgrade and non-type rated will require even more as they are getting a type rating and will possibly be bonded too.

The same way we all did when jobs were "hard" to find, get off your arse, your computer, and go and find one!

here's one way you could solve the problem. This industry tolerates an awful lot of people who aren't really very good at their jobs. Some TRE's and flight schools are very reluctant to fail people for poor performance. What should happen is that the crap ones fail, get some retraining, and if they fail again they are out. What actually happens is that everyone turns a blind eye! If the standard was raised and a few people moved on, the best of the newbies would have jobs to move into. At the moment there will be some exceptional new pilots out there who are totally unable to commence their careers and that is bad for the industry.

Hopelessly out of touch most of you. The choices for those entering this industry who want to fly for an airline are:

1.) To get raped by Big School Inc by paying €85,000 (€120,000+ after interest) for ab-initio training and then through the Big School Inc connections hopefully get a job (most do)

2.) Go modular paying in the region of €40-50,000 and then SSTR + hours

Option 1 doesn't work for those with family/financial commitments because they can't train part time or can't provide the loan security.

Option 2 exists to make it a level playing field as those who go for Option 1 get first shot at most job opportunities with the big airlines.

And I second the comment above. This industry is full of talentless super-ego maniacs who are only in their position because of nepotism or connections. This is as big a cancer in aviation so don't talk about P2Fers not "deserving a flying job"! Most P2F guys have endured years of suffering before making the move. It's not as black and white as you might think. To let opportunity after opportunity go and see the situation get worse and to not have a single interview opportunity for almost 4 years after graduating results in drastic and desperate measures.

We're not all spoilt little brats with daddy's cash to spend. This is a fantasy that those of you who can't afford to P2F would love to believe. I, like most committed pilots worked my ass off to get to where I am and the only way that was possible was to do something someone else wasn't prepared to do. That is the reality of life my friends and this is coming from someone who used to lecture others about the evils of P2F.

And now you will be lectured and indeed spat on by those who do care for this profession and who manage to look further than their own nose.
"superpilot" you are not. change your name into SuperSpender, Supercheater or Superidiot. it is way more appropriate.
Out of touch?! Grow some brain, but I should really not blame you, I should blame the flight academies that nowadays accept any fool to become an Airline pilot without the traditional hard selection phases:mad: That is the cause why we have so many unfit miscreants flooding the market:ugh::ugh::mad:

I wholly agree with Superpilot and I think P2F is very unfortunate for all involved but it is a fact of life now and the only way into the industry for many.

Not an airline pilot myself, (just about to start work offshore RW after the mil) but I have many friends who are in airlines. I found it gobsmacking how many of my buddies colleagues could not get any flying work after their IR and I find it hard to blame any of them for trying their best to get on in a terminally depressed market. In their shoes, I am sure I would do exactly the same.

I only hope the RW world does not go down the same P2F model as FW, although the perceived relative lack of glamour probably serves to deter the majority from offshore etc....

I think what some fail to understand here, management in various companies are using P2F - as part of their income revenue, when planning their companies business budget/structure!

This means X amounts of jobs that would normally be available for FO's, are no longer available, as they are no longer jobs!

So if there in 2013 as an example was 1000 pilot jobs available, maybe of these there would be 100 new jobs due to retirement/medical failures etc., so all of US would be applying for those 100 jobs, however now with P2F, 20 of those jobs are no longer available, as these are going to P2F!

This means there are only 80 jobs left, so few jobs, the ones who did P2F, will stop at 500 hours / 300 hours, the ones in job will be getting more hours, but there will be fewer jobs to apply for, unless you want to keep paying, but that is not work anymore!

Found on job ad for Korean Airlines:
:eek: Is this the ultimate example of P2F?

We should go back to state schools, increasing the difficulty level of the ATPL theory, getting rid of this ridiculous question bank, and most of all, introduce a good selection before admission with aso called numerus clausus. Decimate the intake of ab initio students and you will see terms and conditions increase.

Perhaps a closer look at the Kos incident again is in order, as to me this really did demonstrate the wider issues somewhat succinctly.

What would have happened if the LHS had become incapacitated?

It is a scary thought.

Icelanta, learn some manners my friend. Before I could pay to fly, I had to work (hard) in another industry to earn because the money didn't come from thin air. Neither you or I invented the rules. I couldn't beat the idiots so I had to join them. The difference is I'm man enough to admit it. An unfortunate means to an end. Darwinism and all that.