EZY Captain v VAA F/O
 

Hi Guys,

I am a new skipper at Easy living in the South East. I am in a lucky position I know but am finding my decision a tough one! I'm pretty sure this decision will have been made by others in the past and I would love to hear constructive views either way! Obviously the money is alot better staying where I am, but with over 30 years 'theoretically' left flying should that be priority number 1!?!?

Each option has pro's and con's...........

I have a young family and a very supportive wife (who one day would like to move further north)......this would obviously mean a commute for long haul, but the freedom to live where we choose if I were to move to VS as opposed to EZY where I would need to be close to work is very tempting!

Any help or discussion points greatly appreciated!!!

Could you not put in for a transfer to a base in the north?

I would say it would take a very brave man to give up a command at EZY for a position at VS in these uncertain times. They do seem to have a habit of chopping people at the drop of the hat.

Good luck with your decision.

Ron,

If you are considering such a move surely BA would be a better option.

Lots of discontent at VS at the moment, along with long waiting times to command.

At least with a young family you can change your lifestyle at BA to suit your family circumstances. Personally I left VS because I had a young family and have never looked back.

Good luck!

Northern bases now seem to be a North West thing as Newcastle seems like 'dead mans shoes' sadly! However we are giving a base transfer serious thought!

I am actually currently in the BA holdpool too.......but with LH unlikely for the first 5 years, the BMI uncertainties and now this PP34 for new joiners I am rapidly being turned off the idea!

Hugely aware that the grass is rarely greener.....but also aware that 35 years left flying for EZY could take it's toll!!!

I am not really qualified to comment as I have only flown for easy but what a great position you are in. In my opinion BA can only decline in terms of pilot lifestyle and terms and conditions and the workforce of late is increasing exponentially. The scale of this is anyone's guess over 30 years.

Virgin Atlantic seems cool but it is as big a risk in this career as any I'd have thought.

I dont think easy will have A319s and 320s for the whole of the next 30 years - that combined with the chance to train, examine or go part time combined with another business give the scope for variety in the future.

Ill conclude by saying that I don't think 2012 will be a comfortable year for anyone at the bottom of an airlines pilot seniority list and virgin would be one of the least comfortable in my opinion. The fact you are even considering speaks volumes. That said I don't think anyone from my era would be a pilot if they chose the least risk, sensible option and now on the other side of my choice I really enjoy my career. Good luck with your choice.

Dear Ron,

If you want a 20 year wait for Command again, then VAA is right up your street. Or if you like looking at the back of colleagues heads from the jump seat it is also great. If you enjoy flying, buy a kite after you join because that is the only guarantee of flying you'll get.

I would be very cautious about joining VAA full stop now. They haven't got the muscle any more - they just lost out on the only game left in town. BMI. They are very, very vulnerable. BA don't need VAA or their slots now they've got BMI. A long, slow death awaits the red tails in my opinion.

I spent 3 years there, and left gratefully with enhanced voluntary redundancy. But, you know what? They wouldn't even tell me (and others) if we were really going to be chopped anyhow. The whole thing was a mismanaged nightmare from start to end.

I haven't looked back since, am in a far better position financially, mentally, family and health wise. And that is what counts.

Who is to say that VAA won't attempt a PP34 scenario on their pilots? Who knows if VAA will be around in 20 years or so? I can't see it myself.

And finally, 750 hours per year in VAA is the only thing going for it. The VAA management WILL HAVE TO use that as a competitive bargaining tool in years to come in order to reduce costs. Just like the smoke screen BA is using regarding short haul in order to ram through change.

Join if you like. You have been warned. It's a Man and Boy outfit and you'll be a boy until you are in your 50's. And even then, you'd better hope you didn't upset someone downroute a long, long time ago if you're to have an enjoyable upgrade.

Virgin have a history of hiring and firing. I would be very wary about joining them just as Europe enters another recession. I would not give up a command to become a long term F/O starting at the bottom of a seniority list in this climate.

I have not worked for Virgin, but have many friends who do. I can only concur with the very wise advice being given here. It seems to be that Virgin is at significantly greater risk of failure today than has ever been the case previously. In addition, in recent years there has been a pretty toxic relationship between pilots and management. They are not in a comfortable place commercially and I can only agree with others who warn against being at the bottom of a seniority list in the next year or so. We all know that life at easyJet is not perfect, but right now it is about as secure as any airline can be. The other factor is how frustrating you may find it going from being a Captain at easyJet to a very long-term FO at Virgin (10 years +?). Only you know if that will upset you or not in your heart of hearts. Remember, leaving easyJet as a Captain is a one-way transaction - there is no going back easily to where you currently are except by a long wait and jumping through a whole host of hoops you have already gone through. Going to BA is one thing, but going to Virgin right now as a current and secure Airbus short haul Captain has a slight air of professional suicide to me. Just a personal perspective, but there you have it.

What is PP34, to the uninitiated?

Pay point 34. It used to take 24 years at BA to reach the top pay scale for a given rank. It looks highly likely that they are changing it to 34 pay points meaning a 10 year longer wait to reach top pay and up to 450k in today's money of lost earnings.

I agree with above posts - VAA is not the place to be in a recession/depression. I say bid a Northern base @ Easy or hold out for BA. Even with the BMI uncertainties, BA still represents one of the few long-term viable options and the flying/fleet mix is varied. Sure, you will be an FO for the next 20 years at least, but you will be an FO on the 787/777/A380 for a decent chunk of those years if you wish. This career is a gamble and you can only decide based on the best info you have at the time. Consider all of the pros/cons and then listen to your gut.

Personally, I think I would find it difficult to return to the right seat for 20 years after flying left seat on the Airbus at a very stable airline. I am a long way from that decision myself. Good luck!

Great original post and some very interesting answers. Could I throw in an additional question? I find myself in a very similar situation as Ron, except my command is at Ryanair rather than easyJet. So, Ryanair command or Virgin FO?

I am not in the lucky position of Ron with a stable base in the UK's South East, but rather on an undesirable contract which frequently sees me away from my young family for 5 or 6 days at a time at various bases around Europe - with little hope of a return to the UK for the next year or so, and even if I do manage that I can still be sent away at the company's demands any time.

Then, would that persuade anyone that VS is a better option?

You're in a worse position that the OP, but you still have a paying job. Join VS, that may not be the case soon. VS have made pilots redundant twice in the last ten years in downturns. We are entereing another.

If you're happy to be an FO with Virgin for the next 15-20 years with the threat of redundancy around every corner for the next 2 years then it's a great place to be.

Rosters on both fleets are hectic and time at home minimal.

I'd stay where you are

Like others have said, this IMHO is a no brainer.

VAA no way, BA maybe.

Have you ever considered longhaul before? I've been doing it for 2 years and I'm sick of it, it is far far more tiring than doing 4 sector days like I used to.

For me it'd be a no brainer, stay at EZY. VA and BA it'll be an age before you see the left seat again, plus with VA they'll give you the boot at the drop of a hat if circumstances with the economy change for even worse or god forbid another 9/11 type scenario.

A simple rule: Once you have gained the Left Seat do not surrender it voluntarily. Expand and develop yourself in that role. Move into training and/or management when you feel ready and the opportunity presents itself. Always remember that you can establish your own business and that there are opportunities later on in life for experienced trainers and managers in other organisations (CAA, AAIB, EASA, ICAO to name but a few).

A "no-brainer" really.

Flyforfood, out of interest, which airline are you flying long haul for? Are the rosters industry standard?

Trying to establish where my long term goal lies!

Cheers.

I know a few guys that have just went back to VS after a 'sebatical.' I also learnt of another who is about to join. He is in a very similar position to the OP. It seems a precarious place in my opinion. Even more precarious in this day and age. On the exterior it appears all glitz and glam. The rock star airline, attractive hosties and exotic and exciting destinations. The reality appears very different. I once aspired to VS, however many personal testomonies from those with direct experience have changed my mind. However people will still join and I doubt they will be short on applications. However when time gets tough that bottom end of the seniority list appears to disappear fast!

Wingswinger, Narrow Runway and Dan have covered it all. The grass here is brown. Plenty of guys in both seats are pretty concerned. Our management is appalling. You were warned.

Im at QR flying the Airbus, funnily enough where a lot of the VA guys ended up after they dropped kicked them out the last time. I did 870 hours last year, and I can honestly say I have never felt so tired in all my flying career.

To be honest, not sure if it is industry standard as I haven't flown long-haul before, but my next move will be back to short haul and i'll stay there, I can't imagine doing this type of flying AND having a young family + a Mrs that works.

I suppose if its 500-600 hours a year it might be bearable, but personally if you actually like 'flying' the aeroplane LH is damn boring! :suspect:

Why would you want to leave easy and join VS when you can earn more then double on a european contract?

:ok:

I'm a current easyJet captain and wouldn't even consider VA. They have a history of hiring and firing when the economy donwturns. Then where will you go, the sandpit?

Why not do what I have done, bid for the north of England and go part time until you move?

Good Luck

Ron, stay put. Even with a certain management pilot you have, stay put! May not be easy. You will regret any move outlined. But as for longhaul, it was great. Looking back on a mainly longhaul- I loved it!

Very interesting thread - as I'm also an EZY captain and always thought I would like to end up at VAA.... but how things have changed. Like many here I know a few people who have been at the bottom end of the seniority when the axe has been swung, some went back and some didn't. The ones who went back aren't planning to stay at VAA for long - with some even saying that (and i know its not possible at the moment) that if they could take a direct LHS at EZY then they'd jump at it.

I agree with previous posters that VAA has just missed out on the last game in town, BMI. What can they do now? New routes usually come at the expense of others so limited expansion, no alliance, aging thirsty fleet, trading heavily on the brand with actual on board experience falling very short (read airlinequality website for proof!)
Its hard to see where they go next? And as far as careers go, i'd need balls of steel to leave the security and salary of EZY to join the bottom of the VAA seniority with a command so far in the future that retirement would probably happen first.

I'd look at the other options where you are, look at Northern base transfers (MAN will be a huge base in a few years) or once the euro troubles have calmed maybe a base abroad.
Thats my career plan now, i'm on the LYS list, with the Alps near by, good food & wine, excellent rail & road connections, cheaper property, strong industial employee relations, and a very good salary package.

A friend who is a trainer at VS had previously always remained impartial when I sought advice about potentially joining. Nowadays he advises me in the strongest terms to stay away. Never mind 20 years, many people are wondering what the future size and shape of the company will be in 5 years.

Thank you to all who have posted on this site. I am due to leave my present employer soon and am in the VAA and BA pools. Until I read this thread I was pretty certain that VAA was the way ahead but this debate has put many doubts in my head. It's all pretty negative reference VAA. I'm not disputing those who have already posted but are there any VAA pilots out there who are willing to stand up for their company? If not, then I suspect I have plenty of food for thought! Thanks and any further feedback would be gratefully received.

I'm a current VAA SFO, I'd stay where you are if I were you!

I completely agree with all the previous comments. VAA have run out of options and friends! That said, who knows what deals are being done behind the scenes, SR Branson does have friends in the desert so a merge may not be completely off the agenda.

As I see it the main differences between us and BA are that BA are run competently and are also huge in comparison. VAA are small fry! It also used to be that you'd get command quicker at VAA, not any more. BA have been in this situation for years thus their payscales reflect it. If my chats downroute are to be believed; a 12ish yr FO in BA is on about 97K, in VAA a bucket load less! And then when you do get left hand seat there's command bridging, straight to 12 yr Capt pay, not with VAA! That said, in BA if you want to stay on long haul when you get your command you'll prob have to wait 18yrs?

Yes VAA fly 750hrs, although the co. are trying every single weasel trick in the book to get more out of us. 750 doing long haul is plenty thanks, and that's with some scheduling protections. 900hours in the desert without them must really hurt!

Good luck either way!

This has been a very interesting thread to read!!

I turned down a position on the A340 with VS last year. I stayed with my current airline in the RHS. For me it was a very very big decision to make, I had sleepless nights thinking about what to do.
To be honest there has not been a week gone by when I have thought, did I make the right choice? - It looks like I did.

Ron good luck with your choice!

Wander - thanks for taking the time to reply - no choice but to leave my present employer and your post has been helpful.

Thanks everyone for all the advice and good luck messages! It is a major decision that has been playing on my mind for a while.....the comments, advice and experiences I have read so far have really helped.

It seems a few 'may' have had different views if I was choosing between EZY Captain or BA First Officer..........maybe I have been too quick to dismiss this option on the basis of pay?!

My initial gut reaction was that the new payscales at BA brought new joiners much closer to Virgins pay. Combined with direct long haul, less hours flown a year and a rumoured MUCH better 'down route' atmosphere Virgin seemed like a place I would be happier to be!

In addition I would have the continual battle at BA of trying to forget the fact that but for a month or two and a little luck in the holdpool I could/should be
earning £xxxx per month (huge £'s over a career!) extra like the majority of the guys I'll be sharing the rest of my career with!!! That may seem petty, but I think its important to be honest to myself and that's how it makes me feel at present.

Tough one indeed!!

not if you're averaging 53 per month Wander :}

It's a tough one Ron and a good thread. UK aviation is lucky that it's an island and people need to fly to get away so there will always be a certain amount of job security. But.....if you really want to stay in the UK, then get more Skip time with EZY then head out East in 5 years or so. Have a look at the figures. I can only see these increasing as the world-order slowly re-arranges itself, like it or loathe it.

I think your problem is the same as 70% of the EZY workforce - can you really stay for 30+ years, tarmac bashing through 11:30 duty days and constant 4 am alarms..!

30+ years of EZY crew food should be enough to put you off, surely :)

Hi Ron

It is a tough decision indeed. I can only reiterate some of the earlier captions with a little extra. I don't and have never worked for VAA but I have been through a few redundancies and, as I am sure others will support, it is a dreadful situation to find yourself in especially at the moment with poor economies and a family to support. Your decision really centres around your career desires against home life. U2 are certainly one of the most secure at the moment and that is something I wouldn't give up lightly. I always take the view of never regret the decisions you make as it will only depress you. You have to make the decision that suits you best for the immediate future and not necessarily 20 years away because who knows what aviation will be like in 20 years.
I was fortunate to get in with BA so have not been unemployed for long but to give you some extra info BA are changing the rules but they are still IMO one of the leaders in T&C's. Do not forget that the salary is not the only remuneration you get and the whole package is worth quite a bit more. J class staff travel until year 7 then it becomes First, Good pension contributions (not the best I know but better than I have ever had), Excellent work/life balance (circa 14 days off/month) and I am on SH at the moment. With the extras in duty and flight pay I average an extra £1000-£1200/month.
The great thing as well is bidding for your own roster and fleet movement desires. It allows you an area to breathe and enjoy your current fleet whilst having time to think about your career progression (fleets,routes,training etc).
Also having friends at U2 and VAA I would second the suggestions to stay put. After all in my experience thus far Captains are always a required commodity where as FO's are replaceable. Just have to look at the recruitment market to see the number of positions for Capts as opposed to FO.

Anyway I wish you all the best with your decision and hope you have a happy career.

Job security and money. Agree with both however don't think either exist anywhere in Europe right now or for the foreseeable future.

I've been with Virgin for just over 12 years and I have no desire to ever fly short haul again. The long haul lifestyle isn't for every one either.

As things stand I'd consider your potential move very carefully. If command floats your boat I wouldn't come. I'm as they say in VAA "Ready for Command" and have been told it could still be at least another 2 years away, so I'll have been here for 14 years. That time is only going to increase and anyone who joined after about 2003 is going to be looking at 16 years depending on what happens with the 787 and 330. If you join today I can't see anyway you would have a command in under 20 years.

As to a lifestyle choice it's been much much better. However these days most FO's are lucky to get more than 10 full days at home on the 747 and on the 340 it's creeping down to about 13. However virtually everyone I fly with is, as you would expect, fun to be away with. Depending on the destination the crews can either be great fun or just disappear. More often than not I end up having a good time.

People will talk about expansion but it's not going to happen. We have less aircraft today than we did pre 9/11. VAA has reached a natural plateau and I don't see much expansion. Coupled with the fact we're out in the cold as far as Alliance Partners are concerned the future is far from certain. As long as Virgin continue to operate with a specific "niche" market we may be ok.

People have talked about job security. There isn't any! Every time there is a downturn VAA lay off as many people as they can get away with and they don't care because they know there will always be a stream of young starry eyed aviators who want to come and fly a big long haul aircraft. Some people are put out by this but frankly that's business when you are a small private company.

I have no regrets about joining Virgin but if I went back 12 years to talk to myself I'm not sure whether I would advise doing it again.

This seems to be one of the most sensible threads I have read in a long while so I thought it may be worth contributing to.

I was in a similar position to the OP several years ago, having had my command in EZY for a year, although I was at a Northern base where I wanted to be. I went for the interview, got in the pool and eventually was offered the 747.

During the time between being placed in the pool and being offered a course, I sat down and produced a list of Pros and cons.

From a HR point of view, there are 4 reasons for changing jobs, known as the 4 "S"s, Sterling, Status, Social and Security. I will briefly summarise my conclusions on these items to show why I made my decision.

Sterling, more commonly known as pay - Command salary, Loyalty bonus, pension and the share options far outweighed the VAA F/O package. Also I had to factor in commuting costs of about £400 a month.

Status - Depends on you point of view, I am not precious about having 4 bars on my shoulder, however it does make your day to day operation easier as you set the tone of the day. I also like the decision making responsibility that comes with a command coupled with the fact it is then possible to get into training.

Social - In EZY, I get onto stand and an hour later I am at home, not having to worry about commuting, making standby flights etc. ergo my time off duty is my own to do with what I like.
Coupled with this, how secure is your relationship? It is a serious question when you look at how many people in long haul get divorced. You will be away when the gas boiler goes off, or little Johnny falls over and breaks his leg. All this will add to the tension at home, regardless of the temptations downroute.:E:E:E

Security - As mentioned by previous posters, VAA is not the best place to be in a downturn. As Customers trade down, the 2 week all inclusive Caribbean holiday becomes a 2 week break in the med. 2 weeks becomes 1 week and 1 week becomes a city break etc. easyJet are probably better placed to take advantage of the last 3 groups and therefore be more secure in the current economic climate.

For me it was a fairly simple decision to stay at easy and, in the end, I would have lost my position shortly after joining. I don't regret not joining Virgin although, when I see a Virgin 747, I sometimes think about what it may have been like, but don't dwell on it for very long.

That said, if I was living down south, operating out of LGW or LTN, the scales are a bit more finely balanced.

Good luck with your decision:ok:. Only history will tell if you were right.

4 years later - I believe I was right.

This has turned into a recruitment ad for Easyjet.
Hard work yes (but most folk work hard these days esp those with a half decent salary) good time off, well paid, ability to move base, and security.
Where's that French geezer whose always bemoaning them.
Grass is green job

Stay with EZY.
They are not the best & a long way short of the worst. You need to take care of your family & quality of life. And I dont mean now or tomorrow or next year. You need a company that will continue to provide for your mortgauge for probaly about 20yrs or so. EZY isnt glam, no large 4jets darkening the skies full of blonde hosties, pretty boreing really but they will survive & there fore so will you. & for the 1 who asked the same question of FR I give the same answer. I know. I have done both.

btw, NEVER surrender your 4 stripes!! You will be suprised how & where they will provide for you!!

Off topic (apologies) but people keep mentioning airplanes full of gorgeous blond hosties at VS? Have you actually flown them recently? Either things have changed or I'm on the wrong sectors and my standards ain't that high!:eek:

An excellent thread! I cannot add much except to say that I have been in the same position as the poster. Craggenmore is right. Flying for a full service airline is a different ball game. What fits for one person, is anothers nightmare. I stayed at easy and loving the command. As a new father, long haul is not an option now. Life at easy, is far from EASY! Good luck