Where has it all gone wrong?
 

I am an inexperienced First Officer ( in my view) 1000 hours on type I come from an Aviation Family and wanted to continue as this always appeared to be a proud professional profession. I self sponsered my way through my ATPL and type rating and have a position now , even though I had to sign a training bond for a type rating I already had. However new start, new country for my young family and myself ...... HOW Wrong.

The last 6 months have consisted of my recurrent training whereby the Instructor fell asleep in the simulator. I am flying with inexperienced Captains whom are thrown into the left seat ready or not once they get to 3000 hours. And sadly the professional older Captains are walking out......... The aircraft are tatty and worn........ The Management are just not interested, ........... Is it the same with all companies or am I just unlucky....... To be honest I feel that there must be better ways of earning a living....:confused:

Sorry to hear your predicament but at least you have A job - many haven't.

That said, yes there are employers out there with better Terms & Conditions - just keep applying and something will come up.

Good Luck

Thanks for the response, ...... I just wonder where it will all end. When I say senior Captains are walking out its not just the job its Out of aviation. Its mainly the managements attitude......... no care or consideration get the job done and stay out of our hair. ah well

Same old story...
 

Hey there,mate...The same crap everywhere,except you're flying for a legacy carrier,which can be counted on the fingers of your one hand...People doing the job are not interested any longer,no respect,average salaries,simulator checks have become a formality,nobody's interested what you know and how you can handle an a/c as long as you remember the button-pushing sequence...A lot of hard work and it's a game over without a simple "thanks" once you lose your medical.
Every time I go to fly I expect to be treated like a nobody by ops,management, ATC , security personnel and even cabin crew.No respect,no rights and you're always the one to blame for everything...Though I still love the job and always wanted to do it,I would strongly recommend anyone thinking of it as a profession to be very careful.But,good luck,anyway,I'm sure those who are willing to change things will find their better place with greener grass,stay on the positive side ;)

I don't suppose this operator uses B737s and needs more F/Os? - as I'm type rated and desperate!

As fireflybob says many haven't got a job.... me being one of them! Of course I'd like good Ts and Cs (who wouldn't?) but right now I'd just like to be flying and building experience!

Unfortunately, this scenario is only too common now. The rot set in when airlines were no longer run by aviation professionals but bean counters and management school graduates. I don't honestly see it improving.

Me cynical? Absolutely; with good reason! :{

This is the state of the world; not just aviation.

Until there is unity - they will carry on shafting us.

Andrew, is this honestly your own opinion, or are you repeating what the more vocal disgruntled guys are saying? Just check yourself. For example, what do you really know about experience at 3000 hours and becoming a captain? You've only just started!

Have you considered the fact that by paying for your type rating you may have contributed to the decline in the industry that you are now complaining about?

Once MOL proved that there was a line of people willing to pay to sit in the right seat, the respect rapidly went out the window....

Mutt

I have been in different outfits all over the world but never experienced a sim check as a formality or someone falling asleep. Maybe its me, they keep on be picky on every detail. I would love to have a sleeping instructor :D

You make a very interesting point Jazz Hands...."For heaven's sake, don't you think every other profession on the planet hasn't had to deal with exactly the same stuff? What makes aviation think it has some God-given exemption?"

.......well there aren't many other professions on this planet where in the blink of eye hundreds of lives can be lost or saved (AF447 or US Airways Flight 1549) by the actions and split second decisions of two people!!

Oh and yes you are right it is called 'life', that's each and every single one that is lost or saved by the ability of those who enter the flight deck and close the door behind them, not the "bean counters" you refer to.

Where did it all go wrong?
 

Dear Andrew,

Look at this sentence:

"I self sponsered my way through my ATPL and type rating and have a position now , even though I had to sign a training bond for a type rating I already had."

That was written by you.

Can you see where it started to go wrong?

Oh do tell, please.

Oh no, wait. Hang on. I reckon I know what you're going to say.

:ugh:

Mike Hotel:

In the past airlines (majors at least) paid for your training. Competition was tough for such places, hence rewards were good.....

.....compare that to.......

......Paying for ratings and then compounding the situation by accepting a bond on that very same type......

