CTC Killing the INDUSTRY!! eJ, Monarch, Thomson and ????
 

Hi all,

I'm sure everyone is aware of what's happening to the industry but a lot of folk still have rose tinted glasses on, that includes new guys coming in at the bottom and experienced folk out flying the line.

It's time to wake up and stand UNITED or leave the likes of CTC and AIRLINE MANAGEMENT to truly kill this "PROFESSION" what a great career this is turning out to be...

The following email is about a year old... don't shoot the messenger and make of it what you will...

My interpretation... CTC coffers/bank balance get richer while the young naive cadet gets screwed over from behind working his ARSE/ASS off on the line!!!!



"Dear CTC Wings/ATP Pilots,

As an organisation, we are in deed a little cautious when it comes to announcing new ideas or initiatives;however, when we do go forth, the concepts are well researched, innovative and effective. When we devised the ATP programme, that concept was unheard of in the industry. When we unveiled the Cadet programme some 8 years ago, the degree of selection, under writing of the training and the bond repayment mechanisms were totally novel. Our competitors have now followed suit.

FlexiCrew is a response to the current economic climate, but more importantly, it is what some airlines want. Most of our Customer Airlines (not just the Wings Partner Airlines) are looking for a way to make their operations leaner and more financially viable. Crew costs are a significant part of an airlines cost base and the seasonality within some airlines leads to in efficiencies on occasion. Of course this is not the case for all airlines, but we have listened to a great many who would like to see an initiative such as FlexiCrew.

FlexiCrew can be used to provide airlines with complete crewing solutions from training captains, low hour pilots through to cabin crew if required. As I mentioned in my last update, it is intended for type rated pilots; however, we did not want to exclude Wings pilots be they in training or indeed, already in airline jobs. This goes for Cadets and ATP alike. It is fair to say that the climate has changed in aviation in the UK and most of Europe for that matter. I'm not sure anyone could have predicted the speed and severity of the recession, but it is important that CTC responds with solutions. There is some speculation at the moment as to the structure of things to come. Will airlines be hiring in 2013?

Will Cadets and ATP pilots be offered type ratings and line training? Will those pilots then move into employment seamlessly as in previous years? Unfortunately my crystal ball is no bigger or better than yours and I cannot answer those questions for certain. Ultimately it is the airline's decision. However, we can influence, and we do. In providing initiatives and forward thinking ideas, we can assist the airlines with finding cost effective solutions AND at all times look for the very best opportunity for you. The last part of that sentence might seem a little idealistic, but it's not. CTC Wings success has been built on the reputation of providing highly skilled,capable and personable pilots to our customers. We are able to do that because we find the best candidates - you!

You come to us because we will provide you with the best possible chance of a placement. This is a three way relationship between you, the airlines and CTC. As you are aware, we have recently commenced xx Cadets on the Airbus TR and yesterday, easyJet confirmed that xx have joined the airline in the New Year. As is always the case, the airline cannot commit beyond the 6 month period. It is a fact that those Cadets might not be kept on after the 6 months, but it is also possible that they might. What is for certain, however, is that they will have completed a TR on an Airbus and will have gained 300 to 400 hours on type. Of the 32 pilots who were recently stood down by eJ and Monarch -some have secured positions with eJ Swiss, some have passed selection for GulfAir (no help from CTC).

For the remainder, we are in discussions with other Middle Eastern airlines, Far Eastern and Australasian airlines, plus some European carriers.These discussions are not casual chats; they are in depth negotiations that are looking to secure the best possible packages for those pilots. Most important are the ongoing discussions that are taking place with eJ, to secure a return to the airline for those pilots who were stood down. There is a strong proposal for those guys to return to eJ, albeit to a base possibly outside the UK. When we reach the right point in the negotiations with the airline, we will, of course,contact all of those pilots (ATP and Cadets) and discuss in detail what the options are.

I have gone into this detail because it is very important to understand the facts. FlexiCrew is merely offering additional options to CTC Wings pilots and is not at all mandatory. CTC cannot predict the nature of placements into the future with some operators, and more than that, it would be wise to anticipate a possible change to the way in which some airlines will look to crew their aircraft in the future. There is a real possibility that eJ will be re-engaging those pilots who were recently stood down, though it might be outside the UK. Whatever the economic climate and whatever state the industry might be in, CTC will act relentlessly when it comes to representing you and seeking opportunities for you. We continue to be flexible, innovative committed to providing solutions to the industry.

All the best,

L"

If they had not gone via CTC where would these pilots be? Sat at home with no ours on a modern jet...

Or paid money to go and fly at a 3rd world operator?

At least they have gained some valuable experience with a "proper" operator.

I don't lik the situation... But the industry is changing and I think your better of being in bed with CTC / easyJet than finding your own path with EagleJet and a banned airline in Indonesia.

So re-hashing a poorly reproduced email that is purported to be "about a year old," is your idea of "waking up"? I don't know about ""shooting the messenger" but given your tardiness in keeping up with discussion on this subject (of which there has been a lot,) I am not sure you really are a "messenger."

Oh Dear...Not again..
 

Here we go again.. another post containing RANDOM capitals, underscoring and BOLD type from someone peddling an OLD story and wanting to change THE world......

1 IT'S not an industry my friend...

2 All of the folks who have paid a fortune for their training and licences...and PTF in many cases... have made a lot of bad decisions and
choices.

3 Your energy would be better directed against the many training establishments which have, for many years, promoted their training courses as almost guarantees of prompt, prestigious and lucrative airline employment

4 It also must be recorded here that there are very many unemployed fATPL holders out there of unspeakably poor quality who will most likely never secure employment at the pointy end.

5 Maybe those who are so disgruntled should try to rearrange the following words...

kitchen...heat...if..like...don't... you...the...in..out..get...:ugh:

This is quite possibly the most pertinent point of all!

The old system of Cadets and selective enrolement meant that if you were rubbish and not up to standard you got thrown out of the training system. The Cadet system was run along similar lines to the Military (In most cases the instructors/examiners were ex-mil, look at Prestwick!).

Now the ability to complete a course, if the student is average/below average, is the ability to continue to pay for it. Admittedly the atrocious are still (hopefully) weeded out but the 'poor' still continue to follow through to the end of their 'course' and 6 months with a carrier to be bounced out for the next 'cash paying' co-pilot. The abiliity to pass a course is, in many ways, no longer dictated by ability more by how deep the applicants pockets are.

As a friend of mine who works as a TSC for one of these placement airlines says, he is flying single pilot in many cases. Always with a new, inexperinced, if enthusiastic, Co-pilot who struggles with SOP's, aircraft handling and lack of familiarity with destination airfields. He then coaches them through 6 months with almost certain knowledge that they will not be given a contract. He has complained to the company that it is both extremely hard work for him and very unfair on the co-pilots.

Sadly the rot will not stop from the Trainees as they are only trying to get a rung up the ladder, understandably so. The movement needs to come from the CAA who should be taking a stance on airlines making profit from passengers being flown by a trainee who is not being paid to fly commercially. Unfortunately, as with the EASA FTL's and BALPA's weak willed stance, the CAA/BALPA are toothless dogs that roll over at the first sign of conflict.

Until we have our own 'Colgan' the public will want seats cheaper per mile than a local bus and won't give a damn who is poling them around the sky at Mach 0.79 with no option to 'pull over to the side of the road'.

Just wondering..
 

...could this be the same Future TP (Test Pilot? 230 hours? Oh please!) who, throughout 2009 and 2010 was chasing, enquiring and lusting after CTC selection... but in 2012 is trying to crucify them? Could there be a slight whiff of rejection/failure here?

Sorry young fellow but your immaturity shines through your posts and threads... Haha..LOL...Haha..Mate...guys... Haha...LOL..

You are, or profess to be, a prospective professional pilot...Maybe the time has come to behave and communicate like one! :ugh:

His motives are largely irrelevant, he has a point though.

I'm sure that anyone who has attended one of the Flyer shows, that have been going for some time now, will have seen the huge effort CTC put on the 'capture' element of their marketing. Any prospective student will be bombarded by lots of tantalising facts and figures. An analytical mind would rapidly see costs/vs income in EZY et al and believe this is a quick one stop shop to success and, in time, command.
At the end of the day it is up to the student to do their homework, and use such events to check on all available options and decide what is best for them. We live in the 'have now' generation. It really is no surprise. CTC are very good at marketing.

Actually I think it is a number of factors combined that has changed the industry in the manner complained about.

a) CTC, b) LoCo, c) the Internet, d) fuel costs and e) (which has always been there) job perception.

I understand the need for cheap pilots during hard economic times, and I'm not really going to argue that. But the question is when the economy is back to normal and recovered, will there be an end to flexi crew and airlines doing their best to get pilots as cheap as possible? Probably not.

In that letter it sounded to me like they were indirectly saying that flexi crew will become the norm one day and pilots can enjoy crap pay and will be released when they're not needed. Surely there's no way that can happen, how will people survive for food?

Am I hopeful in saying I hope the future of pilots returns to some normality? I don't mean sponsorships or it becoming easy to get a job but when one does get a job they are paid above minimum wage and aren't told to go away during winter.

I wish I could see the future.

I agree
 

My friend died last year trying to build hours the 'classic' way as he hated the likes of CTC. He spent 9 years flying with (he was cabin crew) Captains that believed in the grass roots of aviation and NOT CTC. Going the classic way FI,Turbo prop etc. We all know that BA etc need their cadets but when the greedy individuals who never paid for their own training start to cross the line and move the goal posts, then there is a problem. Flexicrew is a disgusting direction and makes this industry on par with banking. I don't question the ability of the individuals that went to CTC or CTC training but when Airlines only take from them its a sad pathetic situation.
He died a hero and with principles, the same principles that many Captains have but money is the game and it is for CTC my advice don't pay CTC avoid them. Go classic.

That is completely the wrong approach IMHO. Treating those you work with as 'Scabs' effectively will never, ever be a soloution.


Whilst those who are willing to spend thousands and thousands of pounds in the belief that they will get a 'leg up' the ladder are a part of the problem they are not the biggest part of the problem.

The whole training system needs to be grass roots regulated from the bottom to the top. The FAA's idea of introducing a mandatory 1500 hour minimum will put pressure on the P2F brigade as the required hours will, in effect, be unachieveable from their own pockets.

Until there is some concrete law preventing the exploitation of (naieve) inexperienced pilots by ruthless companies for profit then there will be nothing to stop those same companies from increasing the pressure to push through candidates.

Once they are in the right hand seat, on a full contract, irrespective of how they got there it is our responsibility to mould a professional Co-Pilot who will become a professional Captain in the future. I might be retired in the back by then and would like to see the result of my efforts!!!

Creating division and derision within our profession benefits no-one.

Yes but the FAA put a clause in the new regulations reducing the 1500 hour requirement if you attend a school along the lines of CTC.

The FAA system and the European Cadet / CTC system are two very different things.

My personal stance is I think the CTC route is fine, however I don't like it being open to private sponsorship. If an airline was selecting and paying for the cadets training then I'm sure there would be no accusations real or otherwise of anything but talent being the deciding factor if someone makes it through the course.

Again personal opinion, but I think flying around the pattern counts for very little, if someone had worked for a TP operator then by all means have a method of entry as an FO for them.

What the FAA have dreamt up will do nothing to increase flighty safety, they would of been better banning pilots commuting to work.

Never was such crap spoken by so few to so many.

PT6A,

As you say, if the scheme chose potential candidates based upon their innate ability not just their ability to pay then I'm sure it would be fine/more acceptable.

The days of Airlines paying for full training are, IMHO, sadly gone. An airline wants a payback now for it's risk/investment and it will take a fundamental ethos shift for that to change in the future I'm afraid.

The FAA still require 1,000TT from those that have gone through pre approved programmes. These are mainly 4 year degree courses. The only other exception to the 1,500TT requirement is ex-mil guys who are allowed into the flight deck with 750TT. I think that is easily justified by the standard of training they have received and the hoops they have had to jump through to even have the chance to fly a military aircraft.

It is vital to the survival of our profession in Europe, in particular the UK, that we get rid of pay to play flying. CTC cadets are undoubtedly declining in quality. I have first hand experience of this.

Too many good pilots are being overlooked in order to put these guys in the right seat. Many are capable, but many others have no business being in the right seat of a 156 seat jet.

Originally posted by futuretp:


That explains it then - and applying when there was no unsecured loan! Vote lib dem or labour do we, you champagne socialist. Do as I say, not as I do.

Does anyone actually think it will improve flight safety by someone having 1500 hours in light aircraft, for arguments sake as a flight instructor?

Because mark my words... You will see every 2 bit flight school in the states start to offer 1,500 hour CFI internships. Basically forced labor where the flight school gets CFI's for free as all other routes to an airline cockpit have been effectively cut off.

This may even cause a further reduction in the quality of applicant.

My gripe is that they are stopping perfectly capable experienced pilots from moving on. A natural step for myself would be to Easyjet. It would be ok if it was a balanced playing field, some CTC, some experience, but it isn't.

No I am certain it won't. But it will keep the lefty , inefficient bureaucrats happy.

PERFECT practice makes perfect - not just practice. Something I learnt from my previous career. Continually practicing something incorrectly, unchecked, can make you extremely dangerous. Contrary to popular belief we FALL to the level of our training not RISE to the level of our expectations.

One point i will say against CTC is that it should not be the only way into a company and certainly not all the companies. If you screw up one interview which is entirely possible then you are excluded from pretty much any airline worth flying for in he UK. That is just not right.

Artic,

easyJet did recently take on some First Officers. Although maybe not ideal they are also taking on Captains and First Officers via an agency for non UK bases.

PT6A

That's all well and good mate, but not when you hold a Q400 Type Rating instead of a 320 rating. The ones they took on must've been "rated only".

Artic,

That's just the market at the moment. Look at Monarch, must of flown for UK airline and also be rated.

When things pick up maybe they will look at non rated.

Consider it a 'buyers market' for the employer. Whilst customers demand cheaper and cheaper flights and the competition is always there ready to give it to them then we, as pilots, will only ever be a massive cost to be trimmed back year after year.

Ticket prices need to reflect real world costs, until they do, we're all going to get our T's & C's attacked.

Have a look at IB Express!

FAA v CTC
 

PT6A:

Suggest you look at this thread rgds FAA ruling:

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...standards.html

and

Technology may be eroding pilot skills - chicagotribune.com

By the way who taught you to fly? An Instructor?! What was he paid? £7 per flying hr? Where is the incentive for young pilots to become instructors or even older ones to work for such low wages?

The usual "burning holes in the sky" argument doesn't really wash when it's 1500h!
Afterall who can afford to do that even in the USA on a C150?

Then again, I'd much rather take on an FAA MEP CFII with 1000h instructional experience in all weathers, dealing with busy Class C ATC, Wake turbulence separation, more mountainous terrain than the UK, than a post 2008 CTC cadet or EZY MPL with barely 100h of real flying experience. A lack of real flying skills, a shallow depth of knowledge and 1000s of hours of automation over-reliance is what is killing western airliner passengers these past 11 years.


See: http://www.boeing.com/news/techissues/pdf/statsum.pdf page 22/24 of pdf.

Mendicus: You should question CTC's training in recent years. Too much CBT and multi guess questioning (yes CAA/JAR also to blame here): CHIRP 01/2012 :

"I find the present bunch of junior First Officers very keen
and motivated but sadly woefully undertrained. They
have been taught to master the Flight Management
System but not taught the basics of flying or landing the
aeroplane."

CTC

My experience with CTC.

Had a really 'cheesy' Interview with 'Fly Dubai'. The initial interviews were being run by CTC last year. I have to say it was very unprofessional. The day was run by two ex Flight Attendants that had no idea what so ever about what they were doing. They were more concerned about picking up their kids from school that day, and if they had a ladder in their tights ....

On Arrival:

1. I was not asked for any identification at all

2. None of my details checked, ie Licence log book etc

3. They knew nothing about Fly Dubai in the initial welcome briefing and couldn't answer any questions from any candidate, ref Housing, Licensing etc.

4. One of the Interviewers was thought she 'still had it' ....? Nah, she didn't:mad:

I got invited to leave at lunch time on day one. After testing (computer based, reminder of Biggin Hill) I was told I wasn't going to make a pilot ! At the time I had 15K TT B737NG, BBJ, Corporate Jets, G550 / G4 / Global Express and Military Fast Jet experience.

A very experienced A320 Captain went with me (he just walked out) which left guys with no Boeing rating and <1000 hrs. What were CTC doing ? Not the best for their customer Airlines especially 'Fly Dubai' .... A very poor show CTC ! Indeed they are killing the industry in the UK and makes me angry that you have to pass the CTC screaning in many cases if you want a job in the UK / Europe. I am not bitter that I got canned, but the way the day was handled. I was the only one from the UK and everybody else was from USA, Canada, Poland, and New Zealand. What was their impression ?

I now am a flying as a 777 Captain for another operator in the Middle East, had a very fair professional interview process, and first class training. (EY)

High n Fast

It's interesting that you didn't do so well on the Computer tests. I had a similar issue, particularly with hand-eye coordination, for the BA FPP. The implication was that I couldn't fly an aeroplane. I don't profess to have even 10% of your depth and breadth of experience, but it says a lot that when I went back for the remainder of the assessment for in-house, I was able to pass the sim check to a really high standard and day two with marks that I was more than happy with.

I'm not convinced by the validity of all of the computer based tests, and neither are several colleagues ranging from experienced TPs to major airline Captains to Airshow Formation aerobatic pilots. However, them's the rules, and that's the way it is for that slice of the industry. I'm sure they get plenty of good ones, plus a few that have spent too much time playing computer games.

As had already been pointed out, it's ability to pay rather than flying aptitude and ability that counts these days.

When I did the JetRepublic CTC selection, they sent home a Frecce Tricolore leader and a few other FJ pilots after the silly computer games. Absurd.

I vaguely remember some ex F/A, and a nauseating ex BA guy. Neither had the first clue about business aviation. Biggest berk was on the door - Chastised me like a school boy for chatting to an old friend and not immediately filling in his stupid form.

Awful place; best left to snot-nosed school leavers with more money than sense.

Can someone confirm that CTC used to train Thomson pilots a few years back but stopped using them because they wernt happy with the quality of training?

If that the case it seems ironic that they are now going to take several of their cadets, who have had the same training and are probably skint and stressed too!

Will they be allowed to sleep in their cars like the Easy cadets do? ;)

When experienced professional pilots are “interviewed” by mutton dressed as lamb, glorified receptionists and red nosed, pot-bellied ex BA Captains still yearning attention, you can expect those experienced pilots to dismiss the interview for the pantomime it is, leaving only those poor creatures desperate for the job to feed the grossly inflated egos of the Condescending Trumped-up C**ts conducting the interview.

Why would somebody type rate you when there are guys and girls out there with type ratings? That's nothing to do with CTC just the way the market is at the moment.

I don't have a problem with cadets but what really gets my goat is that you go to CTC and they arrange a loan for you. Then, on the flexicrew scheme, they don't even pay you enough to cover your interest payments on said loan, especially in the winter when it is power by the hour.

That is just immoral and CTC have no interest in anything other than just profiteering and feathering their own nest.

What rubbish, they created that market and so now to compete airlines have to do it!!

CTC have a very unhealthy and far too large influence in the aviation market and should have their wings clipped (pun intended).

Just for the record I have no problem with the cadets themselves and they have been well trained. It's the way that they have been treated that is my issue.

What can we, as a profession, do about it?

Well said fmgc.

I'd like to think there was something that could be done to reverse, or at least slow down, the current trend but sadly i think its un-stoppable.
I'd like to think europe would follow the FAA ruling on 1500 hours min experience, but theres more chance of hell freezing over. It may help, but as has previously been mentioned, new money making rackets / packages would only spring up to circumnavigate it anyway.
Big business is big business and some people are making substantial amounts of money from the whole thing. Its a shame that many of those people used to be pilots - more often than not human nature will rapidly release its grip on any sense of morality when big financial gain is to be had.

At the lower end, we have the idiots who suddenly find themselves with a bit of power within the selection process, the likes of whom we've read about in the above posts. Still, every industry has its sad no-marks i guess.

Obviously, its not just CTC. Parc , Oxford, Easyjet, Ryanair etc etc etc have all a case to answer for where we are. It aint gonna change for the better anytime soon :{

Two founders are ex Britannia. One of them is a really nice guy, the other a slimy arrogant :mad:

Despite teaching CRM apparently he was awfully sarcastic and a bully on the FD.

.........sure, as long as you ignore the fact that he set up a training vehicle with the sole purpose of making profit by pimping the most vunerable and naive to the industry.
Of course, when he was starting out he didn't have to pay for any of his training - he had a full-time job to go to before training commenced, had a permanent contract of employment after training ended and after serving his probabtionary period, and enjoyed a full-fat salary and Defined Benefit Pension ("Final Salary") for the rest of his time with Britannia.
I bet he claimed to be a pious and principled member of BALPA too whilst he was enjoying it all.
And CTC is his legacy - "nice guy" indeed.:yuk:

now you pay for everything,from pp to atp,soon to trte.

its not going to change.

one word: QUIT!

Whether all this negativity is right or wrong in a factual sense, there is no way any of it will change with a continued negative attitude.

I agree that the CTC deal is not great to start with, but I am now 3 years since graduating. Using a bit of imagination you can definitely still achieve all that you set out to at the start of training. I more than comfortably earn enough now for a range rover and a Breitling, and all living in the relative comfort of Europe. As I said, it just takes some imagination and a positive attitude.

That's indeed why you won't find many ex CTC trainees having a rant on pprune. Only those on the outside who frankly don't have much grasp of the reality of the situation.

Basically you were aiming to get a Breitling and a Range Rover... In any case in respect to a guy with a bigger connection, who didn't pay any type rating and was moved immediately on a big jet thanks to his Captain friend you are still a loser because he can drive a Porsche and a got Rolex on his right or left hand. In case you know or meet those kind of guys , and there are a many, don't come back disappointed opening your mouth about how the life is unfair because you have helped the system to destroy the economy, social life, democracy in Wester World and the civil aviation and pilot profession, simply doing anything you could to move forward in the quickest way without caring too much if you were destroying your own future too.

Basically you are not too different from a whore.Think about it next time you wear your wonderful Breitling. Looser!:=

Range Rover and Breitling
 

Says it all really. CTC wonder kid.:ugh:

How is your pension plan? Or your critical illness cover?