Turboprop command or jet F/O
 

Hey guys. Most of the time I only do read here, but now I have a topic to throw in here.
Right now I am a F/O on the Q400 with some 2000+ hours on type, age in the late 20ies. This year I will have the choice between upgrade on the Q400 or moving onto our E195 fleet as an F/O (which would nail me for at least 3 to 5 years there).
I know that there is no definite answer to this question and that I will have to do the decision on my own at the end, but I wanted to hear some different opinions about this topic (and i also know that some guys would murder for having this luxury problem ;) ).
So what's more worth in your opinion? I am sure I won't stay more than lets say 5 years in this company. My goal is doing some freight (maybe DHL, TNT) one day.
I think that there are only few companies out there that hire captains back onto their RHS, or am I wrong?

Unless you want to retire with your present company you will at some point have to move on. The questions are: how desperate you are to move? How soon do you want to move? Where do you see yourself going? What is plan B should your first options fail.

Once you have answered the above you need to look at what these companies you wish to go to under plan A and B are actualy wanting from aplicants. Then tailor your career to meet the requirements.

My opinion is that nobody gives a s*@* about Q400 command time and that the jet time would be of more value (so long as you wish to move) Also 195 is more than 50,000kg MTOW. This would make you far more marketable than Command Q4.

Command Q4 will only be useful to other TP operators and your present company.

Conventional wisdom used to say "never pass up a command opportunity". In my personal experience, t-prop command time is worthless. Only jet time matters.

Take jet FO position, wait for your command. Once you have 1000-1500 hrs PIC you can apply for most non type rated direct entry jobs on A320 / B737 if you wish to move on.

Good luck!

Where do you want to end up? Some employers, BA for example, couldn't give two hoots if you have turboprop command time so make your move towards your long term career aspiration as soon as you can. Don't hang on for command or, even, jet time.

Similar choice.... How much jet time is really enough?

1000hrs will get you into pretty much any airline except EK if thats your end goal.

Jet time allways. :ok:

My plan A is to end up at a European freighter company. EAT, DHK (would be nice because of base LEJ as a German), TNT, Cargolux (Thats plan A+)
Plan B: A more stable company than my current one within Europe. Could be freight, pax or GA, whatever ;)
Plan C if everything goes wrong is the sandpit :E
It's not like I want to move from my current company, but I am pretty sure that I will have to in the next few years. And the earlier I find another one, the better of course.

In that case if all else fails.....which obviously we all hope doesnt.... Q4 Command will only see you into QR, EY and EK out..... For now at least.

If you want to fly TPs for the rest of your life, then go for your command. If you ever want to make the move to jets, then take the very first jet job you are offered.

Simples!

If you are referring to EK, it isn't exactly a box ticking exercise. You still have to do the biz during selection!

I'd take E195 FO position. You have enough prop time.

Maybe sandpit as plan C sounded pejorative. Of course it's not like "here I am, you have to take me". EK may be a great company to work for, but the sandpit woudn't be my lifestyle. But that's another topic.


And btw: I do not work for flybe right now ;)

I would personally take the jet. I got stuck with those spinning things (props) way too long and evev though I am now in a jet I feel my low jet time definitively hurts my chances moving to a new job should I so choose. Also, you'll get another type on your license which doubles your options in search of work in the future. The EMB170/190 series is becoming a popular type now days, and it would even allow you to venture into the VIP part of aviation on the Lineage should you ever want to try that.

Prop command is a thing in the past, unless you love it for some weird reasons. I got out more than a couple of decades ago and was just glad I did. Although I did have some proper planets alignment to fast track my jet command, being at the right place, right time.

In today's context, Jet time it is. Don't bother with the useless prop hours. All the best.

Jet.... no question.

Props are for boats!!

sadly, jets is the correct answer. I was in this position with TP Cmnd or ERJ145 FO, after choosing the 145, suddenly the big airlines were interested and off I went to a decent job. That was at a time of high unemployment in the UK. The problem seems to be getting stuck in the TP department while the PTF FO's sail above you into the jet jobs, where,once there, they will always be above you on the seniority list, no matter how much TP p1 you may have. The only real balance to this argument is if the quality of your domestic/social life will significantly deteriorate by moving jobs, I have met people who have left small regional outfits, gone for the big time job, hated it and come back again.