.....if you want more reasons why it's gone wrong, ask your Mum. :ugh:

Jazz Hands, might we revisit your glib statement when we really have something to get over? A fatal hull loss attributable to fatigue for instance?

I fear we won't be waiting long.

Back in the 'golden' old days, 1000 hours probably meant you were blasting around in a clapped out twin engine piston powered spam can, or if you were really lucky you were sat in a knackered oily old turbo prop! Ether way you were probably lugging your own cargo or briefing the pax personally. FTL, what were those?

Andrew7, you are not working for a career airline. Get what you can out of it, like a 3000 hour command, and then poke off as soon as a better offer comes along (like the older more experienced captains you speak of are doing!). That's how it is. Not quite the rose tinted industry the media and flight schools had you believe but you are doing something you should be able to get at least some enjoyment out of, and if not then why continue doing it at all?

Just please, don't become one of these bloody old moaners that I come across from time to time!

London Underground train drivers seem to have managed it.

Something for BALPA to learn from maybe? Then again industrial unity amongst pilots - never happen.

When I started on B-737 in 2007, we had a good basic salary, per-diems, overtime, sick pay...

And every year, something has been removed. The first year we had 8 days off in a row (commuting) then they changed it to 4 + 4, with the possibility to take 1 holiday, so it became 5 + 5

Then they removed the sick-pay, yet we had to provide a doctor certificate when sick.

Overtime pay was removed, and before we got another per-diem when arriving after midnight, now this was removed as well...

Some of our captain left for other airlines, but I know of at least one captain who quit flying altogether, he said he was fed up about modern aviation and being treated without respect.

Many of the contract pilots wanted to leave, but the were ?

Most coninued only because they had no other job to go to, this does not mean terms & conditions are fair.

Yes, those who have a job should be happy in one way, compared to those who don't have a job, but coditions are getting worse and worse every year...

i will answer a couple of things.

I would love someone to have sponsered me. However how many European airlines do that these days. ? Secondly you seem to mis-understand i am not complaining about people with 3000 hours getting left seat, if they are good enough then thats great and good for them, however I feel that i would learn a lot more from the older experienced Captains than my 3000 hour "friends" . The statement I made is that the good guys,,,, that is some of the experienced ones,,,, seem to be leaving , and not just my airline but the industry...... in my Airline alone 3 Captains leaving this month and not for other positions but to get out of the game. So how does that leave me thinking? How am I to learn? what future is there in this profession.... I am entering a profession and it appears foolishly thought that it would give me the same satisfaction that my Fathers had. Because one thing I know he would go to work happy and come home happy. I love flying dont get me wrong but its all the bs............... that accompanies it.:ugh::ugh: Maybe I should look elsewhere but I am asking those with the know is it any better any where else ??

You ask these things now? Where have you been hiding? Usually these things are pretty clear when you start on the first page of PPRuNe. So either you have chosen a very shady outfit to work for, or you listen too much to the moaners, or... you have not done your homework before embarking on this career. And how can you say you do not learn from 3000 hour guys? I know what you mean, but isn't that a bit arrogant coming from someone who just started?

So is it better anywhere else? Well, I'm not sure exactly what your expectations are, so can't answer your question. In many airlines, including legacies, you will get command at 3000 hours, and no, I've never had an instructor falling asleep. I know there are big moaners in any company though..

So what else?

Andrew7
 

Hi

Let me give you some, hopefully, positive news. While most companies are at it and are actively trying to reduce our T and C's, this is down to economics and we as a group are letting it happen. For example the Ryan outfit. As a group their pilots have never, as far as I know, joined forces as a whole and made a stand against their management. I am sure that if you were the boss you would do the same, you would be silly not to. Whatever you think about the head man he is certainly a clever businessman.

I have flown in the charter world for five years and through the recent recession have been forced to change companies a few times. Each change was to another carrier where the T and C's were worse than before. However I knew it was a job in a rough time and was not for good. The light at the end of the tunnel for me was the opportunity to fly for a legacy carrier and while there are those that complain about their T and C's they are significantly better than any I have ever experienced in my short career. I feel comfortable, happy and have a roster and work schedule which means I can enjoy my family life and plan a life. I have never enjoyed flying more than I do now.

I suppose all I want to say to you is use your position and the company you are currently in to your advantage. Use them as a means to an end. Build your hours, your experience and when the time is right move on to a company that suits you and will make you happy. They do exist, but remember what suits one doesn't suit everyone so you will always encounter the negative. There are many here who have been flying for a lot longer than I and have much more experience of companies, aircraft and lifestyles. As I did take on all the advice given with a pinch of salt and make your own decision. Don't be a cynic be an optimist!

Yes, what exactly ARE the unions doing in all this? I get my BALPA magazine telling me what cool gadgets to buy this month when they're ignoring the fact that my Ts and Cs are slowly being eroded.

Try that with the LU workers or any RMT member and what would you get!

The really stupid people in life are those that judge things before they are over. That applies to those enjoying their situation and those that aren't.

@Narrow Runway.

I see I was right about you: Sadly, we're not living in the past!

:rolleyes:

In the past there were far fewer opportunities to have a career as a commercial pilot at all.

No one has ever been able to live in the past, so don't be a fool.

The point is the PROFESSION used to have cachet and a status that was rewarded.

True, there were less jobs, but those that were about were invariably better rewarded than now. And even if you were at the bottom of the ladder, there were routes up that ladder.

Now, the only way is to have deep pockets, or rich parents, or occasionally to have real luck.

And generally the jobs now have all the cachet and prestige of a bus driver :yuk::yuk::yuk:

There is a reasonable reason for the modern lack of cachet.


It used to be a genuinely difficult job.
Simple supply and demand of pilots who could do it kept it elite.

It is now not at all difficult to follow the magenta line, and things go wrong so rarely that the airlines don't really worry about the fact that half the pilots are crap. Chances are that nobody will ever find out. It only becomes obvious when there is a smoking hole or, more topically, a big splash

You can't expect respect when we all know that the job is easy. Expensive to get into, but easy.

Tourist, you are funny!

I could give you a multitude of reasons why the job is not so straight forward but I don't need to justify myself or the profession to halfwits. Needless to say that events occur daily that passengers will never know about as they are dealt with by the crews effectively, safely and extremely competently!

To make such sweeping statements, as you have, is ignorant beyond belief. :ugh:

Tourist, put your money where your mouth is. Buy an hours flying in a modern airliner sim, ask to be shown a Standard LPC/OPc or a LOE and report back to us. Then, you may well have a better perception of what you are talking about.

The skills required to fly an aircraft are the same as they ever were. The skills to manage a modern flight deck, crew ,airspace, work schedules, management expectations and requirements are quite different to 40 years ago. So, yes, some of the routine flying has been automated, but the management processes to get us through the working day are a lot more involved.

And finally, when the things are on fire or all the lights have gone out, only the skill of your pilots will allow you to continue living.

Couldn't agree more.

Ignorant muppet.

Ignore tourist. Probably from the Middle East or Africa.

Jazz Hands, it may have escaped your notice but PPRuNe is an AVIATION forum and you are quite likely to find aviation people on here discussing every aspect of the industry, the profession and life in general. It may surprise you to learn that there are other specialist forums out there where other professionals discuss their highs and lows too.

It is called 'life'. get over it.:ugh::rolleyes:

(What is your particular forum, 'Accountants 'R Us'?).

Andrew, Albeit at your own expense you appear to have achieved a massive short cut, totally missing out the highly desirable 1500 to 2000 hours in general aviation where you experience things you don't even want to remember, let alone talk about but which build your experience in ways the RHS of a jet can never do. The advice you have been given is good, live with it, pass your checks, build your hours, take that command, consolidate and move on. Best of luck but do perfect walking before you start running.

Good Advice being given now. With the greatest respect I think some of you are expecting too much too soon. A jet with a 1,000 hours is going well in my book. I am not going to do the "back in my day routine" but I retired a few months ago after 42 years full-time flying and yes I'll say it again, with a 1,000 hours you are going well to be in a jet. Try and use it as a means to an end and more importantly, enjoy it, have a laugh, relax and guess what, the world will laugh with you. I had a ball, wonderful career and it still is. It is what you make of it. I even got the goons at Heathrow Security laughing once! Imagine working in a bank 9-5 or like a friend of mine, a Dentist, looking down peoples throats all day. I have seen and done things ordinary folk could only dream of. Far too much negativity helps no one, life is short, live it.

Wow, some of you guys are a little tense.

73addict

"you passengers"

:rolleyes:

macdo

I have flown steam driven passenger transport aircraft and shiney glass. Plenty of time in modern sims thank you very much.
What about you? Do you base your conviction upon knowledge of the past or just a guess? When was the last time you tried to navigate across the world in an aircraft without GPS?

"but the management processes to get us through the working day are a lot more involved"

You make me laugh! That says everything about what you think piloting is about.

"And finally, when the things are on fire or all the lights have gone out, only the skill of your pilots will allow you to continue living."

This is exactly my point. These events are very rare, and when they happen, the pilots are not always ready for them. Look at Air France!

Take a best case guy with lots of natural talent.
Give him minimal "teach to the exam" flying training.
Then sit him in a cockpit that does just about everything for him for 10yrs, with only the occasional minimal sim stuff every now and then.

That guys arousal level and basic skills are now so atrophied that he may just totally lock up.

Not because he could not have been a great pilot, but because he has never had the opportunity to become one.

The job now is so low challenge in terms of piloting skills that of course the skills will drop, particularly if he does not have the strength of experience from coming from a small aircraft/turboprop/bush pilot or military background.

If you are so convinced that I am wrong, then ask yourself this.

Why, in the olden days, when salaries were huge and hosties were welcoming and time off was endless and life was good and nobody had to pay for their own training was there no mountain of unemployed pilots?

Why nowadays when salaries are low and all the fun is gone and you need rich parents to get you started is there a mountain.

Is it perhaps that in the old days money was not enough to get you wings?
Is it perhaps that Darwin weeded out a lot that were never meant to captain an airliner?

Tourist, are you not overromantisizing the past? There were crappy airlines then, with crappy pay and crappy status. Or were you all treated with the egards of a BA Concord skipper even though you flew for some obscure charter?

What we are trying to say, or at least what I am trying to point out, is that our friend Andrew here is complaining about things as if he is a veteran at the end of his carreer, not a guy who is lucky enough to be where he is right now. If a cadet starts moaning to me about experience levels then I just shake my head and chuckle.

Penko

Yes, of course I am. A bit.

There have always been crappy jobs, but at the other end of the scale there used to be truly great careers with what we now call "legacy airlines"

I think we need to stop whineing though because there was a reason that they used to get paid a lot.
It used to be a difficult club to get into.
Anybody who has seen modern civvy pilot training knows it is not now, and worse, even if you have the "right stuff" you don't get taught the basics.

No stalling!(and what they do teach is frankly dangerous minimum height loss crap)
No spinning!
Training aircraft that are gentle and don't bite!

The airlines/aviation world have taken the gamble that we don't need good pilots anymore because the systems so rarely go wrong.
I think that they are wrong, but the people who set the standards for licences and type ratings seem to disagree.

It is very easy to get our wages back up. Make it very very difficult to pass the next check.

Unfortunately, the CAA training schools etc make more money from people passing tests, so there is no incentive.

I don't know if that's right Tourist. I and the majority of people I know have been trained in exactly the same aircraft following exactly the same syllabus for more than 30 years, flying, stalling in Cessna's and Pipers. The MPL licence has yet to materialize fully, so training cannot be the reason for the problem you see.

Now the only thing that has changed operationally is the fact that we have SATNAV. The rest is exactly the same as 30 years ago. So yes we follow magenta lines, and we are not endlessly dialling up VOR's. But let's be honest, was that really rocket science? Hard work, yes.

And automation? My own opinion is that I have had to invest by far more brain cells in undestanding my A320 aircraft than the 737 tractor I used to fly. Go figure.

Can you see where it started to go wrong?
 

If you really want to know where it all started, it was a :mad:
called Frank Lorenzo at Continental Airlines who in 1985 had
kicked it all off. From then on it was only a matter of time.

Tourist, flight simulator doesn't count as flying! :ok:

All this talk of the "old days", wake up, just hazard a guess at the increase in passenger numbers between this rosy time you speak of and today.

I will do it for you, in 1970 Gatwick had 5 million pax pass through and in 2010 there were over 31 million. Heathrow 1960 14 million/year and 2010 67 million. I wonder what could possibly be the reason for there being more pilots!!!

:D