So you want to be a pilot!
 

You decide to go along to an open day at one of the well-known flight training establishments and are subjected to a slick marketing operation, which makes timeshare sharks look like amateurs. In addition to a free lunch, and an inspiring presentation, you get fed some impressive employment statistics. And while they can’t actually promise you a job at the end of the day, they do provide a list of the placements they’ve made with different airlines - averaging 200 a year!

The cost of the course, including accommodation and living expenses, is in excess of £90,000, but that’s no problem. They can fix you up with a 10 year bank loan with reduced repayments for the first couple of years, in case you don’t find a job straight away. The only problem is, the loan has to be secured on someone’s house, and there’s an extra couple of grand in fees for setting up the loan. That’s where the ‘Olds’ come in. Well it’s a bit of a risk, but if you’ll be earning upwards of fifty grand a year, it must be worth the gamble? Anyway, that go in the simulator did the trick and you’re hooked.

You pass the Skills Assessment and medical, and pay your deposit. You work your :mad: off for the next 9 months on ground training, and then get to fly aircraft in the States for another 9. If you are lucky, all will go to plan and you end up with an ATPL. Now all you need is a job.

Half of the 200 trainees from this particular establishment were taken on by easyJet or Ryanair. You go to interviews at both companies and decide that easyJet is the better option. You are offered a two year contract via Parc Aviation, with the possibility of full employment after a probationary period. There’s just one ‘fly in the ointment’. You have to pay another £35,000 up front for Airbus type rating, and Parc Aviation will take 3% of all your earnings in admin fees.

The contract doesn’t look too bad though, with a decent hourly rate and a minimum winter period guarantee. In any case it’s a job, and you need to start paying off your loan, which has now risen to over £125,000 and is increasing at £100 a week due to interest.

All goes well for a few months, although. Parc Aviation never answer any of your emails. But hey, you can’t have everything. The flight crew are all friendly, and your pay always appears in the bank on time.

Then ‘out of the blue’, you suddenly get an email from Parc – Your two year contract is terminated with a month’s notice, as per clause x of the contract. You are offered a new contract in Berlin on two thirds the hourly rate you were getting in the UK and no winter guarantee. You are also being paid in Euros, and will have to pay German rates of tax, pension and social security contributions which are much higher than in the UK. Well you’ve been well and truly suckered and screwed by all concerned, but what choice do you have now but to take it?

IF YOU READ THIS, AND STILL END UP GOING DOWN THE SAME ROUTE, YOU WILL ONLY HAVE YOURSELF TO BLAME WHEN IT ALL GOES PEAR-SHAPED.
:=

FP. Be careful what you say on here, Your story could possibly identify you to Park or easy and you could easily find you get dumped all together.

"Be careful what you say on here, Your story could possibly identify you"

:ok: I realise that, but if you keep it to yourself, how can you stop others falling into the same trap? The main point of my post was to demonstrate just how easy it is to get 'led by the nose' into a situation like this.

In any event, Balpa are on the case now, and have written to Parc, calling it 'a cold and harsh approach to dealing with professional pilots'. They are pushing the de-motivational, safety and fatigue aspects, by drawing attention to the stress caused by the short notice, the significant drop in pay when there are large TR loans to be paid off, and the fact they will probably have to commute to SXF initially because they haven't had time to make proper alternative accommodation arrangements.

Maybe, if it were a unique case, but I suspect there are a scarily high volume of similarly lucky individuals with the same sh*t sandwich

Hate to say "I told you so," but : I TOLD YOU SO!

I guess it will only be a matter of time however, before the usual suspects like Alexander de Meerkat or Norman Stanley Fletcher will post that 'it's all not really that bad for a real career airline,' and 'BLA-BLA-BALPA is working on a solution.' Mind you, most are on a fat old DEC contract and make a living line training young suckers like yourself, so they're probably not 100% objective in this matter, hehehe. ;)

Anyway, what's your point with moaning here, flyingpicket?

You should have done better and more realistic research before you started, instead of thinking that you could just buy your way into a cushy right/left seat of an Airbus with a "career airline" and be happy ever after! :rolleyes:

You made your bed so now you have to sleep in it. Maybe Alexander can read you a nice bedtime story or sing you a lullaby! :p

You make it sound like you were forced to take up a job with FR/EZY...

If you had taken a second to think about it, instead of rushing for the first jet job in site, you may have realized that it would be more beneficial to wait for a non-P2F job. The loan repayments are irrelevant, you would have had to wait longer for the job, but you're saving yourself 30k in the meantime. With the likes of Monarch, Jet2, Flybe, all hiring in recent months, you can't say there weren't options, plus many more option abroad.

Avoid P2F! Nevertheless, good luck getting out of your self-dug hole.

There seriously needs to be an impartial source of information about job prospects and conditions that every single person who considers training has to have shoved in their face to negate the utter rubbish the FTOs spin out to visitors. Very few people will question anything they hear them say. After all - 'they know what they're talking about'.

I know there's GAPAN - but do many who visit flying schools and who are new to aviation even know of their existence? The biggest threat to long-term conditions lies in the supply-side. Anything that can be done to cut the numbers training - usually on false pretences - will go a long way.

17PA and others,
P2F is not the way to describe the easyjet set up. You fund the type rating and then you are paid for all the flying you do. The T & C's are rubbish and these are accepted by the pilot in question and as such its a little baffling why people complain about said accepted contract.

If you consider this to be P2F then you can include Jet2 and also those easyJet SSTR guys of the past.

In saying that how can you berate the OP for accepting a contract (which financially was workable) only to be treated with contempt and forced onto a terrible contract in Germany. Nobody can guess whats coming but even for easyJet that was (and is) a disgrace.

I wasn't aware you paid for the TR with Jet2, I still think it's absolutely insane to pay 30k for a type rating the current climate, with a little patience there are other ways.

Thats a bit of a narrow mindset, what you all have to realize is that when the bottomfeeder airlines screw enough people over with these schemes, their cost base goes down. This forces all the other competing airlines to follow suit in the race to the bottom. Shortly there will be no "best" jobs cause they will all be bottomfeeders.

And don't forget that you will be stuck on the right seat -if you're lucky enough to find a job- for an unbelievable amount of time. The jobs are in the hands of the agencies, and you will always require 500 hours as a captain on type if you want a captain job one day...

This has all be done before. People have warned today's wannabees about their prospects. The forum moderator officially threw in the towel as he was sick of being accused as being a negative barsteward. The fact of the matter is, neither EZY or FR need to recruit another FO for crewing purposes, both airlines are no longer expanding and the so called 'exodus' of experienced crew has slowed to a crawl. Pay to fly, here today, gone tomorrow cadets are recognised revenue generators among management today. A continual rotating door of 200hr jet jockeys looks great on the bottom line. That's their purpose, to make wonga. And business appears as brisk as ever.

Again callsign kilo not quite correct. easyJet make no money from taking on a new cadet. In fact they open themselves up to expenditure in the form of winter hours protection. Its CTC who make the profit on each cadet by charging over the top for a type rating whilst taking a cut of the hourly rate.

Boring facts getting in the way of a good theory . . .

so what do you recommend wannabe pilots to do
reading this has scared me but hasnt stopped me from wanting to be a pilot(im having to extinguish the smoke coming from my pen everytime i revise for my GCSE'S)

Dct_Mopas,

You have it exactly. UK FTO's, some big & some small have really made very unrealistic sales pitches over the years, to the extent i'm amazed that trading standards are not involved. I'm nearly a decade clear of those shisters who constantly plead poverty and operate tatty recalcitrant aircraft out of crappy little shacks but park a Porsche outside....But its a symbiotic relationship, the airlines get a continuous supply of cheap deluded naive P2's and the FTO's make good money out of training them up...and the regulator just lets it happen because no rules are broken, theres no safety issue (until a prang occurs that is....) & of course the FTO's pay fees to the regulator...........

Generation Z; blind trust in the sales talk of flying schools, bankers, second hand car salesmen, autoflight and politicians. :ugh:

“In any event, Balpa are on the case now, and have written to Parc, calling it 'a cold and harsh approach to dealing with professional pilots'.”

Just seen a copy of the reply from the top dog at Parc. It wasn’t their fault after all, as it was forced on them by EU law…. And there was me thinking the EU meddlers were all about minimum wage and improving working conditions, not maximum wage and degrading them.

He goes on to say that they discussed the matter with their personnel, and found them far from de-motivated …. That’d be the ‘take it or leave it’ email they sent with 48 hours to make a decision one way the other.

In fact, a number apparently volunteered….. Yeh right, that would be the lemmings with their hands up to be first over the cliff!

...And the majority are looking forward to working at their new base….. The turkeys who think they’ll be playing with their Christmas presents on boxing day. Afraid I haven’t come across any yet.

