BA recruitment
 

Spoke to a senior Flt Ops Manager today. He said recruitment will have to be undertaken in order to fly the future program. This is especially the case now the Company are maintaining 57 744 hulls vice 53.

Rumour or News, whatever you like.:)

Well....

Can anyone confirm...
One can not apply to Brymon or Bral, City Flyer as all hiring for these regional bases are undertaken by BA with all interviews etc done at Cranebank.

Big K. Burger,

Any more details on the lack of pension provision for new joiners please? A more specific source would be very useful.

My understanding was that all new joiners must be a part of, and pay for 'NAPS 2'.

It would surprise me if this had changed for DEP's etc., as without this it would be very difficult for BA to recruit anybody at all.


Regards
Exeng

So lets get this right. Join BA and:

1. Start on a lower salary than you would at EasyJet, Go or Ryanair.

2. Then stay on that salary for five or so years.

3. Then wait at least another two years for a command, when you could have been left hand seat in Easy four years ago.

4. Whilst in the meantime that salary in point 1 is reduced in real terms by constant attacks on pilots terms and conditions.

5. Plus you have to move to the South East and find a home in the most overheated housing market in the nation.

6. Then find some spare cash to pay into a pension because the final salary scheme is gone.

Doesn't sound very attractive, does it? In fact you'd better hope that the worry doesn't make you sick because if you can't fly you don't get allowances, which means you can't afford to pay the mortgage. Mind you, its all you deserve because pilots are lazy and overpaid, and even if you're logging 900hrs per year its not enough and you must work harder. That must be true because it practically says so in the company newspaper every fortnight.

Oh, did I mention you'll spend your working day locked behind a metal door with no human contact and you'll have to request a babysitter from the cabin crew come up if you need to go for a leak in flight.

It's really very sad to see how what was once the gold standard of pilot employment has totally gone to the dogs, and how this is symptomatic of the conditions of the profession as a whole.

The few remaining companies of merit, (in my book, Monarch, Emirates, and some others outside Europe) put BA totally in the shade, as does my company, but I like to keep that to myself as too many applications would make the management think we're on to too much of a good thing!

you guys think you got it bad? try engineering!!

I didn't think we were talking about engineering, trapped, go and find another topic to whinge about that - we're slagging off BA pilot T's & C's here!

Hand Solo - as ever you have hit the nail squarely on the head.

For non-BA people: hand solo is a genuine BA pilot and his posting above accurately summarises the employment situation in BA.

not sure about overstress-think meltdown might be better!

Big Kahuna Burger - absolutely true!
I pointed it out here a while ago - but no one believed me then!

Hand Solo - and Dontdoit - I concur with your observations.

Company caring more about the crew? Not sure about that one!

Where is your union while all this is going on!!!? If I was paying as much as you guys do I'd want to see some action. I thought BALPA was pretty strong? Or is that just was it says in it's newsletters?

>>The few remaining companies of merit, (in my book, Monarch, Emirates, and some others outside Europe) put BA totally in the shade<<

Sick, I quite agree with you. Ultimately it is the pilot body who have let this happen. Collectively we have allowed airline management to regard us as a cost. Of course, our job demands more respect these days than it ever did.

It is not a career that you can now recommend to a young person. Good for life experience and then move on to something sensible.

I originally applied for DEP at BA in 1988 and didn't get through the final hurdle - I was extremely disappointed.

Due to a big change in company circumstances I applied again last year for BA and, I believe, failed the interview. Everything else went as well as, or better than, I could expect.

Apart from the initial disappointment at not being selected I have not lost any sleep over it since.

The interviewers were dreadful and inexperienced.
"Have you handed your notice in to your present employer yet?"
"Er, no, on the grounds I haven't passed this stage and the sim ride yet!"

The youngish 73 Captain from the regions who was doing the other interviews was also a gold medal winner in sarcasm and being patronising while checking our logbooks with me and a couple of RAF applicants.

I have many very able friends in BA but their selection procedures (or more importantly some of the people involved) are way off the mark.

Happy where I am.

C'mon guys - everybodys being shafted at BA at the moment, not just the Flight Crew. The Flight Crew are part of the same struggling, badly managed airline as every other employee, you just have to hang on in there and hope that it will get better someday.

Seems like the ones winging on this forum are the same ones who didn't want to give up their cheese board.

