A large charge sheet !
 

The EU was set up on the premis that within the EU there would be the free movement of goods, services and labour within the EU.

I operate within the laws of the country that I live in and pay the taxes due, for this I expect to be able to excersise my right to trade freely within the EU just like you can.

Nothing I do is illegal and if the law is changed then I will adjust my working practices to comply with the laws as they stand. I can't speak for others but I am a contractor who has a number of income streams and so fall outside the employee category for tax.

I work hard obay the law and provide for my family........ If that is selfish then so be it.

It would seem to me that you seem to think that you should have some sort of assured income and working practices........... Sorry to tell you that life is not like that, to be successfully in a free society you have to work at it very hard.

The route that you seem to want to take is one of a protectionist state, that was tried in eastern Europe and it was so good the government had to put a wall up to keep all the westerners out.......... Well that's what they told the people !

A&C,

I knew you wouldn't understand a thing when i mentioned morality.....
The model you defend, basically the Ryanair one, has shown its detrimental effects on our profession and T&Cs but please feel free to prove me wrong.

By the way I am very far from being a leftist but to my knowledge the economic turmoil and the decadence of our western system wasn't caused by Castro or North Corea but by greed and lack of morality.

What is legal in your country isn't necessarily legal in mine and it is immoral to exercise your own rights in someone elses country.

On a different note - I'm trying to get some more information on the 787 roles that Norwegian and/or agencies are advertising for.

What's the roster and pay like on that fleet? They seem to be asking for BKK based people, how many routes will there be from there? Commuting options to Europe?

Thanks!

dannyalliga

You're missing the point of my post. Brussels have set up things so that SI is paid to the country you're based in. As always, they seem to do things in the most perverse of ways. Remove the emotive RYR contractor stuff (I don't work for them - for the record). Consider the pilots employed (full-time) by DHL UK in LEJ. They now have to pay their SI in Germany. If they haven't moved families out to Leipzig and they lose their job, where do they claim their benefits? Prior to this ruling it was simple. Bog off back to UK, where you've paid in, and claim there. If they claim in Germany I believe they're only entitled to claim for 3 months (EU rule) unless actually resident. So if you pay in for quite some time, and not a local you don't get back anywhere near what you put in. Do they have enough SI paid in to receive the enhanced UK pension by paying into the German scheme? I don't know. If they are I bet it won't be straightforward to prove.

I also guess that UK based pilots from other EU countries will be delighted to hear that HMG has thought about rolling National Insurance (UK SI) into general taxation - they don't keep it separate in reality. You won't be paying for your insurance / pension, you'll be paying for chavs to visit you while on their holidays in your home-town, or space rockets in India, or any other item of crackpot spending HMG does.

The stuff about contractors and RYR is something we could probably all say something against. This thread is meant to be about providing information to prospective pilots for Norwegian (probably the next big contractor-based way of undermining industry Ts and Cs). Meanwhile you seem to have hi-jacked it in order to push a pro-EU line about payments of SI which doesn't really help people in their quest to find out how long a spoon to use when supping with this particular devil. Can you not just leave it for a different thread?

md11man
In a particular part of the sandpit, there are many finding the going tough, the flying hard and decisions erratic. Despite a general exodus from that place to any other place that'll have them, the Norwegian 787 contract in BKK doesn't seem to be one that (m)any go to. Read into that what you will....:E

Not that simple !
 

As stated above the problems come when no base is permanent, my base can change and has. So just like the people above who want their lives run by the EU and want their pensions and state health insurance devided up and administered by four or five different EU states I shall quote part of the EU legislation pulled from the UK government site................

If a very strict application of the new rule would harm a crew member's situation because their 'Home Base'often changes, and this would mean them frequently moving between the Social Security legislation of different states, then they or their employer can apply for a special agreement to keep the person subject to the legislation of a single state.

Boeingisgoing
 

I do totally understand the tax implications of all of this for a UK resident.

Now if you understood the way EU directives become law in individual EU states you would start to understand why the whole system is an unworkable mess.

Rather than venting your anger on the likes of Ryanair who just exploit the law as it stands you need to talk to the idiots at the EU who set up a system that ensures that each EU state has a slightly different interpretation of the same EU directive.

Setting aside taxation for now....has anyone applied, been offered or attended an interview recently?

Thanks.

A&C,

Ryanair does not exploit the law as it stands otherwise it wouldn't be under investigation as reported here: Today in the press - RT News
And this is not a one of a kind investigation, the French have done the same in Marseille.

It all revolves around the definition of " permanent establishment " , it will be interesting to see if Ryanair and alikes will manage to convince Italian judges in this case that around 40 aircraft and thousands of crew permanently based in Italy with plenty of domestic services have nothing to do with Italian laws, social security and taxes......

Dannyagilla
 

You are jumping the gun!. No one is guilty of an offence untill it has been proven in a court of law, at the moment Ryanair is only under investigation and this has yet to come to court.

Due to EU law you might will find that people working on Irish aircraft are subject to Irish regulation due to the regulations covering the free movement of Goods, services and labour within the EU.

I have no time for the protectionism of the regional Italian govenments who had a hand in the bankrupting of Debonair when they stopped the airline operating internaly in Italy, this decision was found to be unjust in court and the governments of the Italian states had to pay compensation, Unfortunatly the airline had gone bust and a lot of people ( including me) had lost their jobs.

I know that you want to find Ryanair guilty but you can't just yet !

Dannyagilla, What you claim to be illegal is simply not the case. You have nothing to back up your claims. The issues you claim are illegal and immoral are not just confined to aviation, multinationals from all sectors use the tax and employment loop holes in the law to maximize profits. Take the loop holes out and multinationals just move on leading to large scale unemployment. Governments won't do this. This issue is global. The Sunday Times yesterday claimed that Apple's foreign tax rate was below 2%.

Guys just wait and see, as I said it all revolves around the concept of "permanent establishment" and it will be for Ryanair and alikes to prove that they have absolutely nothing to do with Italy.
And it will be for the judges to determine if 10 bases, around 40 aircraft and 1000s of staff are absolutely ok to work and often live in a country where they ,according to Ryanair, are not subject to any local law.

I appreciate the concept A&C and I even support it, having said that I knew Adolf Eichmann was guilty well before the Israelis brought him to justice.

Ryanair's next move !
 

Let's assume that the Italian courts win the case against Ryanair, Dannyagilla opens the Champagne to celebrate a nail in the coffin of the evil Irish aviation empire but what is next ?

My guess is that Ryanair will chop and change the crews between bases taking advantage of the Frequent change of base part of the social tax legislation and confusing all the Europan income tax authority's with paperwork that they can't keep up with.

So who wins, not the tax authority's, not those who collect the social tax, not the crews who now are all on a floating base.............. Yes you guessed it Ryanair !! And all because those slow witted idiots in Brussels can't get one law to stick across the EU.

Here you can find your answer to your "floating base" concept, it comes from those idiots in Brusselles:

By the way, dear A&C, you talk about crews like if they were objects that can be moved around without any mutual agreement, sent to this base or another without asking their opinion....a perfect ryanair boy.
There are countries where workers must be treated like humans by law, unlike Ireland.....

Dannyagilla
 

I don't support the Ryanair model but am just speculating as to the airlines next move.

Dannyagilla your problem is just like the flat footed regulators at the EU you fail to see the holes in the legislation that Raynair walk through and then sit around wringing you hands, taking deep breaths and muttering on about moral issues.

You seem very keen on the EU, but the problem they have failed to address is that of harmonizing EU legislation, until the EU do something nothing will change.

From my point of view I hope the UK will withdraw from the over expensive joke that the EU is and just run with a free trade agreement with the EU.

A&C,
the EU,which I am absolutely not a supporter of, might have many legislation holes but the various countries don't.
In Italy, for example, it is illegal to be a self employed pilot as well as it is illegal to subcontract workers unless you are an officially approved contracting agency and even then such practices are limited in time.
Same story goes for France where these immoral practices have been fought and won in court.

Having the UK withdraw from the EU could also mean that companies like Easyjet or DHL UK would have to go home and start making a living from their own internal market instead of exploiting the markets away from home by basing aircraft and crews abroad.

Dannyagilla
 

So are you a supporter of the protectionism that two decades ago had the cost of flight between London and Scandinavia cost more than a flight to the USA ?

Is your beef really with Ryanair who do things efficiently and within the laws of the state it is registered (and all other EU states untill proved otherwise in court) or is it with the airlines in the southern European states who can't compeat in a free market without protectionisum from the government.

Contractors have been adviced that the 5-4-5-3 roster will seize on January 1st. It has already happened to those that were forced to LPA.

In the future it will be a variable roster with 12 days off pr month and one 3 day block + one 4 day block off.

Indeed, except . . changes to the contract must be by "mutual agreement"
( don't think that is likely) or, they must serve 1 mths notice on the current 3 year contract & hope we all apply for the new (un)enhanced one.


Added to the way they handled/allocated forced Base changes, the "new" interpretation of what constitutes an annual leave day, & the way tax & social security issues "may" be handled , I could envisage a scenario where the rush to get in the door reverts to one in the other direction, particularly by those who joined on the premise that commuting from one end of Europe to the other would be facilitated by the company providing free flights, AND a fixed pattern roster.

A&C,
You are most definitely on the payroll of MOL, listening to what you say is like attending one if those pathetic base visits where they keep on telling you how good they are and how you should be happy to work for them....

I'm against UNFAIR, IMMORAL and ILLEGAL working practices, do you understand that or should I remind you what a self employed job really should be? Or what an LTD director really should be doing?Or what it legally means having hundreds of aircraft,crew rooms and crews based permanently in other countries?
You rant about protectionism,ticket prices and inability of others to compete but there isn't a company more protectionist of its illegal status, that wants people to believe that it's normal to fly for 10€ and that fears a fair level of competition than Ryanair.

Norwegian is hiring cabin crew for their new Gatwick base, they talk about a permanent job, about a basic salary in local money etc......all things that an immoral and illegal company like Ryanair would avoid offering.
France has proven them illegal, Italy is next on line. Let's hope Others will follow.
Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA Cabin Crew - Cabin Crew London Gatwick

Aeroprofessional sounds like another agency to me. Not exactly full-time and employed with Norwegian then. Or?

Dannyagilla
 

You could not be more wrong about me being in the pay of MOL ! You are mistaking me seeing the situation as it is for loyalty to Ryanair/MOL.

I see the employment/ contract situation clearly as it is as we speak, I don't confuse it with what I would like it to be.

The big problem with pilots is that a few years back a few rich kids decided to buy type ratings to get ahead in the business, it worked for the first few but quite quickly the bean counters decided that along with the seats in the cabin they could sell the right hand seat to some young hopeful.

The Ryanair situation is the distillation of that attitude and only when the young and misinformed stop paying for all their training will the situation change.

The first indications of things changing is that the banks in the UK will no longer give unsecured loans for pilot training, along with the realization that the job is not what it was will result in a pilot shortage over the next ten years or so.

Only when this bites and airlines have to invest their own money in pilot training will airlines start to offer a remuneration package aimed at retaining pilots, at the moment they don't need to because some sucker will come along and pay to become a first officer.

From the captain perspective we can see the light at the end of the tunnel with Ryanair taking type rated captains and only asking for a training bond rather than the money up front as was the case until quite recently.

I have to ask, did you pay for a type rating?

Deafening silence. . . . . . :hmm:

Danny, before you start trying to sing the praises of NAS (in an attempt to make Ryanair look even worse than they undoubtedly are) . . . . . . . .


The LGW job is via Aero Professional, who have offerd some of the worst contract terms for pilots I have seen this last few years.

The NAS Spanish based CC are on a rolling 6mth contract through Addeco, a well known bunch of Spanish parasites who successfully prevent employees achieving full time contracts.

Most NAS CC based in ARN are contractors on a 1 year rolling contract.

NAS CC based in HEL are contractors working through an Estonian/Polish (depending on the contract) but actually Norwegian "false company" similar to the "It's not really Ryanair it's Brookfield" set up. ARPI Estonia/Poland (nope, actually good old Norway)

Doesn't make FR any better, but please , stop telling us that Bjorn Kjos is really Father Xmas :=

A&C,
it's the first post of yours that I fully agree with, pay to fly kids are one of the main causes of this race to the bottom.
No I did not pay for any type rating nor am I paying any accountant I didn't chose nor am I buying uniforms from the approved tailor nor am I ever buying anything onboard nor ever talking anyone into flying with Ryanair....it's my little war against the system:E:E

captplaystation,
I know very well that NAS isn't a dream job and that the Ryanair methods are contagious (Easyjet flexicrew, NAS contractors,Wizzair dodgy contracts in Switzerland, Volotea FR alikes.....) but at least ,in the LGW case, they are recruiting people giving them a fixed salary and paid leave which are unheard of in Ryanair.
The last CC hired through one of the FR scam companies are making 800€/month after paying 3000 for a course after which they can't even open the cockpit door....

Any news about Rishworth applications?

I made it in august and didn't hear from them so far.

> 4000 hours on B737 as F/O

Dannyagilla
 

I just want to get this clear do you fly for Ryanair ?

A&C,
of course I do fly for them, I thought it was obvious.
Who do you fly for by the way?

Dannyagilla in answer to your question I fly a number of types and do work for three or four companies.

Due to a posable conflict of interest between them I will not say exactly who they are, one thing I will say it is not Ryanair, also should point out my aviation activitys are not confined to flying but these activities require me to have current B737, A320, MEP, SEP & SPA/IR ratings current as well as maintenance licences.

I have indirectly flown for Ryanair but only aircraft that have been contracted in via another operator.

A&C I have also flown elsewhere before and have a few ratings behind me..... starting with the F16 onwards....but I guess this is not the topic.

You are very clearly a management pilot somewhere and your focus is on the task to be completed more than the methods to carry out the task, you dislike the pay to fly cadet "cancer" but are very happy to let experienced captains fly as disguised contractors or liable LTD directors justifying immoral working practices in the name of the free market, the same free market that gave birth to the cadet business.
It is called hypocrisy at my latitudes....
Hypocrisy + corporate greed + immoral working practices = decline

Dannyagilla
 

The first thing is that from a pilot point of view I am NOT one of the management, on the maintenance side I am a director of the companies that I work with.

I see your objection to contractors as a political one because you ae happy to live in a place were the state considers almost anyone as an employee and taxes you on that basis, the state I live in let's peope like me with multiple income streams who don't work just for one company pay tax ( both income and social) in the same way as a company.

This way of working is very good for me when I work within the tax system in my state of residenceall they want is their cut of my income at the end of the year, your problem is that your state of residence takes a different view of the way you make your income and wants to control it much more tightly.

I cand see this immorality issue at all I work and I pay my taxes that are due in my state of residence, I do operate out of other EU states but don't burden those states in any way, so why should they tax me if I am not a burden to them or can't have any representation in the way they spend my taxes ?

As I have said all along the problem is that the EU has failed to put into place regulations that are uniform across the EU and what is not lawfull in your state of residence is lawfull in by state of residence.

You can't call me immoral for working legally within the tax framework of the state I reside in, if you don't like the way I work then get your representatives at the EU to change the law across the EU.

If it is a good idea to be controled but the Unites States of Europe is another issue.

A&C,
you talk like one of those mediocre management guys who rants on about profit and competition while failing to realize that you'll go nowhere if your task is more important than the people who are supposed to carry it out.
Especially if you keep talking about your personal situation to 3000 FR pilots who have nothing in common with your case.

In my country,just like in most EU countries, self employment is well defined by LAWS and one of those basic definitions is that a self employed person is free to work for different clients and free to manage their own time just to name a couple; well a FR pilot isn't free to work for others (obviously because that would limit his available flight hours) as well as he isn't in control of his working times nor annual leave.
At my latitudes it is called employment scam, if in your country of residence it is OK then fine....but please don't try to export it to my country of residence.

But FR has probably realized they are at fault here and have changed their plans forcing new joiners and those with expiring contracts to setup LTD and become company directors; well in my country of residence this is a legal scam for so many reasons that I will not even waste my time trying to explain.
Is this OK where you live?Fine but again...don't try to export it to my cointry of residence.

By the way if you carry out your business in YOUR country of residence I have nothing to object, it is when you reside in your fantastic country but carry out your work in MINE while applying YOUR rules that things become immoral.
Is that clear enough?

By the way I will not waste my time complaining to some EU institution run by bankers and corporate lobbies, I will simply contact my local tax and police authorities and report anything I deem illegal and immoral according to the laws of my country of residence.

T&C, Assesment
 

Hi!!

I am considering to apply for Norwegian for the LGW...do you know the full details of the contract??
Has anyone done the Norwegian assesment recently? if so, could you tell us what they are looking for?

Many thanks
:D

Yeah heard today from Parc assessments ongoing. Anybody been any tips to prepare should I be lucky enough to go would be greatly appreciated

And your location is MONACO?:E:ok:

Defacto......that had not gone unnoticed !

Guys,

Taxation issues aside, has anyone who applied recently had any response from NAS, with the exception of the standard acknowledgement email? Has anyone emailed PARC etc. with their CV too?

boeingisgoing
well said.

Did the applications for Norwegian at LGW already close? Can't seem to find the application on Parc or Norwegians website

Thanks

Anyone heard anything from NAS? Me...not a dickybird since their acknowledgement email 4 weeks ago. I'm wondering if their HR Vultures are circling overhead SAS HQ...there (sadly) may be a few Pilots they can mop up if things go Pear Shaped.