This is unfortunately the state of aviation in Europe, and its not going to change any time soon. Experience in "real flying" and hard work is not appreciated any more as there are armies of P2F "pilots" waiting to sell their souls....sorry, let me rephrase that - They are waiting to PAY to sell their souls!! :uhoh::mad:

Similar situation here although I already have 2000hrs on a 50t jet. A TP command is now available. I fancy a change and the money wouldn't hurt.

It's not like it makes any difference what your experience is these days, if you have more than 200hrs and are not willing to work for free then you don't stand a chance anyway.

I'd say take the command and the extra money.

Hi! I see many perspectives here and I must say that most of the people here are crazy for the shiney jets which I quite understand BUT here's mine: I spent 9 years in the right seat with my present company on the 737 CL and NG and I really enjoyed the most of it.With current future lookouts in Europe it would have been another 6 years to swap seats so I was really happy to take on the TP command when it was offered and never regretted it.If you stuck in the right seat for whatever reason after a while you loose interest and ambition and it is hard to recover from that situation. All I can say is that one of my well respected instructor said that is better be a cpt on a TP than an FO on the space shuttle.

cheers

Had a lively exchange with Norman Stanley Fletcher (Easyjet) about this subject a few years ago.

FWIW, I'm one of three former Q400 capts to make the jump from LHS turbo prop to LHS A300-600. It was really no big deal and we all managed the course in minimum time.

IMHO, what counts is the quality of the operator and not type you fly. That said, not all employers are as broad-minded as ours and you will quite likely come up against the 'TP hours are worth nothing' mentality from time to time so it's a hard one to call.

Good luck whatever you choose.

I really think the days of TP lhs to jet lhs in new company are gone...in Europe anyway....

Take the jet time!

The first question they will ask you when you you turn thirty and they need a commander will be "how much jet time do you have?"

Turbo prop command time will count for nothing ( Of my 16209 hours, 7000hrs command on the turbo prop, I should know, the rest is jet time)

Take the jet time, it all counts, every last minute;)

With jet time (on something like an E170 or E195), at least you will have the "option" to be considered by some of the Middle Eastern airlines - IF THAT IS OF INTEREST TO YOU. The Middle East is certainly not for everyone - but that is where the growth is located. You will not get looked at by those airlines if you are in the LHS on the Q400 - at least that is what I have heard. So, if you want that option (you are open to it), then getting jet time now makes more sense.

You have to decide what you want - if you want to fly for BA in the future, then maybe Q400 Captain time makes more sense and make you more competitive and you can afford to wait it out. I've heard the Q400 is lovely to fly and a great experience builder - but you already have that experience as an FO. If you need jet time now because you might be interested in flying in the Middle East, the E195 FO seat makes more sense for the time being. Decide what you want in terms of future options and then make your decision.

Good luck!

JET...next question?!?!?!?!

Aviation is so wrong right now. I love my q400 and would really like to fly it on the LHS. But seems like I have to take the jet, just to have it in the CV.

Could someone tell me where I'm going to take my 2000 Ejet hours? Easy, Ryan, monarch, Thomson, Thomas Cook?? All of those are either cadet only employers or type rated only. BA and jet2 will take you with TP command time and the sandpit isn't for me (and many others).

You are all talking like its still 2007 and airlines care what experience you have. Times have changed and it really doesn't matter any more, in fact the less experience the better. Unless you're rated or ready to take a shafting you're not going anywhere so take the option that pays the most and try and retire ASAP.

UN614, what you said is so true now. They don't care about anything except for that 500 hours on type experience. Very sad.

How unusual, a Pprune thread full of intelligent observation and balanced comment!
Some airlines do realise the benefit of TP hours. After sever years of DE Cadets, the policy was changed last year at TCX so that cadets would spend 2 years at FlyBe before coming onto the TC Fleet. I suspect that there is finally a recognition that the current regime stretches the resources of the weaker Captains and the weaker Cadets. Things may well move very slowly back in favour of some TP(or small jet) work experience before going onto a big jet, and it may well be the company insurers who begin to insist on it. Unfortunately, this info does not assist the OP.
Secondly, if you do commit to TP, for whatever reason, you are condemning yourself to a lifetime of poor wages. Generally, TP Capt and Jet FO on a proper contract with a respectable airline are not far apart, but with the JET FO having the option of promotion to JET Capt. which will be at least 15k more and if you are lucky with seniority pay, a top end of 100kplus.
Even if you start on poverty jet wages, your upside is still greater than the TP Capt.
There are plenty of jet jobs globally, at the moment, but history teaches that things change fast, so grab it while you can.