:D

Cheeseboard sucked anyway!! F.D. never wanted it (apart from those who took it home!!!!) and crew ended up giving to veg pax who had no meal loaded!!! What happened to the jacket potatoes? No-one complained when they went.:eek:

Never had a cheese board jet II, but did see one once and I certainly wouldn't spend my money on it! We are well aware that a lot of people are being shafted at BA at the moment, it's all part of managements grand 'pain sharing' exercise. However, very few people have been shafted so consistently over recent years, delivering so much more for the company yet receiving so little recognition for it. Over recent years BA pilots have increased productivity by a large, double-digit percentage. There are few, if any, other areas in BA that have matched this, yet the company actively seeks flight crew as its first target in any cost saving round. In longhaul so many crew are now in danger of exceeding the 900hrs/year limit that the company has approached the CAA for an alleviation to the rules, falsely claiming that we support it.

A few of managers thanks us in our departmental newletter for our hardwork, commitment and professionalism, yet each week they demand further concessions and the company newspaper carries a thinly-veiled attack on pilots in its letters page. This morning I received a mailshot from a very senior manager explaining that a certain low cost carrier was outperforming us because they paid their pilots less (which is untrue), a clear implication that once again its all our fault and not the fault of the tens of thousands of middle managers and executives that are notably absent in a low cost airline. This is the kind of company that BA is today. If you think it sounds good, then by all means try your luck and apply. If you prefer to work for a company which values you as a memeber of staff and doesn't seek to stir up resentment against you, then go elsewehere.

Have any of you whinging gits thought you might be part of the morale problem?? You're all so sour. If Easy and Ryan are so great GO THERE! The more of you moaners that leave BA the better it'll be for the rest of us. 'B Calm' - I hope you're right in that new recruitment will happen soon. The more fresh faces the sooner, the better.

Quid has ever occured to you that many of the "whingers" had actually joined BA from other commercial companies and therefore have a a very realistic view of commercial aviation both good and bad?

I did, and I can assure you that the previous post was spot on. I joined BA with high hopes and yet from the first day was appalled by the way in which the flightcrew were treated by the management.

Despite years of productivity improvements we have not seen a pay rise in excess of RPI. At the same time house prices have risen 10% or more year on year. In short we work hard and have suffered cuts in pay for our efforts.

I strongly suspect from the tone of your post that you are perhaps one of the management and to answer your last point....at least a couple of pilots have left BA at BHX and others are considering their options.

BA sucks but don't take my word for it come on in and get shafted along with the rest of us!

Is there any chance that some of you might actually know anything concerning BA recruitment. Sitting here having been made redundant with precious little on the horizon i would be more than grateful to have your jobs, so would my other half, the kids, bank mgr etc etc.....Being shafted and employed is one thing being shafted and losing your job for no good reason is another.

Hand Solo

Once again your posting lays an accurate blow on target

<a mailshot from a very senior manager explaining that a certain low cost carrier was outperforming us because they paid their pilots less >

I sat reading that missive over my cornflakes and couldn't believe what I saw.

Do you reckon that our Lord Protector believes the carp he writes, in which case God help him, or does he think that we'll believe what he writes, in which case God help us!!!

I don't recall my peers at Easy, Go etc being paid less than me. What on earth is he on about?

Quidnunc, many of us would love to go and work for the likes of Easy or Go, maybe not Ryanair, but find ourselves trapped by the financial consequenses in terms of pension in particular.

All we can really do is hope that in the long term there will be a change of management and that we will be appreciated as the hard working and productive pilots that we are and not treated as an unfortunate expense.

At the moment BA management's incompetence is wasting all the productivity that we give them, and their sole concern seems to be to give our work to others in the form of franchises or subsiduaries. BAs one advantage over the competition is size, and by splitting their operation up into lots of smaller operations they give up this advantage.

BA management should look at how successful airlines run and try and emulate them. Unfortunately most BA management think that they are never wrong, and certainly will never admit it when they are.

I think that it is important for potential recruits to be warned what they are in for in terms of mismanagement.

....ie: the gravy train has past the station and run off the tracks.
BA is woefully behind the times...and will never catch up...not in our lifetimes anyway.
Once a GREAT airline....now second fiddle...if that.
And this from a Yanks' perspective...anyone disagree?