A move of base is apparently a time to be aware of each individual’s concerns and wishes…… But ‘I DON’T WANT TO GO’ doesn’t appear to count for much.

He suggests Balpa keep statements like ‘risk of fatigue & demotivation’ and ‘potentially fatigued and anxious’ private and not disseminated further…. Well we would’t want to upset the guys at the bottom of the cliff or belly up on the Xmas table. In any event, if the wings do fall off, we don’t want any finger pointing.

He concludes by saying that they will ensure the pilots concerned are motivated and looking forward to the new challenge….. Yippee :D that must mean relocation expenses, a decent hotel provided free until suitable accommodation is found, net pay increased to what it was in the UK, and a winter guarantee. NOT!

DtH - Generation Z; blind trust in the sales talk of flying schools, bankers, second hand car salesmen, autoflight and politicians.

You missed out a few people and professions who spring to mind in no particular order – school careers advisors, financial advisors, your local plumbers, electricians, and builders, insurance companies, journalists, columnists and editors, TV presenters, your local NHS trust, estate agents, new car salesmen, solicitors, accountants, mortgage lenders, your pension provider, stockbrokers, local councillors, work colleagues, your boss, cold callers who try and sell you loft insulation, or offer to claim back your PPI payments, ….. embittered old guys who have some sort of axe to grind, and particularly people who post on anonymous websites like this one…. In short just about anyone you’re likely to come across in your daily life.

OK, now we’ve agreed that you can’t really trust anyone or anything you read, it’s pretty obvious you need to do your own research. … Hang on a minute, where are you going to look, who are you going to ask and how do you know whether you can trust what you’re being told?

.... Oh. and are you implying it was any different for generations A to Y?

You started training in the midst of the worst recession for 70 years to become an airline pilot.

Every reasonably well informed person knew there was excess supply of qualified pilots around , XL etc went bust, many others had redundancies. You, however, ploughed on and risked over 100k to fulfil your dream. You weren't on a tagged scheme.

At the end, you got offered a RHS with EZY, and you paid for a TR. How much more would you have been prepared to pay out of interest? You had a contract that was worth next to nothing, as it s now proven.

Did it ever occur to you why EZY selected yourselves from OAA ? Was it the massive shortage of fatpls out there? Was it that the people from your school were all fantastic, as you d had to pass such rigorous tests just to get on the course? Was it that you had access to more cash than sense? Or was it that you could be much more flexible and cheap labour.

You jumped a massive queue of FIs, Flybe guys, unemployed and highly experienced jet pilots and now are complaining. These people are also mightily annoyed with the likes of yourself and you now fail to realise that You only have yourself to blame.

Well said FANS, I agree.

it's insane to spend that amount on a TR when it can be obtained from other EASA training centres for about half that amount.

do the math.

FANS
it's even more crass than cheap labour, it labour that's willing to get financially screwed into a cocked hat for a job, where they will get ahem! screwed into a cocked hat.


Flyingpicket:
That's the point. If anyone wants to bite into and chew any old PR garbage that gets thrown at them, then they can expect the bitter aftertaste or choking on something rancid and fetid.

Across the river Lenny; see the farm, see the rabbits?

BANG!

Yeah agreed, well said FANS.

You may think the industry is all messed up because you've paid out a fortune and got nothing back except a part time gig with no money and no future but on the other side of the fence you've also screwed the system for the rest as well. Im stuck in corporate on a small jet and rubbish money for which I waited years and years to get. That would be fine, theres nothing wrong with it, if it were not for the fact that because of guys like you paying your whole way through to the top jobs to subsidise your lack of qualifications, skills and intellegence, guys like me are stuck going absolutely nowhere and the whole airline career path is now just a dead end.
I could have 3000 hours on my a/c and it now doesnt count for dick if i try to forward my career with a bigger operator or a bigger a/c. Thats because rather than acknowledge experience and skills built up over years in the industry they would sooner take the money from a sniveling little oxford punk with wealthy parents. Candy from a baby I think they say??!
Do I blame the airlines? Of course not, they exist to make money and if they can get away with it it's hardly suprising they will try. Strangely Im not sure I even blame guys like you. You want a job, you need a job, and having already paid out 80k the extra 30k to go straight onto an a320 almost makes good sense in business terms. After all, with the career path as I've mentioned, why would you pay to get rated on a learjet or a citation so you can donate your life to a charter for 20k with no scope for future progression whatsoever.
BALPA/EASA/CAA are the only ones who can now fix this mess which they should have done long before it got to this. They have the power to simply make it law that you cannot be in a flight deck unless you are a proper paid employee of the company/operator. I dont know if thats even enforceable and i have no doubt idiots like MOL would find some way around it anyhow, but they could at least try and put some pressure on them as the whole thing right now is a massive farce.

I do understand your gripe and I do sypathise to a degree. I feel the same about the industry myself at the moment and unless something changes I will definately leave for good as well. I thought I was bettering myself when I switched careers and Im still amazed at how much of a joke and a circus aviation really is. Lets hope things go back to how they used to be for everyones sake.......

"Stuckgear - Across the river Lenny; see the farm, see the rabbits?
BANG!"

Afraid you'll have to explain that one to me Bruce (or is it Robin). Is it some sort of American joke? Also, as you quoted about 95% of my original post, why did you decide to leave out the last sentence, which was the whole point of the post, and the reasion it was Capitalised?

Read more, it broadens the mind. That right there is a reference to "Of Mice and Men" by Steinbeck. Very appropriate to the state the airline industry is now.

Harsh as it may sound, I don't sympathise.

People in society and the wannabe pilots have been fed a line of not the facts, but what they want to hear, devoid of the facts. They have elected not to do any research into the facts behind the presentation, have been reamed in the process..

'shock, horror' we were lied to.. it was all just a ploy to get us to put our hands in our pockets ?

yer! well, no sh*t sherlock.

explaining the quote ? sheesh ! It just evidences the fact that the newbie know it all's dont actually know it all and history will repeat itself unless people want to actually expose themselves to history rather than just get spoonfed.

Prof. Rubik makes a valid point: the traditional path is no longer valid and having many hours on jet aircraft is pretty much, well, worthless..

Exerpience and knowldege come at a price and those without, are in effect cheap labour. Airlines don't want expereince or knowledge, they want cheap.


so when people have sold themselves, their career and their collegues out to the lowest bidder, don't come crying for sympathy becuase you are now expected to be even cheaper and if you dont like it, then go do a Jack Karouak

caveat emptor.

not when it comes to Couscous !

added to that, as a contractor, or as self employed, i.e., you have a company that provides labour to a carrier, BALPA cant help you anyway.

BALPA provides assistance to employees, not to third party contractor suppliers.

indeed, their position is not employment relations.

I think everyone here is missing the point.

Spend all the effort you like in blaming the guys who signed up for these schemes, but the truth is if you'd have been in the same position with the finances to do so you would've done just the same thing.

The real issue here is the fact that we as a pilot group allowed all this to happen. When times were good in 2007-8 my previous company (one with large orange jets) were in pay negotiations with the pilots. We were offered paltry pay increases despite huge profits and RPI greater than the pay rise being offered. The company was opening bases overseas on different crew contracts whilst at the same time proposing this new "Flexi-pay-for-line-training-blah-blah" BS contract.

Not many were prepared to strike though, and many even totally apathetic by refusing to complete the BALPA ballot on strike action.

I myself was accused of wanting to "bite the hand that feeds me" even though I'm not a militant-type individual, and I certainly was aware of what an over-zealous union can do. However I could see what was slowly happening with the Management 'bonus culture' and wanted a fair slice for all the crews efforts. It was obvious they were winning by divide and conquer and most of the crew only cared about their own current situation without considering the future implications.

Now the same pilots who were deriding my concerns at the time seem to be all over this forum blaming the guys who signed up to these crazy proposals for the current situation. I expect fairly soon that EZY, like RYR will be crewed mostly by flexi-pilots and what few guys are left on permanent contracts will be in such a minority they will have no voice whatsoever.

It has gone past the point-of-no-return for LoCo airlines and I have the utmost sympathy for any pilot who gets treated this way - whether they signed up in a recession or not... With the narrow-mindedness and selfishness of us as a pilot group this outcome was always on the cards - whether there were cash-rich cadets available or not.

I feel so fortunate that I got in the industry 12 years ago, otherwise I feel I would be one of these poor individuals living out of a suitcase changing base every few months with no family, money or worthy life.

It's sad that it's come to this. :sad:

Good luck to the OP I hope luck shines on you someday soon.

Rex, my post wasn't aimed at you.

Apologies if it looked that way based on the fact I replied straight after your post.

I agree you made a good decision and I applaud you for the foresight and balls to be able to stand your ground.

My gripe is with the pilot group as a whole (even me included) for ruining what used to be 'living the dream'.

