Is jetaifly belgium selection and interview waste of precious time and money ??
 

This week was informed about yet another experienced,excellent flying, high standard B737 JAA Captain that 'failed' the Jet Air fly Belgium 'selections'

so many fine pilots I know who have consistenly told the same story:waste of time and money, hardly a soul passes their 'tests'

what is going on out there?It is time interested Captains are warned???

Did a selection there a few years back. Everything paid from my side (of course) flts hotac transport. . the normal (so it seems these days)

The agency, lets call them Contract - Air , didn't mention the T's & C's , or at least the bit about the Bond (as I was rated with 11,000 + hrs on type, I may have told them to take a jump even if I had passed)

1st part of the assessment was an interview with a "non-person" from HR & a hideous Flemish Dyke , who is apparently in some position in the training Dept. Others were more fortunate to have "her" replaced by the C.P. who I am told is old-school charming.

Having not flown for nearly 1 year my tech knowledge was perhaps a "little rusty", so, having received a suitably vague answer to her question, the Dykes response was to ask an even deeper Q on the same system.

Needless to say I failed, and was not invited to Day 2, which was. . . . . I am told by those who subjected themselves to it, a typical Belgian
( Raw Data of course) "Fail Fest" . . . .how many consecutive & totally unrelated failures can we throw at you before you lose the thread.

So, waste of time ? probably not, but they are living in some Fouga Magister inspired era where selection is concerned. I am led to believe the actual job is not TOO bad, but does involve a fair bit of dicking around in Taxis between the usual Belgian hot-spots of Liege/Ostend/Charleroi & the jewel in the crown Brussels.

Oh, and take care that your BRU based contract doesn't involve the odd secondment (if not indeed the whole damn contract ) to Jet4You, based in some Souk somewhere South of Malaga.

well the belgians
 

are an acquired taste.The problem is they think theyre the only ones who can fly.I passed their poxy little selection and turned them down.Arrogant SOB's.Besides they dont want pilots..they want stepford automatons.

Been there a couple of years ago for a selection. First theoretical test which was pretty hard then the interview. Ive never met such a arrogants pr@cks before, even on other interviews. Luckily i failed the test because i did not want to work for those ....... It is only that particular company i m not going to apply ever again even if im on the dole.

If you go there, im not sure if you get an belgian contract or if u can join as contractor. Taxes in belgium are really high.

Good luck

Just to add a little balance.

I have been flying for a Belgian Operation for the last 5 years and have been made extremely welcome and made many great friends. Wonderful bunch of straight talking friendly people. They work hard and play hard. The chaps I fly with are Very competent in all respects.

I can't comment specifically on Jetairfly Tui but the remarks above are not aligned with my experiences of Belgium.

Did an interview last year. After tech questions with that flemish guy he asks me:
'And now you are flying into a destination where you and your co-pilot are flying first time and the weather is overcast at 1000ft. The first officer wants to disconnect all automatics and fly a raw data approach from 10000 ft. What would you do? Would you allow him to do it?'
However I tried to tell him that in the interest of safety it will be better to fly the automatics for increased capacity and monitoring, and he can fly raw data on a different, better day, it was not the corret answer!
So didn't made it to the second day where the sim was a stick and rudder exercise, trying to fly the 738 for 2 hours on raw data and single engine and systems!
No Thanks!!!!! They can have it their Belgian or Flemish way on their own!!:D

The 'right stuff' is necessary on the flight deck; but it is not necessary to prove you have the right stuff all the time. Airmanship decides when is appropriate. Attempting to prove it at the wrong time is plain stupid, and if the Flt Ops dept asks you to do otherwise then politely refuse and affirm your rank and responsibility as commander.

If I was you guys I would AVOID going there ! I'm working for an other Belgian company not to mention the biggest in Brussels.
And as many of you mentioned it, they are VERY arrogant. At the crew entrance/security they look at you from top to bottom and they never say "hello" or never reply when you say "hello", even in flemish...

A very good friend of mine work there and he cannot stand being there anymore ! He will quit as soon as one company in the sandpit call him for the rest of the interview and hopefully succeed. There sim sessions for OPC/LPC are always HUGE stress for the crew and the Training Manager is one crazy Napoleon syndrome guy and the stooge of the DFO, the infamous Berger. :E

In the summer season as contract pilot you will fly like Asses ! Expect triangle in Egypt, Morocco with flight times touching the 100hrs a month and you'll be parked in some Verac Flats in Zaventem village where there is almost nothing to do ! Unless you have a car you will get BORED very fast !

