I'm not sure it is a p@£sing contest ftg.
Flybe are blaming all their woes on APD, from what I've read so far in this thread people are merely pointing out that the exorbitant fares Flybe charge on some routes mentioned should be well able to absorb the APD and still make money. I position frequently on them, and do raise my eyebrows at times when an hours flight is £180 each way. Perhaps the management should look in the mirror more closely.
I hope it's just a scare tactic and everyone is OK, though from Mrs ETOPS experience it may well be for real. All the best to everyone, as usual the staff who do a decent job day in day out are the easy management target.

Never trusted the little weasel, ever since he met me smiling at the steps,when I had just brought in one of the first Jets of our Company into to operate a service out of Leeds.JF was in charge of sales there,and welcomed me with open arms,to bring a faster service to Scotland and N Ireland.However we never got the seats filled,and a plot was uncovered where the Flights were assumed full by the Computer,when there were still plenty of seats,which had been effected by an Employee-apparently the one in charge!!.Our Competitor was Jersey European,which was a brother Airline as we trained their Pilots and I had always assumed a very friendly business cooperation.They did not operate a Jet then,but Jack Walker had a spy/saboteur in our ranks,who allowed the JEA F27s to pick up pax otherwise destined for our shiny new Jets.This said employee resigned before he should have been sacked,and surprise surprise went quickly to work for JEA in a more exulted position.JEA duly got their own Jets and our Excellent work environment Airline was first half sold shares to the Dutch,then taken over by them,and gone!!!!JEA became Flybe and said ratbag became its master.Say no more:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

The redundancies are indeed real - I know of three people affected directly.

I'm talking about a different person to FASToat though - it's not JF that I was referring to.

The points being raised are very sensible though. If the prices, flight times and reliability are unattractive to customers, then it's part of the reason why the business is failing which will ultimately be to the detriment of all of those who work there.

I count myself lucky I had my interview cancelled by FlyBe back in August (market forces they said), I was forced to spread my search wider and have since moved on to a better paid operation.

I have friends who started within a year or so, is it last in first out?

well, that's what I'm saying - this post isn't about why flybe are not doing well but those affected.
I don't think companies can do last in first out anymore, you have to have point scoring system with stuff like sim checks, sick days etc.

on the plus side I see flydubai taking non TR folks , with experience of 10T or greater - could be ideal for those wishing to make the move to a useful type. Albeit not in the UK

I thought LIFO was not allowed any more under employment law. Is it not a meritocracy? So sickness, disciplinary, training etc can all be taken into account.

Having been in the same position as the Flybe guys (and girls) I feel for you. Best of luck.

A4

You will find that the points system that is used will be so heavily weighted towards length of service that it will effectively be LIFO.

Looking in thats what you would think but BALPA will get involved and they love seniority even if it means 4 people have to go instead of 2.

Someone told me at work today that Flybe are over crewed by 40 Captains in Manchester. Sounds a hellva lot could understand a couple but 40 seems very high.

No it isn't 40 captains, it's 40 pilots.

I would imagine that many of the guys on hearing this news will be brushing up CVs and firing out applications like theres no tomorrow. If many find places to go there might not be any need for redundancies at all!

I've noticed this advert for a non type rated 737 operator full time contract on the Thomson recruiting thread if anyone's seen it?

Non type rated 737NG Low hour first officers with C & M Recruitment Ltd | 465079

Having been through this process myself, twice in the last few years ! I have a genuine concern that fly be are making the same mistake a few other companies that are no longer with us made. That is , if we cut a few aircraft a few routes a few pilots a few cabin crew a few engineers and a few office staff the company will suddenly become profitable. This knee jerk cutting in search of a core business that is profitable virtually never works especially if the company has underlying business problems, which reading other posts may be the case.

The manager giving the brief will always say this is vital for the company to survive and after we do it all will be well. It's not. it's just the easiest way for poor managers to keep the accountants and creditors happy for six months until they come looking for more cuts. Then the same process happens again to no ones surprise except those managers !

I really hope I'm wrong but it all looks and sounds horribly familiar. Good luck to all my friends and former colleagues I know how you are all feeling, it's a horrible time and I wish you all the best.

One of the snag for Flybe is that now it's listed, its problems are played out in public and there is huge pressure to report short-term improvements (i.e. quarterly). We all know however that what presents a short term improvement may not help out in the medium to longer term.

Sympathies to those affected as finding a new flight deck position will obviously be tough going, and many flybe guys have spent the last few years looking for the next rung up anyway but to no avail.

Cheeky, I think you might be right, sadly.

By the way does anyone know who it was that managed to oppose the 30 day consultation period that the Flybe dirty tricks department initially offered?

FAWeasel

You may not like JF, but having worked at both Air UK and JEA/BE/Flybe, he is more of a manager than the idiots at Air UK who handed the airline to the Dutch, which then resulted in the Air UK pilots getting the shafting they didn't deserve. I know who I'd rather work for!

I agree, recent joiners are very likely to be young, which in itself is probably the result of age-discriminatory criteria in selection for these junior boys and girls on the mentored/part sponsored courses in the first place. Funny old world!

Discrimination?
 

six-sixty Quote "...is probably the result of age-discriminatory criteria..."

Or financial discrimination by selecting only those that can afford the training?

Oh dear, are the PC brigade out again?

Whats the T&C's for the youngsters?

Do they get their training loans payed back if they get made redundant?

Beaver man & flieng

Seeing as this was posted on the Flight Deck Forums Terms & Endearments. It is a comment about the flight deck jobs.

RJ.

Terms and Endearments
 

RJ100 Quote "Seeing as this was posted on the Flight Deck Forums Terms & Endearments. It is a comment about the flight deck jobs."

Exactly, including how people get the jobs, how some unfortunates are going to lose their jobs and why they are going to lose their jobs.

Flight Deck Jobs
 

I agree it is a forum primarily for flight deck. As I am a professional pilot (as well as a Licensed Engineer) I have the prerogative to speak about flight deck matters as well as any other subject I wish to as long is does not contravene the rules of PPRUNE. I have responded to an Engineer who seems to be under the impression that pilots only consider their own position, maybe he/she is correct?

No. He/she is not correct. Check out an engineering forum, perhaps find sympathy for your off topic argument there?

...and what about management loosing their jobs? Lets talk about them too.

Or do you pilots and engineers only think about yourself?:)

Managers (self servers)
 

Clunk1001 Quote"...and what about management loosing their jobs? Lets talk about them too.

Or do you pilots and engineers only think about yourself?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif"

Clunk, this has to be a wind up (I note the smiley face) but I will bite:-

Are you suggesting that some managers may lose their jobs?

What is the world coming to?

To be honest I think most pilots and engineers wouldn't have a tear for any managment redundancys in any airline.

50% of that is because in general we are a bunch of self centered gits.

And the other 50% is because both groups are quite remote from alot of the managment functions and have very little contact with most of them. Apart from an occassional snot o-gram which in the main are ignored because said snot o-gram was written with little or no real life experence of flying the line and mostly arn't pratically possible if they are even legal.

This post isn't pointing at Flybe managment BTW I don't have a clue how they deal with either groups.

Don't feel too sorry for the management team. I understand that the headline redundancy rate of 20% only applies to the very top levels of management, not the entire team company wide. So the actual number of redundancies here will only be low single figures.

As for the rest, I suspect most will keep their posts, especially after the recent restructuring.

Leg

Thanks for the reply about the 175s. Must say that they mainly aren't to be found where I go, but are they going to take delivery of the a/c that they so confidently ordered- or not?

If the next ones have been deferred, I guess not.

I'll make the thrust of my enquiry a bit clearer.
I'ts a heck of a big change between ordering dozens of new jets one year and laying off hundreds of staff only a few years later.

What gives?

APD and the economy. Definitely NOT the business model.

Spanders.

APD is the same for all airlines. (and far too high).

I guess the economy affects us all too- Flybe more than the others then?

I know. I was being sarcastic. My post above is generally what the company have trotted out as a excuse for a while now.

LSM.

CC.

Sarcasm is so difficult to convey on't web.

Personally, I was only seconded to them for a few weeks (as a Barbie pilot) when they took over Bacon. Long enough to not fancy them much...

I couldn't ever figure out their business model anyway. Someone told me the ticket pays for flying the planes and they make all the profit from flogging monster margin stuff (buns, drinks models of Flybe 'planes) to the punters. Have they all wised up at once?

Good Luck whatever happens.:ok:

Problem is fella, the monster margin stuff has so big a margin on them nobody buys them - too greedy in too many of the extra areas

Thanks but I got out a couple of years ago.

Agreed, in-flight entertainment these days is laughing at the prices being asked for stuff I don't want. If I'm hungry, I'll eat at the airport where I have a real choice, a proper table and some elbow room. There is probably more cost to the airline in hauling that cr@p around than margin made from on-board sales.

Here's a free business tip. Rather than paying your people to try and flog me some Pringles, pay them to ask me questions about my journey. What worked well ? What didn't work well ? Why did I choose to fly with them ? Where am I travelling next and who will I use ? How will I make that choice ?

Who knows, Flybe may sort themselves out and get more of my company's business.


.....or maybe they won't.

oh dear here we go again....
Can we be clear that the average line pilot doesn't really get a say in the pricing policy of seats at their airline , or the bloody Pringles , or the sodding Hong Kong made embraer clip together planes.

there is a forum on here called " airlines, airports and routes". Might I suggest you go there instead.

Frazer you might find the crew are just as pissed of with some of the policys of the airline as you are.

The common bitch is stealing of planes to cover tech ones which means that instead of one plane being late there is 7-8 flights late and 7-8 crews lives screwed with possibly screwing the roster for the rest of the week and having to have an unplanned night stop. BUt apparently its cheaper to get the 7-8 flights away with under 2 hours late than have one 3-4 hours late.

Doesn't half piss the punters off though.

Mad jock, for someone who does not work for the company you have nailed it there in a very succinct post.

As for the other poster, don't remember your name, I do not see
any issue with order fleet replacement/expansion aircraft and then
having to rejig things at a later date, to quite Slippery Bill,
it's the economy stupid :rolleyes:

Edited to add that it's not just the economy though, chronic
systemic mismanagement has a large role to play too, and I
fear for the future if boy wonder stays in control :{

Unfortunately Mad_jock, the punters have only got themselves to blame for that one. If they hadn't gone running to the European Courts for compensation than EU261 would quite possible not be in existence now.

The company I work for used to do the same as FlyBe, delay one flights as long as required and operate the rest according to schedule. Now with EU261 we change aircraft around to keep the arrival delays under 3 hours. Can't really blame the company for this.

Good luck to all the FlyBe staff, it must be a dreadfull time. :(

Mad Jock.

Even in the short period I worked for them, they were doing this and lieing about it.

We were to operate GLA-MAN-GLA.

When we got to MAN, they said (and the word 'please' was never heard), now do MAN-EDI-MAN, then MAN back to GLA about 3 hours late.

The gave the punters some old pish as the reason for the delay. I simply told them what had happened.

My opinion of them was starting to be formed.....

Just because its the pax fault wont change them not using the flights.

With the ADP the flight prices are now into being more expensive than getting the train. And they don't have the ball ache of airports. Just rock up 10 mins before it leaves and they can take there own food and drinks with them.

If its a multiple hop your cheaper flying into europe then back into the UK again which is just plain barking.

Return fare Glasgow - Benbecula £350 on the day - and the aeroplane leaves half empty.
Given there is little in life so perishable as an aircraft seat once the the doors are closed, would it not make more economic sense to flog them off cheap at the last minute?