Chilliray - try applying to BritishAirways CitiExpress. That's where the future probably lies. Not up to BA Ts and Cs, but then again, you can live in the regions. No huge aircraft, not above the RJ anyway, but the future looks bright.

Quidnunc, Jet 11, you are spot on. 411A, you have a point about the gravy train, but BACE are quite happy with granules thanks.

Just a few thoughts on this subject.......(This is NOT an antagonistic post, I'm just trying to make a point and provoke some thoughts, so no insults please!)

My father was a flight engineer at BA/BOAC for 25 years (retd back in 87) He logged an average of 470 hours per year, which is only half of what you BA guys are doing now! However, his earnings in real terms were about half yours, due to the fact that for many years he was in the 80% income tax bracket, with sky high uncapped national insurance contributions. So, you see, its all relative. Yes its true that property was cheaper, but interest rates were also a lot higher, so mortgages were not as cheap as you think back then!

Son of Piltdown- quote "our job demands more respect these days than it ever did".....would you still say that if you were flying an underpowered, manually controlled, unreliable, low automation Boeing 707, into airfields with few basic navaids...? on three week trips, multi sector days with no flight time limitation regs?

I worked at BA as a maintenance engineer for several years, I was not happy there so I left to pursue a piloting career. If you are unhappy there then do something about it, or go elsewhere. If not, then please stop posting your angst here and just get on with your life, doing the best you can like the rest of us!... Its very sad to see BA pilots, who are still in a good position relative to many others, whinging about T's & C's. Okay, so the "golden years" of the 80's and 90's have gone, but virtually every airline is having to cut back now. Personally, as long as I can earn enough to have an "average" standard of living I am happy as a pilot. There are still multiple rewards in terms of kudos and personal satisfaction that are nothing to do with salary, pension etc....

Private jet

Excellent post - spot on in every respect, its a pity we don't have more 'Nigels' at BA with your attitude.

;)

Private jet - stand by for flaming!

<I was not happy there so I left to pursue a piloting career. If you are unhappy there then do something about it, or go elsewhere. If not, then please stop posting your angst here and just get on with your life, doing the best you can like the rest of us!... >

This is a discussion forum, the topic is relevant to the forum and the thread contains valid contributions from active participants and employees of the companies in question.

You begin by posting your credentials, however you will find that any of us can post what we like on here, within reason. If you don't care for the subject matter you read, then in your words, go somewhere else and get on with your life.

BA pilots are perfectly entitled to whinge about T's & C's, just as you are to spout irrelevant drivel!

BA used to lead the field in pilot t&c. This is no longer the case. If you find our 'whinging' sad, then you are perhaps too sensitive.

PS Roll on the return of the airline forums where we can discuss stuff in peace without uninformed and bigoted commentators butting in!

Overstress et al

Relief is at hand - Mike has the BA Forum up and running. See you there tomorrow........

Private jet:-

>>would you still say that if you were flying an underpowered, manually controlled, unreliable, low automation Boeing 707, into airfields with few basic navaids...? on three week trips, multi sector days with no flight time limitation regs? <<

I believe the job is more demanding because the issues are more complicated these days. If our sole concern was safety then things would be relatively straightforward. As it is we contend with blame, employment concerns, career instability, management pressures, timekeeping and (very sadly) political correctness.

I have nothing but respect for earlier aviators; I do wonder though if life was a tad simpler for them.

SOP

You hit the nail squarely on the head, SOP. Is the job harder or easier today? Who knows? All we do Know is that it is different. Sure we have v. sophisticated autopilots, but need them half the time due to the sheer density of traffic in the TMA. More today it is about being a competent manager of ones crew and the people on the ground (I've seen people do it well, and badly ,and the difference is amazing).
The trouble is these days, one works twice as hard as the 707 pilot, in terms of hrs, has more to worry about in terms of managing the people, and still has to have the capability to do that NDB approach in grotty weather into a grotty airfield.
Different, but not easier;)

Also as a DEP you will be treated by many Capt's and cabin crew as a young cadet with 200 hours ....

Joining with 5000+ hours doesn't even give you a 3rd stripe, you start at the bottom and clam your way up ..........

Anyone joining now in their 30's will never see a long haul command on the current seniority predictions ..... and will always be 'juniour trash' as a Capt. in the company ....
has huge implications to your roster and lifestyle ....

If its true that they have taken away the golden nugget of the final salary pension (paid at 55) .... well, thats the nail in the coffin ....

I wish a few years ago I had though a lot more carefully before jumping ship ......

Nigel !

Some people tend to forget that although the BA allowances are pretty good and produce a fairly reasonable end of month pay packet the actual amount that is contributed to your pension (company and personal contribution) is based on your basic salary - and BA basic salary is pretty poor and below market rates for anybody who has joined in the past few years.

Plus if you are unfortunate enough to be taken ill you can kiss your allowances goodbye until you recover. Similar story if you undergo a conversion course, or take leave, or get a bad months roster.

Which company then?
 

So then the $million question. Which company is the best to work for. So some of you think EasyJ. The only problem there is that once you reach command with extras (TRI ETC.) you still won't earn aything near a BA 744 captain????
Thoughts??

DAVROS - an easyJet Captain who is a line trainer and TRI would make a gross salary of around £81,000. Lucrative share options would also apply.

I agree a LH skipper at the top 5 pay points would make more. However, he probably spent 10 - 12 years in the RHS to get a LH command. His easyJet counter part maybe 4 years. Put the pay difference in a PEP/ISA/ for a decade and you will build up a powerful little investment portfolio useable for AVC's or whatever.

The low cost chappy probably didn't have to fund a mortgage in the SE England and its associated council taxes and general cost of living.

In fact a GO Fly Skipper based in - say - Glasgow who joined as an F/O and went to the LHS in year 4 would be much better off over an entire career than someone joining BA at EGLL and getting all the way to LHS Widebody. Bigger house, lower living costs, home every night, high morale.

Lets face it BA pays a hell of a lot less than AA, Delta, United for the same job. Ignoring remuneration the company does not appear a fun one to work for with pilots vs cabin crew vs management vs unions.

There are plenty of Ryanair Captains at EGSS earning 6 figures. 5 on 3 off and the most profitable airline in Europe. Who would want EOG over that?

PS

Peter Skellan

This has come up in these forums before and I am still confused as to why BA pilots believe that their pay should be of a comparable nature to someone who works on the other side of the world.

The only comparisons that matter are with pilots in the UK doing the same job (Virgin, Easy, Go, BMI etc). Every person in any walk of life can cast around the world and find someone who does the same job as them and gets paid more, but to use that as a case for getting a pay rise is ridiculous.

:confused:

That comparision usually comes up when the BA propaganda machine starts labelling pilots as expensive whingers who are only concerned about their cheeseboard. If you want to look closer to home you'd find the BA package on long haul was also considerably less than in KLM, Air France and Lufthansa. The comparison is drawn because BA long haul is competing in a global market, not a domestic one, so its no use complaining your people are too expensive when your competitors people are even more so. BA pilots dont expect to earn the astonishing amounts some of the Americans do, but they do expect to earn comparable rates to our European competitors (who incidentally fly fewer hours and have more days off than us).

In terms of short haul, the BA package must currently be one of the least attractive of any large airline in Europe. I really don't see why anyone would want to live in London on a basic of £32K and wait 7 years for a command when you could earn much more much sooner in an affordable location with any of the low costs.

Hand solo - if the BA pay and conditions are so bad, why is there no shortage of applicants for crew positions. Even before Sept 11th, when there was much more choice of employers who were recruiting, BA always had plenty of new applicants for crew positions.

It seems that there are many more pilots than positions available and the law of supply and demand will ensure that T & C's for the entire industry (not just BA) will never be as good as they once were.

:(

When things pick up for BA, there WILL have to be a re-rating of BA's salary scales. Anybody who rejects the company now may be left wishing they had taken a longer term view.

I feel that day may be sooner rather than later.

If you join now and you are over the age of 35 you will never get a command. The demographics just won't work for you. Essentially there are nearly 2000 pilots under 35 in the airline already. There are 3600 positions. As an American would say...."You do the maths".


Sorry!

Jet II - there was no shortage of applicants prior to September 11th, but there was a serious shortage of good applicants. In the past BA had a flood of applications from experienced jet pilots with many hours, all keen to move on to better things. That flood had become a trickle and the vast majority of applications were from low hours pilots with little if any jet time. Things might pick up a bit with redundancies post-Sept 11th, but as people have already said, why would you join BA why you can earn better money elsewhere, live where you want and be part of a rapidly growing company with all the opportunites that presents?