Not sure I'm with you - as I understand it, in the UK at least, the concept of "Duty of Care" mainly covers Health and Safety aspects of your work and workplace, are you claiming breach of H&S rules is widespread in parts of the industry or are you thinking a dire contract can also be considered a breach of Duty of Care..........:bored:

Wiggy, you are correct to a point, duty of care does primarily relate to health and safety legislation including safe places of work etc, etc.
It does also cover employees welfare, so not just ensuring that you kettle has been PAT tested!
I do not pretend to be an expert on contract law, but I am an employer so do have first hand experience of this sort of thing.
Where your conditions of employement permanent or otherwise can be proven to be detrimental to your welfare, then there is certainly a case to answer here, albeit not clear cut I admit.

Stuckgear you are not entirely correct there I am afraid, contractors when at your place of business are considered as employees for insurance purposes, they are also considered as such by Hmrc if the contractor has no other place of business.

HMRC has no jurisdiction outside of the UK.

Yes the whole contractor issue does cross a very grey line, we've been down that road before on these forums, there's no need to rehash it again.

why do you think the guys are being shunted out to contracts under other EU states ? see note above.

Sorry. flying low again, but the precept of accepting a contract considering that it may be challengable if you get shafted is frankly pathetic. Those that have accepted such terms, did so with the knowledge of what they do.

1. the pros and cons have debated hotly here as well as other places.
2. it has been well vocalised on the damage it has done to industry.

so to come boo-hooing that after taking up 100k + of debt and taking a ****ty contract that as per 1 and 2 above now means they dont have it as rosy as they tought it would be..

oh please !

contractors may be considered employees for contractor purposes and insurance may be subrogated to cover including but not limited to employess, contractors, designees, sub contractors, visitors it does not mean that they are duly responsible for their rights as and employee.

for example, as a business owner, you may have a contractor on your premesis to say do some wiring, or a visitor / representative, your insurance may well cover them if your filing cabinet falls off the wall and bangs them on the head, but it doesn't mean you are responsible for their tax contributions, pension, or their general welfare under their own employment terms.

but this is a digression..

the contractor pilot is an employee of their own company and it is that company that is contracted to the carrier to provide the services it provides.

you are mixing insurance with employment law.

Wow, there’s nothing like a wet weekend to bring out all the nasty professional trolls! Why are there so many bitter and twisted individuals who delight in aiming offensive and vitriolic rants at people they have never met, and whose lives and circumstances they know nothing about?

Professor Rubik: How do you justify following up what appears to be an admission that you screwed up with an ill-judged change of career which has now left you in a ‘dead end career’ as you put it, with a hypocritical attack on others who have chosen an alternative path? Referring to them as ‘snivelling little oxford punks, lacking in qualifications, skills and intelligence’, doesn’t say much for your attitude to life and other people, and perhaps that’s what’s actually holding you back in your career.

RTO:- Read more, it broadens the mind:So they say! but it seems to have had exactly the opposite effect on some of the contributors to this thread, and one narrow-minded individual in particular.

Stuckgear: “wannabe pilots have been fed a line of not the facts, but what they want to hear, devoid of the facts”

Employment Statistics | Oxford Aviation Academy - OAA.com

So are we to believe that the above published employment statistics are pure fiction then? They are claiming 1,281 positions filled in 105 different airlines around the world. How would you suggest researching whether the statistics are true or not?

“explaining the quote ? sheesh ! It just evidences the fact that the newbie know it all's dont actually know it all”

Well believe it or not, American literature doesn’t feature very highly on the National Curriculum these days, and I’ve yet to find any profession in the UK where it has any relevance. Maths and physics are the requirements for entry to most FTOs, and although I’ve never professed ‘to know it all’, I’d be happy to debate the origins of the Universe, and the nuances of vector calculus with you any day of the week (but not in this forum)!

“BALPA provides assistance to employees, not to third party contractor suppliers”


Actually, Balpa provides assistance to its paid up members, who may or may not be contractors. Whether they will make any difference remains to be seen.

“been in this industry for 16 years, never took on a penny of debt for my licences but now i see no future as a viable career for the next 25 years of working life…
so when i hear people moaning and bitching…”

Sounds to me that's exactly what you are doing! So you admit screwing up in your career choice too, and now it’s suddenly everyone else’s fault. Did you really want to go where most of the PTF boys have now ended up (assuming of course, they'd be interested in you)? No, I thought not, so why exactly are you still bitching?

flying picket, nice try.

1. i am not bitching and moaning. i am calling it as it is

poor you, you had awfully rough time of it, bad FTO's, bad PARC... is that what you want to hear ? that you are a victim ?

2. i'm not admitting to screwing up my career choice at all, that is pure sophistry on your part. i went in with eyes wide open, any offers i have presented or accepted have been in the full knowledge of what they were. i would not change much about what i have done nor acheived.


likewise, you went into your situation taking on the debt you did and taking on a contractor position, in the knowledge of exactly what it was; now you want sympathy? its in the dictionary somewhere between sh1t and syphilis.

Up until recently that is exactly what some of my employees were, ltd companies, until that is I was advised by people who know much more about these legalities than you or I that this was an unlawful position to be in.

I am not going to debate this any further as there is no point and I will gladly admit that I am not a legal professional.
My opinion still stands however, the OP has ended up with a raw deal, we can slate him all night long for what may have been a mistake in signing his contract, but to all of you that seem to revel in harsh opinions on this, haven't you ever made mistakes?

I know I have and was glad of the support when I found myself in a pickle, he/she has had the guts to post their situation to warn others, and yet so many people seem to want to shoot this person down for it???

May I ask, if you were face to face with the OP, would you be so scathing? Probably not, all too happy to hide behind anonymity.

it depends on the circumstances of the contract, the HMRC have specific rules pertaining to this, it is not unlawful to use contractors, many of have contracted in specialists and been contracted ourselves. it depends on teh circumstances, the HMRC rules are available and have been presented more than once on these forums in specific relevent threads.

However, these rules can and have been circumvented by using structures that are outside of the jurisdiction of the HMRC, yes many EU states are trying to crack down on this for their slice of the tax pie that has been lost, so expect more agency 'tourism' switching from state to state.

yes it's crap. but those who signed up up to these schemes only empowered it. contracted flight crews are nothing new that have been used for decades on short term contracts, its only on full time/long time contracts that has caused issue in a deliberate attempt to circumvent employment law and obligations. again those that signed up to these schemes only empowered the schemes.



indeed to the OP, fair play on voicing the realities.

however, this is not something ground breaking or shockingly new, indeed many have voiced the realities of the situation for years now.

so yes while their is notice of publicising the problems, no there will be little in the way of sympathy.

yes i would say it face to face also, if you feel that being honest with someone is *disgraceful* then so be it.

and my anonymity is not that great many know me on this forum and if someone has a justified reason for knowing i will disclose that.

Stuckgear

”i am not bitching and moaning. i am calling it as it is:”

“now i see no future as a viable career for the next 25 years of working life…”

Sounds a hell of a lot like bitching and moaning to me.

is that what you want to hear ? that you are a victim ?

“now i see no future as a viable career for the next 25 years of working life…”

Sounds like we’re all victims of something then!

"now you want sympathy?"

“now i see no future as a viable career for the next 25 years of working life…”

And you don’t?


Actually, I never asked for, nor expected, sympathy. As I have said repeatedly, and you do not seem to have been able to grasp, my original post was a warning to other potential ‘victims’ who are considering the same career path. – Nothing more, nothing less. So why you persist in trying to rubbish the whistleblower if you actually agree with the sentiment, is beyond me?

You, and others on here, have probably done more to put off potential future recruits with the prospect of sharing a flight deck with someone who is carrying such an enormous chip around. And, funny as your GIF might appears to be at first sight, it is undoubtedly indicative of the way in which you believe it is OK to bully those you believe to be inferior ‘little people’. As Wilson Mizner is accredited with saying, “you should be nice to the people you meet on the way up, as you never know who you're going to meet on the way down”. One day you might be sitting on the RHS opposite someone you have verbally abused on here.

[The above comment regarding the GIF, is in reference to an animated cartoon posted by Stuckgear which has since been deleted. It depicts the big guy on the LHS bullying the the little guy on the RHS by pulling his goggles and letting them twang back in his face - just about says it all]

Flyingpicket you started this thread because you've been screwed over and you were annoyed. It may be because you wanted opinions and support or it may be that you wanted to warn others in a similar position, I dont know. You've received a mixed bag of responses which, whether you like it or not, were frank and honest opinions from guys with a range of experiences in the industry.

Now suddenly you come back all cocky and full of yourself extracting quotes from peoples posts, taking them out of context and adding smart arse comments.

What is it you are looking for exactly? Peoples support? Opinions? An agony aunt? Or a refund on your training?

I gave you my honest opinion and I even said I sympathised with your situation be it thats what you were looking for or not. Dont be concerning yourself with me though. I've had, and still have, a really good proper alternative career. I have no flying debts because I didnt leap blindly into £100k+ worth of debt before I was old enough to even understand what %APR meant. I have a real jet job where Im highly respected, get paid a salary and work all year round. Maybe its not the money it should be and maybe I am annoyed that my career progression from where I am is stifled because of the way the industry is now, I don't think Im alone though? Maybe I do have a chip on my shoulder about guys your age buying their way directly into the jobs that were once earned. Maybe Im not a big fan of the Oxford machine and the standard of the guys they turn out. I don't think I'm alone there either?
Who knows???
Sounds like you've got far more problems than me so I wont burden you with anymore opinions or advice.
Good luck to you in Berlin, its a lovely place but maybe not so good when you are only working half of the year for a third of the money and you've got £100k or more to repay.
Still, "living the dream" eh?
Oh and dont be thinking to yourself "its ok, I will put up with it and subsidise the income until I get myself 500 or 1000hrs on type, then return to the uk for a proper job" because guess what.................!!!
Enjoy............

Yes – that’s the problem - so many terrible pilots at Flybe, Loganair, Eastern or working in the Middle East or as FIs. When they went for the rigorous selection days alongside the OAA/CTC cadets, they were completely outclassed; that must explain why EZY keep taking on so many cadets.

OR could it be that these guys don’t even get invited to any selection process?? Their career advancement is nil, as flexible and cheap cadets are queuing up by the shipload.

The point that those cadets keep forgetting is that they aren’t being selected because they are sooo much better than the 1000s of experienced pilots out there “who are cr@p at their jobs”, they are selected because they’re very cheap, willing to sign any contract, flexible, and will work where they’re told to.

Therefore to complain about the T&Cs simply beggars belief – they’re the entire reason the cadet is in the RHS rather than an experienced (and dearer/less flexible) pilot.

There are still ways back to the UK. BA and Monarch (mainly BA) have taken scores of easy flexi-FOs over the past couple of years and all command vacancies are in the UK onto the proper contract. This is being attacked though, unsuccessfully so far.

Professor Rubik,
I actually believe that in the main, both your posts have made a worthwhile and positive contribution to this thread. However, if you make offensive and disparaging remarks about a whole group of people you know absolutely nothing about, you surely must have expected some comeback.

"Snivelling punk” may be a term of endearment in the States, but in the UK it is a crass insult with no other purpose than to offend. Criticising the ability, and particularly the intelligence, of a few thousand people, is also likely to raise hackles. You cannot be surprised at that.

‘Inexperienced’, I’d go along with, but hey, you must have been that once. Surely the only real ability required by the person in the RHS initially, is to know and understand the ‘rules of the road’, to be able to keep a cool head in a crisis and to have the ability to get the aircraft safely to its destination and down on the ground, if for some reason the guy in the LHS becomes incapacitated? Being able to land safely on the Hudson, comes later with experience.

I apologise if you think I quoted your remarks out of context, so here they are again in their original context:

“because of guys like you paying your whole way through to the top jobs to subsidise your lack of qualifications, skills and intellegence, guys like me are stuck going absolutely nowhere”.

“they would sooner take the money from a sniveling little oxford punk with wealthy parents. Candy from a baby”

I guess you must consider your assumed age difference and superior intellect (which is implicit in the above comments) give you the right to label my responses as ‘cocky’ and ‘smart-arsed’. I’m obviously considered the ‘upstart’ or ‘naughty school kid’ who isn’t allowed to 'answer back' to his superiors.

“I didnt leap blindly into £100k+ worth of debt before I was old enough to even understand what %APR meant”.

There you go again with another un-called for patronising generality

“Maybe Im not a big fan of the Oxford machine and the standard of the guys they turn out."

Have you ever flown next to one, and if so, was your impression based on a representative sample? Or is this disparaging remark simply based on hearsay?

Well it’s been good talking to you, and I do thank you for your positive sentiments. As for the rest, I guess only time will tell!

So basically your predicament is everybody else's fault, or what are you trying to say?

FANS has hit the nail on the head in posts #24 and #54. :ok:

Flyingpicket: the worst thing in this story, is that you can consider yourself lucky, you have a job.
Many CPLs who stayed in Europe are not even in your case...

Good luck with your huge loan. Get a captain upgrade, the salary will increase... That's what you should aim at now...

DtH:
I'm trying to say exactly what I have said. I don't believe it's possible to be any clearer than that. :ok:

The Market
 

Some will quit because of
Cheap credit; easy to borrow; high training debt levels; interest now at all time low; interest rates will rise; pressure on pilots with debt will increase
Low cost airline; lower pay; continued pressure to reduce further and increase revenue by training pilots
Rapid Expansion; then stagnation; airline further pressure to reduce costs; further reductions in pay
Fuel costs rising; further pressure to reduce costs and pay and conditions
Cross EU standard Regulations; increased competition for jobs; from Eastern Europe where wages are lower
Validity of expensive (ME IR £500/hr)self-selected frozen ATPL route declining compared to rising use of MPL where airlines can make revenue and charge for training and hours
Cost of hours building and/or difficulty in making initial jobs pay overheads and debt

Thank you for sharing this.
After working a few years in ground and baggage handling and vip services at airports, i've tried to earn up so I could proceed "down this road" you've just explained. I've tried to apply to cadet programs but I see myself as a "lost candidate" amongst the 200 that apply. As a aircraft enthusiast, i've long waited for the day for myself to fly, but what you currently just explained makes me highly concerned whether actually to get into the flying industry. :sad:
Just wanted to say cheers for the input

So the conclusion if I may?

We have:

1.) A high supply/low demand situation which is forever increasing in the favour of airlines due to flight schools* flooding the market with pilots and brainwashed kids not understanding the dire consequences of a £130k of debt in the face of 6 month on, 6 off contracts, no fixed base or income.

*On closer inspection we find that the big flight schools have much bigger connections to the airlines than it may seem with former airline training chiefs either running them or having significant others profiting from the deal. Why is this not fair? Because in the interests of fair competition it is bad news, and results in the price and policy fixing of pilot training, recruitment and compensation.

2.) A capitalist culture which is all about lining the pockets of a few rich men and denies the modern employee basic rights to job security.

3.) A regulating body which does not get involved with employment issues even though lack of job security is a massive contributing factor to stress and safety.

4.) A union which has left it far too late and at some point in the past had it's senior members actually profit (in rank and pay) from the situation we have today.

5.) A tax authority which is not able to do anything about a major British employer which is, on a perpetual basis, employing pilots (contractually exclusively tied to them) for a duration of 2 or 3 years even though it's full-time employment in disguise. Doing away with them then hiring more!

6.) A national law which prohibits permanent employees from participating in industrial action for the rights of contractor workers (even though the permanent ones could plead on grounds of safety)

The root cause of all this is the flight school/airline orchestrated brainwashing of the next generation that ultimately results in an oversupply of pilots. The oversupply is tipping the balance of scales away from current pilots. It provides the foundations for the abuse pilots suffer today and the worsening of Ts and Cs. Therefore, we must find a way of regulating the supply however daft that might seem.

Just think….if tomorrow a privately run train driving school was launched and offered train type ratings with the promise of 6 month (half pay) contracts, all thanks to the fact that the rail company’s boss is best friends with train TRTO boss, what would Bob Crowe’s reaction be? I’m pretty certain he would succeed in launching some pretty big industrial action all in the name of SAFETY.

As a trusted professional group of employees we would not be ignored if we had a safety argument. Often making some noise is more than enough to get the right attention. It takes one self-invented body or lobbying group to get the ball rolling.

Spot on Superpilot! :ok:

Unfortunately most of the old boys and the unions are still comfortably numb and blissfully ignorant...

This thread is a painful reminder of what our industry (not just one particular company!) has become and anyone who thinks that the worst is behind us is either blind, deaf, stupid, or all of the aforementioned. :ooh:

Thats a pretty fair summary Superpilot.

Flyingpicket

I promise I'm not out to offend you or anyone else personally.

You are right, maybe my description of OAT cadets was a bit harsh and a bit unproffesional. It's not hard to get wound up easily reading posts on this site sometimes!

To re-iterate my point which Superpilot has just summarised, my main personal concern is that in most other professional industries you work your way through from junior positions learning the trade right up through senior and management etc. In the military, everyone starts as a private or a JT and works their way through sergeant, warrant officer etc based on time served, suitablility and merit. Doctors for example dont go straight from medical school into specialist areas of brain surgery.
It is not yours, or any other pilots fault that this structure has collapsed in aviation because of the way the system allows people to buy in. If a junior doctor had the option to pay to bypass all of the years working nights in an A&E for low money and go straight in as a surgeon I bet they would do. The difference is their proffessional bodies would never ever allow it to happen whereas ours has.

It's almost a certainty that you will have to buy a type rating these days and we've all weighed up the economics of cost vs job and salary prospects at some time. Eight years ago the B737 was the hot type to get with the best chances of a job, currently it's the A320.
I think that given your options you were right to go the way you did and whereas a couple of years ago that would have probably got you home and dry with a permanent easy contract it now seems that things have deteriorated even further?

In my experience guys like you are not deliberately looking to buy their way to the top. You would probably much rather have got a straight job with a turboprop operator, put in a few years and got some good experience then moved onto a bigger jet. The problem is those jobs arent there to be had anymore because the guys that have them (like myself) can't make the next move. The big loco airlines are the ones messing things up by dangling the carrot directly in front of guys like you. As I said previously though, they are bound to do it because it saves them a fortune and gives them flexibility. They shouldn't be allowed to do it that's the point.

We all get on here, get wound up and bicker and fight amongst ourselves but really when you weigh it all up the existance of this current system has screwed us both, and many many others.
On the plus side you've got arguably the best type on your licence and you have some hours on type so all you can really do is take the Berlin gig and hope to get back to into easy next spring. In the longer term all any of us can hope for is that something transpires to put right this corrupt system.

As far as your other comment goes, I've been in this industry long enough to remember when Oxford produced pilots of a high standard and, although I can't openly discuss how, I have had extensive involvement working with easyJet, CTC and Oxford and I assure you that the standards of airmanship, accademic ability and even just plain old common sense, are not what they used to be in the current crop, yet even so the door remains wide open all the time the money keeps flowing.
Regardless, I do accept that a couple of my comments were written in anger and it is unfair to make assumptions and tar everybody with the same brush.

As you rightly picked up, I am only trying to make a positive contribution to your thread not just toss in hand grenades for the sake of it!!

Hope it works out for you and all of us.