My advice : Go if you have nothing. You can still have some good time with some crew (most probably with the French speaking guys/gals : only 5% of the total maybe), the girls are young and hot (don't know if open for anything tough ;-) ). And the destinations are nice, especially in the greek islands etc...

If you have a job STAY there until you have an other (better) opportunity.

captplaystation:

You talk about a Flemish Dyke.

Don't you mean a Flemish Dijk?

Where did you have your finger in the Flemish Dijk?

One wonders at the parents choosing the name 'Dick van Dijk."

I flew for Jetairfly this year on a 7 month contract as a B737NG Captain (Parc contract) and it was a good experience.

Regarding the pre-employment interview, I found the HR director, a very pleasant lady named Sophie, and the technical/Fleet Captain to both be polite, pleasant and professional. No arrogance whatsoever.

The pre-employment sim evaluation - in a B737-800 - lasted about 1.5 hours and was entirely hand flown and without flight director. The evaluator was a TRE from Jetairfly's fleet office. He, like virtually all of the management at Jetairfly, is ex-Sabena/Sobelair. The evaluation did not involve multiple failures, nor was it exceptionally stressful. It would be fair to say that JAF is interested in your raw flying skills and ability to "chew gum and walk". But, to be clear, the TRE was friendly and made the evaluation a comfortable experience.

The training at JAF is top notch. As with transitioning to any new airline, it is best to absorb and accept their procedures. I found everyone I came across to be very helpful in assisting me through the OCC process.

I had very little reason to hang out in the Fleet Office, however when I had a need or request, I found the management would make a genuine effort to assist. Further, they never second guessed my decisions made as a commander, and were supportive.

The First Officers, overall, are well trained, and many are highly experienced, flying both the 737NG and 767 fleets. The cockpit environment at JAF was very relaxed. The cabin crew are young and attractive - certainly the most attractive CC I've ever worked with - and are trained to a high standard.

The JAF flying has been accurately described in this thread. It's interesting and involves frequent non-precision or visual approaches to mediterranean island airports. Occasionally I had long days. At different times, I bumped up against the legal maximum - 100hrs/28 days - and found it to be exhausting.

Perhaps every 6 weeks, one will be rostered for a Morocco "mission" lasting 5-7 days. I found these assignments to be enjoyable. We stayed in 5* accommodation - all inclusive of food and drink - and were provided with 80euro/day per diem in addition. The layovers are Marrakech, Agadir, Casablanca, and Paris/Orly. If you prefer not to fly a "mission", as a contractor, you can advise crew scheduling.

Regarding time off, JAF was very good scheduling me for reasonable blocks of time off - up to 5 days consecutively - which allowed my family to have some small vacations during the summer. Let me add, however, that it would be nearly impossible to commute to the JAF contract. You really need to live locally or in the region.

As for the JAF provided accommodation, I asked JAF for an allowance rather than accept the airport vicinity apartments since I'd have my family with me. JAF kindly agreed and I found very good accommodation in Central Brussels. Brussels, by the way, is a fantastic city in every way except the weather.

After my experience, what would I want changed? If JAF had a fixed roster, if the number of monthly flying hours were moderated, and if the hourly pay rate were tweaked up to match Brookfield/Ryanair, then JAF would be one of the top pilot jobs in Europe, hands down.

I would recommend the JAF contract to others. Should the impending merger at my legacy US airline go poorly, I would certainly consider going back myself.

If you think about applying as a B737 skipper it probably helps if you mention that you are flying a Pitts or F16 in your free time....:) I agree that some hot shots are running the show but hey.... tell me a similar company in Europe where there aren't any? I do know several FO's who left for greener pastures as they were fed up with Mr. F.S.
They only want aces who can fly a single engine ILS inverted.......remember, the go around is a bit different.:rolleyes:
Poor wages for a fighter ace.

Indeed, most of the Belgium companies require a lot of raw data handflying in their sim gradings. Although I do not mind, it can be over the top from time to time. All considering, what is wrong requiring it during a screening?
Just my experience.

Oh.. I thought it was only to the Ryanair guys they were acting that smug :E

How nicely put - not
 

And what is the relevance of "a hideous Flemish Dyke"? Says as much about you as it says about her if you ask me.

I didn't (ask) :hmm:

That is certainly how I found her, and feedback I had from successful applicants suggests I wasn't 100% wrong.

Well said.

Fail
 

You are not answering my question concerning the relevance of her sexual preference in relation to your seemingly unsuccessful application.

KMP,

Couldn't give a Damn whether she preferred meat or fish, in fact I was told she was actually with a "significant other" of the opposite sex, perhaps someone visually challenged :cool:

My somewhat ungenerous uncomplimentary description is more related to how I found her, and her distinctly unfeminine/ harsh / man disguised as woman / aura, along with a lack of much empathy in the sphere of human contact. I wasn't too happy to fail the assessment, but I think I am more than capable of expressing an opinion without sour grapes, even if I had passed, I doubt I could have warmed to her.

Like I said, I found her hideous, that may be a reflection on me indeed, or maybe just a reflection on the fact that I prefer my women , to be, well . . . . . women.

You can take this as you wish ,& label ME whatever you like, sexist/ jurassic . . etc , I can assure you I will not take offence, even if some is intended :D as you are, like me, entitled to your opinion, and finally, that is all we are posting here is it not ? . . our opinions.

csn BEAUTY
 

CATPLAYSTATION - Do you do anything else other than winge/grumble/snipe/moan/bitch etc etc at every little entry on PPRUNE?

I have been at Jetairfly a few years now and ITS A GREAT JOB. Others have been there longer than me and THEY KEEP COMING BACK - well the GOOD ones are INVITED BACK. Yes some of the trips are long - but not as long as a UK operator doing a day return to the Red Sea, or a Scandanavian operator doing a Canary Is day return. They are like ALL IT Charter operators ie. in the summer silly season WORK HARD. The European based Capts get rostered so they get two 3-4 day breaks at home per month so it IS COMMUTABLE.

What is the problem with that ?
- oh I forgot -- YOU expect the world to owe you a living? YOU are not the Almighty- YOU are just a 'Bus driver'- perhaps not -- how could you have time to fly as you seem to spend all day and night making posts on PPRUNE -- what is the tally now - 2401??????


Having you in the Verac Apts moaning all summer would spoil the great BBQs that Kiwi farmer organises. A few years back we had some loan pilots from Thomson. Talk about spoil the fun!! You should join them as your attitudes are the same. The seasons with the ex Sterling pilots were great. Bike trips all over beautiful Belgium - again organised by that bloody farmer - not to mention the kayak trips down a few rivers, or the Beer tasting afternoons - again on bikes, to return 'home' to the Veracs to find our colleagues ready with a BBQ - and maybe some 'beauties' for us to rest our weary eyes upon and reminisce of days gone by. By the way, that farmer comes to BRU as he says 'for a holiday'. During our winter (his summer) he goes downunder and works 12-14hrs days 7 days/week.

This year has been a little different due to Jet4You - the Morrocan operation being absorbed back into JAF. This has given the contract Capts the opportunity to have 3-6 day trips to Morrocco. Some patterns have been a little 'gypsy' in having to pack bags every day or two, while others have been absolutley fabulous. As said in a previous post - 5star, beach side full board PLUS euro80 per day. How much more do YOU want.?

Now - it is a known FACT that some Belgian companies like to demonstrate or 'maintain' their basic hand flying skills. Yes, maunal flying, no F/Ds, no A/T is examined and expected of crews to occassionally do on the line. The F/Os - even those spotty 300hr ab-initio F/Os are good- probably better than YOU. Perhaps if Air France had the same attitude toward manual flying skills then AF447 would have arrived in Paris?

It's not just Jetairfly that expects RAW data manual flying. Lionair sim check is all manual flown on Full Rose both sides so no sneaking a look over at the F/Os NAV Display. I also hear the Chinese expect the same - so WHATS YOUR PROBLEM ?


BEAUTY 4MW - Clear for Take- Off

.............. Says the jetairpilot:D

doctoring
 

Worked for them a couple of years ago. Had like 96.7 hours in the last 28 days, and was rostered a SSH and back. Called them the day before to remind them of that, and asked what they wanted to do. e.g.. land after 3.3 hours or not do it. The day I was operating I called crewing again and mentioned the problem again since they had not gotten back to me. I was told to go ahead and do the flight and they would "doctor" some of my previous flights so I would still be within limits. My answer of course was NO WAY !!
This is just one tiny example of the way things work.

As always the truth is in the middle.
The work is hard, you spend a lot of time positioning and the money is on the low side, but there are worse places for a summercontract. I wouldn't call it commutable, you will spend a lot of money in tickets for a couple of days at home and it will increase fatigue at lot. The flying is nice and so are the crews. Equipent is in good shape and the occasional trip to Marocco is a welcome change.

To come back to the original question: If you are unable to fly within 300 ft of an assigned altitude and within 10 kts of an asinged speed or if you can't draw a basic version of the electric or hydraulic system, then YES it is a waste of money and time to go to the selection.

Strange that all the negative childish comments come from those who failed. Well done Jetair, your selection process is evidently very good. I also admire your requirement for pilots to actually be able to fly!

So it's not relevant I assume?
 

Thanks for confirming a few things. Hope your PlayStation is working nicely.

I have spent a few seasons there and am going back for another season. I briefly considered Norwegian, but hey why change something that works .. I like my agency ( Contractair ) the money is not bad. And I like to fly with a company that has high standards. So if you cannot get your act together to do a bit of raw data flying during the sim check then this is not the place for you anyway. After all should it come as such a suprise???:=

Rude and Arrogant Tossers
 

I got through Day 1. Their poxy q and a session that passes for an interview... I was asked about Boeing Bulletins....! Specific to their airline !! Waste of time. And the arrogance of the interviewer. You'd think he'd invented flying and was the own one able to fly in the whole world. Out of 5 Captains (Ryanair, SAS, BMI baby, XL) I was the ONLY ONE invited to Day 2.....

Day 2 what a shambles. They had not even rostered an FO for the sim so the TRE called up some guy he knew who was doing his 737 Type rating. The lad couldn't speak english and was so useless it was embarrassing. All raw data waste of time as he could not understand my MCP requests so I had to do it all myself and then get ripped in the debrief for doing it and flying the machine...!

It was an expensive mistake applying and I suspect there is some skulduggery as the woman who runs the agency is in cahoots with the Belgians..... as she is Belge too. I couldn't find out where the scam was though, or I'd let you all know.

B.J (sorry)
 

I think most (old school) guys will go a long way with your statements about "raw data flying", "no F/D and F/D" (not really rocket science for any pilot worth its salt) Unfortunately, I think the AF447 accident is a valid example.

I think you should have left the Indonesians out of it as an example, I somehow doubt that this P2F scheme operator is to worried about raw data flying.

"300 hour ab-initio F/O's are good"

There are only two things that smell like fish, and one of them is fish.

This smells like fish...

Alle he manneke....

English or TRI-LINGUAL ?

'The lad couldn't speak english and was so useless it was embarrassing'


THRUSH -- It is YOU who is embarrassing.

All the BELGIAN F/Os have to speak FLEMISH, FRENCH AND ENGLISH. You I presume ONLY speak ENGLISH ?
:=:=:=:=

Non. Je parle bien français. J'ai travaillé en Afrique française des années.

But I expect a Type Rated FO on a sim ride for a job....

My God!!! Who does get in to this outfit. Buck Rodgers, Capt. ACE or Denzel Washington? And the ones whom are alread in must be very impressive aviators:rolleyes:

Same with Sobelair.
 

Sobelair were exactly the same, back in 2000. A few pleasant and helpful guys, but largely a crowd of self-considered "expert" operators who were unpleasant to share a crew room with. And they had the audacity to scribble "AMATEURS" on our folders, whilst we were operating flights for them out of BRU. Childish behaviour.

Strange really, but the Belgians are welcome to their own "ace of base" operations. We put it down to a national sense of insecurity in their own abilities.

I agree Roy. They must be fantastic fliers, with brains that work out the 3 times table quicker than anyone else on this planet. Amazing and other superlative words just cannot describe how good they are. Much better than all of us.... But maybe not.
Maybe just a national "small man syndrome...."!:rolleyes:

I always have a good laugh reading these threads.

The British think they invented threat and error management. The Belgians believe they could fly before the birds. The French are the kings of the skies. Don't get in the cockpit with an Italian. Beware of ex-fighter pilots. And so on and so forth. All of that interluded by cries and moans of people who failed to pass a selection for this or that airline and now blame it on the local culture.

As usual you'll find extremes on both sides in these discussions. Whereas the truth, as always, sits somewhere in the middle. I believe Jetairfly is no exception to that rule.

This critisism of Belgian companies, their selection process and pilots is getting tiresome.
Like it or not, Belgian pilots have a very good reputation Worldwide.:ok:
Yes, we are proud of that, Yes, we do work hard in keeping that reputation by operating to the highest standards day in day out, trying to train new collegues to the standards that we were trained and desperately trying to keep,our Profession a profession to be proud of in this day and age of declining standards and money trains all...
Yes, we love flying, that means like a plane has been designed, to be flown raw data. all other helps and automatics are just that: A help when in need. in normal ops. This should not be the case or you simply do not belong in the cockpit of an airliner.:ugh:
BUT...we are NOT cowboys of the Air. We do know our systems, philosophy behind the systems ( very important, even more so than just being able to draw a schematic), and this includes the use of all automatics and its correct operation and manipulation.

Arrogant Belgians?! In my whole career, I started in 1998 with a now defunct National Airline, the only arrogant collegues I have met were...British and German, with especially the Brits having a superiority complex while their common sense was totally absent in procedures, mindset and behaviour. luckily, most British collegues I have had the pleasure flying with were and are great airmen/women and a joy to spend time with:ok:

No one is without mistakes, and we all screw up from time to time, including during assessments. I for one failed also the Jetairfly sim. When they started up their ops. it was my own stupidity though, not Jetairfly:rolleyes:

I have to come to the defence of my Belgian colleagues. I spent about 10 years teaching them and they came in all shapes from youngsters with about 250 hours straight out of the SABENA academy right up to old hairys like myself. Very, very few them were not up to the mark. In fact, I would go so far as to say that they were generally a better proposition than their British colleagues.

One noticeable difference was that the Belgian students devoured manuals whereas the Brits learned the minimum possible and then used the manual as a door stop!

One of my friends has just started at Jetair. Mind you, he is a bloody good operator and he speaks fluent English, French and Flemish and has a good knowledge of German.

I don't think that my Jetfly interview was much different to a number of others I have done, at least they after 13,000 hours of accident free flying I was not insulted with the Compass test like some I could mention !

On the whole I found them very polite and professional, the technical interview was realistic for the type and the sim was without drama.

At no time did I find the unpleasant attitude that some above have mentioned.

I decided to take another job that better suited my situation but I can see no reason that turning up for the interview is a waste of time & money of you are looking for a job.

I heard that Chuck Yeager and John Glenn were both Belgian! So, there is some evidence... :}:cool:

desperate,
I think I'd take issue that modern airliners are designed to be flown raw data, with the automatics a help in time of need. As I think would Boeing and airbus.

Sim rides should be representative of normal ops , not some exercise in who has the biggest balls.

Being one of those Thomson Airways pilots who spent time some 6 months at Jetairfly. Here is my take on the airline.

Good Points-
Very friendly pilots and cabin crew.
Food was the best I have had on a plane.
Very relaxed atmosphere at work and while staying at the local accommodation.
Good career structure for new pilots, working in ops and flying.
Use of technology for pilots.

Other points-

At the time they did not "position" crew to outstations but called it Travelling time. Result, take away up to 3 hours duty on a long 3 sector day and you find yourself off duty and resting in a taxi back to Brussels with less than minimum rest for next flight. Part A and Rostering manual was very clear positioning should be rostered. But through fear of loosing their job (words from trainers and other pilots) and because of no union representation they could not change the system. Although some lost out when they did change the system after our complaints to a two base "egg concept" the vast majority gained.

Telling pilot that after 3 hours on duty trying to get tech aircraft back to base, was told they were off duty when they arrived in TFS so could come back to base hours earlier than was legally allowed.

Very competent low hour second officers constantly hand flying instrument approaches and increasing PM workload and trained in the use of gear down and flap one at 240kts so that they could "get a visual approach" No planning of descent for a probable visual approach. Resulted in many unstable approaches. Up to 5% of all approaches were unstable and landing without going around in a two month period. I hand fly myself and conduct visual approaches when appropriate but would only use gear down at such speeds if my options were limited and not as an SOP.

Management who emailed to all pilots that "contractors and Thomson pilots should not talk to their fellow pilots about other airlines", through fear that the pilot workforce might unite I assume.

Use of blank days (anytime not on day off, rest or duty) and a whole week on blank used for standby cover from about 7am to 10pm. So you could have been up all day then the company call you for a long night flight. Part A manual contradicted company "advice" regarding blank days.

One of our F/O's told he had passed initial sim ride then after 1-2 months wait for new aircraft to arrive was told he had in fact failed sim!

Working for a company which sticks to the Part A, has good terms and conditions and has union representation I am in a privileged position. I just hope that Jetairfly has matured from being a small charter carrier making its way in the competitive airline world to being a company that respects its workforce and abides by its agreed FTL's.

What is it with so called pilots not able or willing to fly anymore?!:ugh: