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Ditto :ok:
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Fingers crossed for everyone!
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Potential news of a Granite deal coming to fruition sounds positive. It will also help BA's PR.
It does however need to be seen in the context of the financial strength of those buying it, i.e. how much funding is actually being invested, as none of us want to see the Newco go bust six months down the line and staff negotiating with the administrator for any redundancy. |
The discrimination against regional/loco pilots is not new, indeed there was an article in the BALPA Log at the time of the disposal of BA Connect to Flybe entitled BA and Apartheid which raised these issues.
Having said that, the attitude of the BA guys on here, seems a lot more positive compared to the attitude back then, so it seems a bit harsh to criticise them for welcoming their new colleagues. As has also been pointed out (as yet at least) the baby and regional guys have not been notified as being under threat of redundancy, and if suitable buyers are found, then there's no issue. If however things don't work out and redundancy becomes a reality, and at the same time BA is still recruiting externally, then that is a very serious issue that BALPA, and all of us who are members, whether as BA, (ex) BMI mainline, or any other part of the pilot community, need to be prepared to take a stand against. |
Have the T&Cs for the former BMI mainline pilots that are joining BA been announced yet?
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If however things don't work out and redundancy becomes a reality, and at the same time BA is still recruiting externally, then that is a very serious issue that BALPA, and all of us who are members, whether as BA, (ex) BMI mainline, or any other part of the pilot community, need to be prepared to take a stand against. |
Have the T&Cs for the former BMI mainline pilots that are joining BA been announced yet? |
I'm all for baby and regional guys being offered opportunities to become assessed for DEP positions, however the train of thought that BA has some moral obligation to provide direct entry a la mainline is a step beyond. Ideally baby and regional get sold off, minimising disruption and anxiety to the pilots in both organisations. IAG aren't integrating baby and regional into BA, therefore they have no legal obligation to provide new positions. BA have people within their holding pool which they have already selected. ALL of these people applied to BA long before the intention to purchase bmi was even announced. If you WANT to join BA then apply and hoop jump like the rest of us. I'd be surprised if IAG management came to your rescue, especially given the amount of redundancies occurring within the bmi group external to the overall pilot body. I could of course be wrong, however I believe offering regional and baby pilots first refusal on assessments is pretty fair.
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callsign kilo
Just playing devils advocate...but then by what right are bmi mainline pilots getting direct entry into BA? They haven't passed any selection for BA either and are jumping ahead of people waiting in the hold pool who have passed the selection. |
TUPE and employment law thats why. You could also say that given that they currently operate in and out of heathrow on the aircraft ba will be using, on the routes they will initially fly and that they have been assessed both by bmi and the authority as competent that they are suitable to fulfil the position, or would a 1/2 hour sim provide a better assessment. :p
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Well said Van G...dont forget that BA will be having a good look at Training records/Personal files of some of those BMI people who have had difficulties in the past, not so much with handling issues but CRM issues They did this in 1992 with a few of the Dan Air LGW B734 people to weed out those with CRM issues. Watch this space.
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Given bmi's reputation for training within the industry it is highly unlikely that there will be many rouge pilots amoungst them but Flap 80 is right I am sure training records will be looked at and maybe some will be singled out for additional training / assessment during their integration. However TUPE is legally binding and these guys have all passed bmi assessment which is no easy task either.
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"Rouge pilots?" I think BA would employ them regardless of their colour :-)
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Rogue..... What a numpty :ouch::D
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bex 88. I was asking with reference to a previous post and playing devils advocate.
But whilst I'm here, peoples backs are up at some bmi mainline pilots not just because of their selfish narrow minded posts on here. It stems from the most ridiculously insensitive and arrogant behaviour witnessed on the crew bus, crew room etc and I guess this forum provides an area to vent that frustration. Crews endlessly discussing seniority issues sitting right next to people who have no idea if they have a job at the end of summer, or even in a few months time. People joking about getting hats... Yes I am happy you have a job. Yes you have a right to be happy, but back slapping right now in the public domain and aforementioned crew room/bus idiocy is at best insensitive given the uncertainty of your colleagues futures. And just because our jobs aren't officially 'at risk' are you really suggesting there isn't a real and immediate threat of redundancy to us? Because I assure you there is. So all the best with your future. But please get down of your high horse, save me the TUPE lectures and show a little humility. |
You asked a question and I gave a straight answer. As for crews joking about wearing hats on the crew bus etc you are right it shows a complete lack of empathy and regard for other peoples positions. Seniority discussions are relevant but again showing a bit of sensitivity and not discussing this in public would be very welcome to me as well! If people are doing that you should say something as it may help focus the mind of others. The tread topic though is bmi mainline pilots made redundant and some are in a even more time critical position than maybe yourself.
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callsign kilo Just playing devils advocate...but then by what right are bmi mainline pilots getting direct entry into BA? They haven't passed any selection for BA either and are jumping ahead of people waiting in the hold pool who have passed the selection. Someone also suggested that a training department with highly respected standards is unlikely to harbour many rogue pilots -It's simply not the case, I can assure you! You can lead a horse to water, but on many occasions it simply won't drink. Many people, once conditioned, can also play the game a handful of times, when required to do so. However new and unfamiliar surroundings can often see them become unstuck. Just something I've noted in my travels. |
Just been talking to an old friend in bmi Mainline. The pension situation sounds shocking. It would seem that some people are likely to loose up to 40% of their pension since Lufty dumped the final salary pension in the government run emergency fund. The PPF was intended to provide some measure of protection to employees of companies that had gone bust - not the case here.
How is it that the German former parent company who are worth billions and the new owner who is also worth billions can get away with this? It is a scandalous situation and it sounds like some pilots are champing at the bit, ready to take some sort of action over it. In pension fund terms the black hole is not that big... |
I am not sure why IAG should be responsible for the pension blackhole, they bought BMI with the proviso that Lufty would keep the pension liability. Indeed there would have no deal if IAG had to pick up this liability. How Lufty then manages to duck it's obligations to the pension while still being solvent is a mystery.
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The Sunday Times(29 Apr) has an article related to the Bmi pension issue - makes for an interesting read.
John Smith jumped up from his armchair as the letter box snapped shut. The pilot rushed into the hallway of his Hampshire home and tore open a letter from his employer, BMI British Midland. As Smith (not his real name) read the letter from Clive Grimley, chairman of the pension trustees, an awful truth dawned on him: his plans for a comfortable retirement had been dashed. Lufthansa, BMI’s owner, was washing its hands of the carrier’s pension scheme. A deficit of £180m (€220m) meant there would not be enough to pay the promised pensions. Instead, the German airline was dumping the liabilities on the Pension Protection Fund (PPF), which is normally used to rescue the retirement plans of insolvent companies. Lufthansa would also provide an £84m sweetener to make up for some of the shortfall in members’ pension savings. Smith, in his early 50s, had been looking forward to a retirement income of £43,000 a year — he reckons he will now be lucky to get £27,000. “Most of the pilots are in a state of despair and anger,” he said. The PPF is bad news for well-paid workers, such as pilots, because it guarantees a maximum of only £34,000 a year for those who have not yet retired. It does not cover most inflation-linked increases to pensions, or widows’ or dependants’ benefits. This is the first time a large, solvent company has been allowed to dump liabilities into the PPF and walk away. The controversial deal emerged this month as Lufthansa sold BMI to International Airlines Group, owner of British Airways. IAG wanted BMI’s Heathrow operations but not its pension liabilities. It received a huge discount on the £172.5m headline price after agreeing to take on BMI’s regional and low-cost arms, for which Lufthansa had failed to find a buyer. The German airline’s jettisoning of the scheme has left pension experts and unions baffled because Lufthansa had pledged to support it after the sale to IAG. Jim McAuslan, general secretary of Balpa, the pilots’ union, has written to Dame Anne Begg, who chairs the Commons work and pensions committee, asking for an investigation. He has also urged Vince Cable, the UK business secretary, to look into the matter. McAuslan fears other companies will use similar tactics to get out of their pension commitments. “This is a solvent, gold-standard German company transferring a business to a gold-standard British company, and in the process the pension has been ditched under the pretence of insolvency,” he said. So, what happened? Lufthansa proposed to continue supporting the BMI pension scheme by setting up a British-based shell company, with no assets, to take over funding responsibility. The Germans would pump £10m a year into the scheme for 25 years. This was blocked by the Pensions Regulator because it was similar to the funding structure it had approved for Polestar, the printing company, which had a deficit of more than £500m. The Polestar scheme collapsed and had to be rescued by the PPF last year because the shell company had insufficient cash to make up a shortfall. The Pensions Regulator sounded the alarm on Lufthansa’s proposal because the Germans would have had no legal obligation to continue supporting the BMI scheme if something went wrong in the future. The watchdog decided that a safer option for the BMI workers would be to transfer the airline’s scheme to the PPF. Lufthansa was desperate to end its exposure to BMI, which it took control of in 2009 for about £300m. Since then, it has struggled to turn round the loss-maker — it is estimated to have lost more than £1 billion on the investment. Lufthansa confirmed it had proposed using a shell company to manage the pension scheme, but said the regulator had rejected the proposal because it was deemed too much of a risk. John Ralfe, a pensions consultant, asked why the regulator had not used more forceful tactics to persuade Lufthansa to take on the liabilities. “The regulator has very strong powers that it appears to choose not to use,” Ralfe said. Sources claimed the regulator and BMI’s trustees felt under pressure from Lufthansa to seal an agreement on the scheme. If they had not done so, the deal with IAG could have collapsed, raising the threat of the Germans pulling the plug on their British subsidiary. Under this doomsday scenario, BMI would be made insolvent and the scheme would have ended up in the PPF anyway — but without the £84m sweetener. Jim Snee, a former BMI pilot who retired in 2008, said the debacle had been a “rude awakening” for members of the scheme. It also sent out a warning to younger people about the value of saving into a workplace pension, he said. “Why would you invest your life savings in a scheme run by nefarious people who aren’t properly policed?” |
Struggling employers get lifeline on pensions as funds crisis forces regulator to take action
A financial lifeline will be thrown this week to about 350 companies struggling to fund deluxe final salary pension schemes against the backdrop of a faltering economy. Without the regulator's decision to relax its approach to the funding of pension deficits – estimated to total about £255billion – it is feared that many scheme sponsors would be in danger of failing to meet their pension promises. Struggling employers get lifeline on pensions as funds crisis forces regulator to take action | Mail Online BA deal can't stop BMI pension scheme being shifted into protection fund | Mail Online Why is this is not enough to make the trustees go back to the drawing board with DLH and the Pension Regulator for a review now the regulator is 'being more pragmatic' ? Meanwhile DLH are still trading,still flying into the U.K, and seem to be doing rather well. Boeing delivers monster 747-8 jet to Lufthansa... with a wingspan of over 225 feet | Mail Online |
Van G:
"Just playing devils advocate...but then by what right are bmi mainline pilots getting direct entry into BA? They haven't passed any selection for BA either and are jumping ahead of people waiting in the hold pool who have passed the selection. " Quite simply, because the BA pilot community were given the opportunity by BA Management to decide whether they wanted bmi integrated in to BA or kept separate as a new lower cost version of BA at LHR. Down to their contract scope clause giving them the right to fly BA aircraft at LHR. And the BA pilot community voted to have bmi integrated rather than face the present BA probably stagnate while the new low cost BA born out of bmi attracted the future growth opportunities. Anyone who has been in midland for some time and has hung on (and that's most who are left at present) hasn't exactly been lying on a bed of roses. I think you'll also find that the hundreds of pilots from Northeast, Cambrian, BEA/BOAC, BCAL, Dan Air, Citiflyer and a few other decent UK operations that I've probably missed from the mists of time that have all been absorbed in to BA, have also never been subject to a BA selection procedure. Are they any less as professional pilots ? For non bmi group people - there's very little connection (except at the very top of the business pyramid) between the three elements of the group, and Regional operates quite independently out of the Aberdeen HQ, having been borne out of Business Air. Yes, there has been some sensitivity at LHR at Regional coming in and taking over a fair chunk of bmi mainline flying for the last few years. If mainline pitched up at ABZ and started taking over Regional routes there would be similar concerns at the loss of promotions and opportunities. But if you speak to your group colleagues you'll find a lot of common empathy and understanding about all of our futures. The common bond is the way in which we were all treated under the pre-DLH ownership. I very much hope that Regional can fall back in to the hands of parts of the Business Air management team and once again thrive under a dynamic and focussed team north of the border. |
BMI mainline pilots made redundant
I know of several BMI pilots who have failed BA selection on more than one occasion. I wonder how the recruitment team feel about welcoming these guys on board? Does it now make a mockery of the whole selection process ?
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I know of several BMI pilots who have failed BA selection on more than one occasion...Does it now make a mockery of the whole selection process ? As for the bmi pension scheme, if past performance is anything to go by, the vast majority of the bmi pilot workforce will capitulate without so much as a whimper, let alone anything even remotely resembling a fight. As usual, not surprisingly, BALPA will eventually walk away from the problem due to lack of decent support (amongst other well known reasons, of course). Come on! Prove me wrong! Stick up for yourselves, just for once. :suspect: |
Prelude01
I don't think it makes a mockery of the situation. It was just an awesome opportunity for BA at Heathrow where new slots are very few and far between. At the end of the day BA were never gonna say....geez, I wish we could have those 42 slots but lets not bid if we have to take the pilots too. There is a saying in the States....the fleas come with the dog. I'm not saying that BMI pilots are fleas - what i am saying is it's not a perfect set up but it's workable. Why's it not perfect? Well everyone will have a story to tell by the time the dust settles. For my two peneth worth....I really enjoy the people I fly with on the Airbus at Heathrow and would dislike witnessing a number of individuals pitch up and attempt to ruin the vibe because they felt slighted. That said, I'm sure that 95%+ of our new colleagues will be great and the beauty of Bidline is that you can ditch the trips with the arseholes once you've flown with them once and got the measure of them. Indeed I do it already with one or two current BA wallies. Welcome on board. Somebodys said it already but allow me to reiterate, first beers on me. CB |
It's just ridiculous harping on about BA selection for bmi pilots.They have proven their worth and obviously ability to operate an airliner. This is where selection processes breakdown because they apply a broadbrush - OK make it ridiculously hard for little johnny out of Oxford, but you should n't apply the same criteria to experienced pilots.
I did both Britannia and first choice selection in the same 2 weeks, I passed one and apparantly failed the other. So i was good enough to fly one IT 757, but not the other airline's.I mean really, WTF ? I wish good luck to the good ones at bmi. I hope your welcome to BA is warmer than the astraeus folks received in some quarters ... |
I did both Britannia and first choice selection in the same 2 weeks, I passed one and apparantly failed the other. So i was good enough to fly one IT 757, but not the other airline's.I mean really, WTF ? It amazes me that there are professional pilots out there that don't understand this, to paraphrase: WTF? |
I think (hope) it's pretty much a given that experienced pilots can fly the aeroplane. The selection process is more about weeding out difficult individuals with whom one would not wish to share a flight deck. In my years of flying I've not come across many people who really struggle with the aircraft. Come across plenty of knobs though - just ask any easyjet gatwick FO about the "3 B's".
Again I should be at pains to point out that no company is without these individuals and I'm not for one minute suggesting BMI has more than its fair share. I do hope however that whatever the final solution to seniority et al (of which lets face it we have no control), we can all live happily under one roof without some days out becoming a real drag. Preferably with the baby and regional guys included. |
To continue..... I know of many BA pilots that have also failed selection
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Former BMI pilots joining BA will have to do groundschool, sim training, LPC and final command check/line check.
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Yes, juan. I get that different companies are looking for different attributes , however can you not see the similarity in what first choice and Thomson do. It's ancient history, but I'd be working for Thomson anyway now, and in fact have a tui pension through FC. Furthermore I've flown for pretty much all the uk airlines on an ACMI basis anyway...
No, I don't believe the criteria is much different in this case. It merely comes down to how far the HR dept is trying to stake a claim for it's very existence by exerting it's authority over a role that could be undertaken by management pilots. |
The fact is through circumstance Bmi guys have another door into BA and good on them. Some will have passed the selection and some will not have but thats life. I think if people are upset as they are holding then find another company to go too. I'm in limbo at the moment due to this takeover and it is a pain but the doors will open again and I will be eagerly waiting. Good luck to all of you that are starting with BA and I hope all the other issues are sorted for you. Hope to see you down route when hopefully I join BA.
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It's just ridiculous harping on about BA selection for bmi pilots.They have proven their worth and obviously ability to operate an airliner. This is where selection processes breakdown because they apply a broadbrush - OK make it ridiculously hard for little johnny out of Oxford, but you shouldn't apply the same criteria to experienced pilots If there are Pilot redundancies within the BA Group at a subsidiary, they still have to go through the BA selection process again to keep a job, along with all of the external applicants. As a result, a fully qualified experienced type rated Boeing 767 Pilot could be out the door (at expense to BA) and put on the dole, whilst on the very same day a cadet pilot or low houred turboprop or military guy is offered a contract. This is BA Corporate policy and yes it happens. You would have thought groundschool, sim training, LPC and line check would be sufficient for internal employees, just as BMI mainline pilots are receiving. I guess the same has happened in the past with BMI and its subsidiaries, but I dont recall BMI mainline recruiting whilst laying off employed pilots elsewhere in the group? |
Allow me to clarify something: bmi is not full of pilots who've failed the BA selection process. bmi pilots are, in the main, people who like flying for a smallish, friendly outfit where you can get to know a significant proportion of your pilot and cabin crew colleagues. Those pilots hell-bent on flying big aircraft around the world will have stayed for a while then headed off to Virgin, BA or the desert.
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Good luck to everyone involved.
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" As a result, a fully qualified experienced type rated Boeing 767 Pilot could be out the door (at expense to BA) and put on the dole, whilst on the very same day a cadet pilot or low houred turboprop or military guy is offered a contract. This is BA Corporate policy and yes it happens."
Really?! When did this last happen? When BA started recruitment again they were looking for type rated pilots initially, would hardly fit in with your assertion that they'd lay off type rated pilots only to recruit non-type rated ones! When were BA last recruiting and laying off crews at the same time? I think there's a bit too much 'expert' comment on this forum, and we all know what the definition of an expert is....... |
Correct CF. But without adequate representation on the continent for OS there isn't a lot BALPA could do about it to mitigate those lay offs.
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OS are a French company as I understand it so not sure what BALPA involvement there should have been, if any.
Given the BALPA history with OS I don't think there was much appetite to try to help either. |
Despite what you might think are the rights and wrongs of it IAG views all of the airlines in the group as seperate, just as BA did before it. If you view the various entities as connected you are making a mistake. BA were not laying off crews, Openskies were. Although you might wish that the various airlines were linked, I suppose thats partly what the Openskies dispute was about in 2008, that boat has left the harbour and it won't be coming back soon. There are many comments about what BALPA should do about it, we are in a new IR environment, look at the recent changes in Spanish employment law enabling changes to T's and C's without consultation. The employers are ahead of the unions on this one I hope BALPA can continue to pick its way through all this to enable a better future for all of us in the future. I havn't decided whether to hold my breath yet!
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I wasn't inferring that BALPA would have been able to exert any pressure on a different outcome. However, having no representation certainly doesn't help (it being in the EU or not), the company can do whatever it likes. Hence laying off people in OS.
For the record, this has never happened in BA or it's former guises. Primarily due to innovative solutions and everyone pulling together to provide job security/stability. Something we can be very proud of. The OS sentiment was one created by the company unfortunately. Us 'contaminating' the set-up didn't make for comfortable reading... (but that's a whole different subject, one that's done to death) I was merely replying to Atropos/CF/Spider-man posts. |
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