No worries. I actually agree with a lot of what you said.

oh, i agree. once the debt is incurred, then it needs to be paid down (rather akin to our economic problems), and the clock is always ticking on the licences.

the fact is, is that many people took on the debt without forethought to the future, just rush rush now now, race to the bottom.

can i raise sympathy for those who did that now moan like petulent teenagers? not a lot.

many decided not to take on huge debts and work their way up and generate experience, they also got screwed over by the race to the bottom..

got 3,000hrs in a TP and want to move your career forward ? join the back of the queue with the 250hr sky gods..

been in this industry for 16 years, never took on a penny of debt for my licences but now i see no future as a viable career for the next 25 years of working life. It *is* a shame what has happened to this industry and the lack of professional standing as a career option, so when i hear people moaning and bitching... shoulda checked the reality before you took on a loan, no swallow the marketing PR hook line and sinker.

some people are *still* taking on debt right now for a flight deck career.

Let's kick someone when they are down
 

To the OP - I really do sympathise with you, unfortunately you have been taken in by the hard sell of those corporate entities who have no concern at all for anyone or anything other than the bottom line. The big FTO's, agencies and all too many airlines are integrity free zones nowadays I'm afraid.

To those who see fit to kick someone when they are down - You guys have obviously never been taken in by anyone at any point in your lives and therefore
Have every right to criticise. In fact having never been taken in by anyone, even as impressionable young twenty something's you are all obviously much more intelligent than most of us.

So then how is it that you are stuck in low paid RHS jobs moaning about young guys stealing your promotion prospects, when surely you should be running BA or Virgin by now?

Or could it just be that you are cr*p at your job, have never got anywhere for that reason, and like venting your bitterness on an anonymous forum against people who are easy targets???

We all know that the airline industry is travelling around the 'U' bend at the moment, but I find it quite reprehensible that people think it is ok to blame the young guys coming into the business with a dream and a bank loan.
They are not the engineers of all this, they are the victims. Those at the top are taking advantage of people's dreams to swell their own pockets with absolutely no care at all for those young and old who are suffering as a result.

It really does stink how the pilot profession is being run into the ground, however I think we should all remember where all of this coming from, the like of MOL and co.
Concentrate on lobbying against and venting your anger against them, and you might just make a difference for yourselves and for those coming into the profession in the future.

Dry your eyes. They are not all "victims."

fla,

taking on a 100 grand plus debt should be no small matter, that is a considerable amount of personal liability to carry and no-one should do so on a promise.

the 'taken in by the hard sell' is just blowing smoke up the arses of those of who did and came unstuck; 'poor you, you are a victim', 'tragic', 'evil FTO's' etc etc.

No FTO has, as far as I am aware, held a gun to someone's head and forced them to take out a loan and blow the money with them. They have merely presented pretty pictures of 'actors' in their mid to late 20's with four bars on their shoulders on the steps of an A320/737 with the idea that this could be you once you drop 100k with us and get your 250 hours and a blue licence holder from the CAA.

Due Dilligence is what anyone should perform when making an investment of any kind, not read the pretty brochure and look for 'confirmation bias'.

Caveat Emptor

Yes, I may sound harsh, but many have been highly vocal on the situation for a number of years, many on this forum too.

The FTO management, MOL, etc do exactly what they are in their positions to do; maximise the returns and profitability for their companies. They are not social welfare organisations to make someone who wants scrambled egg on their hat a career. IOW they are in it to make money.

As for the OP, he's on the money with this:

well, boo effing hoo.

or as another poster put it.. Told You So.

I agree, but employers also have a duty of care to their employees. This is enshrined in legislation throughout Europe. What we are seeing in aviation currently is this duty of care being blatantly flouted for the benefit of the shareholders, with seemingly no comeback on those responsible.

contractors are not employees. ergo those who opt for the programs being offered as contractors are well aware that they are not being offered a job as an employee, they are being offered a contract, as contractor, that affords them no rights as employees, as they are not employees, no benefits as employees, ne recourse as employees, as they are not, and their contract may be terminated or adjusted at any time.

for those going on these schemes, what they are being offered is what it says on the tin and taking it only empowers the further degredation of T&C's across the industry as one airline does it, the others will invariably have to follow to suit in order to reduce their cost base to compete to retain market share with a carrier that has little, if any, obligations toward those who fly their aircraft.

Those who borrow money to spunk up against the wall of an FTO on the promise of a career on the flight deck are not employees of the FTO either.