And take the long view, how much and how secure will I be in 5 years times, is more important than the downpayment on a nice car tomorrow.

UN614, you will get a good job in the ME FE with your experience, if you want to progress thats the only option unless very lucky.

BB i had exactly the same conundrum at my operator, LHS Dash or RHS 195, i took the Embraer route and haven't looked back since. If your Dash reliability is anything like ours the mover to Miss Brazil will be like a hurricane of fresh air for you.

Good luck! :ok:

Never ever turn down command.

Do so and you may wait 20 years or more for the opportunity to come around again.

Nothing wrong with turboprops either. I spent two years driving one round the UK and near Europe and that is where I really learned to fly. The fact that 12 year olds can buy their way into the RHS of an Airbus has got to tell you something about the magnitude of the challenge there.

And before everyone starts, I have indeed flown the Airbus and currently reside in a 747-8. So TP's never did me any harm. Quite the opposite in fact.

Agree with ZEDDBE

Proper airlines want future captains not eternal FOs. When you get an interview with a DFO/Chief Pilot they will be checking your command potential from the get go.

If things go downhill in the EU, a Q400 Command allows you to take overseas jobs that an FO can't get be that in China, Vietnam or ME.

With the ever rising cost of JetA1 turboprops are likely to make a comeback - ATR have already had one of their best sales years in 2011.

Going from Q400 to an Airbus is not a big deal.

You know it, and I know it, and many other prop drivers, but seems like 99% of the recruitment departements world wide disagree about that.
I know people who moved onto a 777 or 748, with only Q400 hours in their log (a few lucky ones). And many performed better than the stick flyers.
Too many jobs overseas require those "on type" or "jet" hours. :(

Some do, like Emirates and Ethiad but they want thousands of jet hours which will still be some years away for you. Others want command hours on certain types of jet. The E190 series doesn't seem to be the one that they want the time on either and you're not going to get LHS time in that for a while either. Other airlines like Easyjet and Ryanair make money from desperate wanabees and won't look at you and the likes of Monarch, TCX, Virgin etc are not expanding or are on their knees with the state of the economy. You'll be fighting with the pay to fly fools to get these jobs as they also have jet time.

You said on your initial post that you want to fly cargo. TP hours are good for DHL, EAT, TNT, GSS and if you have enough of them, Cagoloux. Some of these airlines promote fast, so they may see an upgrade as a bigger deal than some jet hours. Other airlines that look at guys with TP time are BA, Fly Dubai and Qatar airways. Guys have also gone into decent small / mid size biz jet jobs from the Q400 in the LHS.

In your shoes, I'd take the TP command, probably better pay and will freshen things up. If the E190 will lead to a quick LHS, take that, but if it doesn't you'll be stuck with a lot of FO time and employers wondering if you would want or be able to handle and upgrade.

PS I'm LHS in a TP and would love to move on. I have found many employers start to take you seriously as a Captain and it has opened up some interesting possibilities.

At your age, I'd go for the jet and broaden your options for the future. There are plenty of ex-jet pilots who chose to return to turboprops and seemed to have no difficulty doing so but there are probably more turboprop pilots who are stuck there finding it difficult to get a jet job for the reasons mentioned above.

I find myself in a similar situation to yourself, few more hours, though I'm just happy to go along with whatever happens.

A friend recently asked me "where do you want to be in 5 years?" and "which of the available paths will get you there first?" (Or at all?!)

Do remember, Flybe will be a completely different airline in 5 years. There will be nearly 50 Embraers in fleet and far less Q4's.

With attrition, retirements and the changing fleet its likely your upcoming left hand seat position will be a Jet position within 5 years (or so).

love_joy

He's already stated he does not work for Flybe.

True. It's a small German operator maybe most of you won't know ;)
Augsburg Airways - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

:cool:

Need sunnies to cut the glare from the SHINY JET SYNDROME here.

Seriously, a jungle jet is not a wide body and you're still in the right seat. Command in any crew aircraft will prep you for a future command. Sitting in the right seat for another 5 years will prep you for...another five years in the right seat.

Unless you plan to get a useful type (like a 747 or 777, not an embraer) in the right seat and move to another job, you NEVER TURN DOWN COMMAND.

Kids these days...:ugh: