Wage Slaves? - RAeS article on P2F
 

The Royal Aeronautical Society magazine Aerospace International has published an in depth article about Pay to fly schemes in the latest edition (May 2011).

It covers the advent of self sponsored type ratings and the more recent pay for "line training" schemes.

Too little, too late.

Aviation authorities worlwide should, and should have long ago, jumped on these "pimp my ride" scheming bar-stewards.

It truly disgusts me to see Flight International accepting Ads from AFA via Eagle Jet offering A320 time (with fare paying punters behind you) in a Turkish "airline" Ha bloody Ha!! :D for 70€ an hour up to 100hr, reducing to 50€ an hr if you prostitute yourself for 500 hr :yuk:

Oops sorry, wrong description, during prostitution YOU are paid to be screwed, in this instance YOU pay to be screwed.

I can't even think of a description for this, even slavery is not sufficient, as a slave you are forced to work for free. Here YOU pay to work.

Yes, here YOU pay to work ! ! ! F. F. S. :ugh:

How sad is the level this "profession" has been allowed to descend to.

Accountant driven airlines I can't stomach, but regretably can probably understand, but regulators/unions ? ? ? :mad:

Why would they? They are policing standards and not ethics. A regulator is only interested in ensuring that a crew member has been trained to the required standard and is safe and competent to operate. How they achieve that is not within their mandate. Until there is a firm link between such schemes and safety, then the CAA (or whoever) have little reason to intervene. It is potentially dangerous to put all 'pay to fly' schemes into the 'unsafe' category, since the more reputable training organisations and operators, do indeed set the bar high.

The finger should not be pointed at the CAA, for now at least. It is the unions, representative bodies and those in airlines that adopt such schemes, that are to blame. The time for lobbying was years ago and not now.

not only in aviation, in other professions it 's the same problem.

this is a free world, no one can stop you to hire someone for free, or ask someone to pay a fortune to make a job which should be paid. This is called benevolat, or stage.

as long suckers pay to fly like in an aeroclub, why should they pay you? think about it !

The regulatory authorites need to police every aspect of aviation operations. Risk is increased with p2f schemes being offered and there should be action taken to minimise this at every level. The CAA has already had a warning http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...JZ%2012-08.pdf.

The RAeS article makes relevant points but it seems much of the research was done through BALPA, the same outfit that advertises SSTR schemes in it's journal and is unwilling to confront the "pilot mills"/ "approved schools" that promote such schemes (possibly because many of it's members work for the schools part time as TREs/TRIs......).

P2F will end when it becomes too expensive for wage slaves to get loans or (sadly) when accidents happen.

P2F loans are already getting hard to come by as a number of young pilots have gone so deeply in debt that personal bankrupcy has been the only way out. So the banks are now seeing P2F loans as bad business unless secured by other assets.

And Mummy and Daddy's house may not be great collateral anytime soon!

Why, I wonder, in every accident report they estate the flight experience of the pilots?

Might it be because there is a link between experience and safety?

If so, is it safe when airlines maintain low experienced pilots permanently seating as copilots?

Statistics show the older pilots have more accidents than the younger ones, and you can assume the younger ones have less experience. Maybe the question of how much training is taking place is more appropriate, are these guys getting value for money from the training process or being cut loose too soon?

Really ?

Can you provide those statistics they would be interesting to examine.

how those statistics predicated, does it allow for factoring in accordance with command structure? in what environment are those statics based corporate, commercial, GA? in what geographic region are the statistics based ?

would very much like to examine them.

Of course the pilots that have been flying longer statistically have had more " opportunities" for error. Its a bit like asking if the Ford Focus is less safe than the Clio as it has had more wacks, well, yes if there are more of them its stands to reason! The problem with Pilot statistics is that often there can be no relationship between age and experience as people join late in life or as cadets. In theory, if a guy passes a line check he should be capable, regardless of age or experience, does the mentoring stop just because they PTF...This is also of interest..well to me anyway!

Pilot Experience vs Youth .THE REALITY

Kirks Gusset - You are twisting stats it's outrageous!
 

Dear Mr. Gusset,

That claim is outrageous! := There is no way that you can justify your statement; are you seriously trying to say that a young inexperienced cadet, who is paying for his seat time, with all the experience behind him of a Baker is less prone to accidents than the experienced operator with years of service under his belt? Waterson next? We should be bigging up this occupation & making sure that only the relevant experience is at the Sharpe end of the aircraft. Bring back the days of the 'Raj' I say, where everyone new his place & their experience counted for the job that they did & that amounted to safety conscious travel. I don't want my family flying with a Big Nell at the front who has to be wet nursed &, God forbid in the case of an incident, would be found to be seriously wanting.

We need our regulators to control this P2F outrage so that the fare paying public & we, as professional aviators, stop taking it up the starfish! ;)

Well, we could start bullying them so they don't want to come to work...

Just a thought since the mighty plan of "stop it now" didn't work :ugh:

Paint schemes?
 

Remember Virgin's "4 engines are better than fewer across the Atlantic" type slogans (yes I know they now have A330), or EZY's early 737s with phone number on the sides or RYR's goodbye to Airline XX......

Maybe an airline with some clout could market a "we say no to P2F" or "we pay for our Pilot's Line training so you won't have to" slogan on the sides of their shiny jets to get some media attention!

With regard to the experience v youth debate - we all had to start somewhere, but self selection via P2F is far worse than a low houred youngster selected on merit (eg: Armed Forces pilots). I'd be happier sending my family on a flight with a 22 yr old 500h ex RAF Tucano graduate as FO than the new (potentially no solo flying) MPL scheme cadet......

G'day all, i would like to share some of my views about this P2F issue.

I'm a student pilot currently. And i'm against this scheme that airlines do to screw the pilots around. It's really disgusting and degrading. To pay a fortune in flight training and still have to fork out another fortune to get a job? now that is really ridiculous. Honestly i do not know of any other industry that makes you pay to get a job.

From what i know and see, is that there is a gap between the period of time where newly minted CPL pilots with endorsements graduate from flight school and the point where they can meet the initial requirements of most flying jobs i see in advertisements.

At most, they will finish their training with 250-300hrs flight time, but most jobs (just from the ads i look through) have requirements of at least 500-1000hrs flight time. Even for smaller companies they have a high requirement. Not many companies will hire a low timer fresh out of flight school.

Why aren't the regulating authorities working to stop this? Sooner or later this totally undermine the pilots rights in the future. :ugh: I'm guessing if this happened in any other industry, that industry would be up in arms and the governments would take a stand on it. Why isn't this happening to the aviation industry.

I think the reason that it's not happening in this industry dl_88 is there are simply too many younger guys who still see this job as something that it once used to be, i.e., well paid, glamorous, great time off, jet set lifestyle etc., etc. :O

No surveyor, accountant or estate agent, for example, would be prepared to fork out the amounts of money towards his/her career that pilots do & yet in all three of the mentioned jobs you can earn far more than a pilot & be at home with the family, not staying in the poorest rooms that the hotels would never give to a 'paying' guest, working on the back of the clock whilst being away from your loved ones on ever tighter schedules :zzz:

The authorities don't regulate against it because they can't. If a person has the requisite license, hours & ratings to sit in the right seat then what can they do?

I grew up having that mindset, but though it has changed, I still love flying. So i'm doing for my passion. I do know, that to survive in this industry, there must be a passion and if someone's in for the money, boy are they gonna get a rude awakening.

Instead of clamping down on the pilots themselves, why not on the management of airlines who condone the use of P2F Schemes? Does anyone know when did it start out from?

dl_88, I'm delighted that you, "still love flying," I really am. I see from your profile that you are 23 years old & I remember the time (not that long ago ;))when I too, loved flying. However, now that the gloss has gone from this industry; that Parc are paying 777 f/os less than a London bus driver at TNT, that Ryanair are flying round with only the front left seat not having been paid for by someone etc., etc., you will find that as life progresses you'll want financial reward rather than a slap in the face just because you "love" flying. You won't find it anymore. What, "Passion," could anyone possibly have for constantly working through the night, suffering jet lag, minimum rest at all destinations, being away from your family, being held totally accountable when the sh1t hits the fan with no company back-up; working with flight attendants who have an attitude the size of Mexico city & have zero respect for you because they are delighted that the, "Rich captain," has taken a hit in his wallet? We don't do this for the sake a vocational calling: leave that to the doctors & nurses who deserve every cent they receive.

And, so long as pilots keep accepting these garbage conditions the worse it will get.

As far as when the P2F thing started; I remember BMI, British Midland as it was then, offering type rating courses on the 737 for anyone willing to pay for it around 1990. Of course the big explosion in P2F was with Ryanair, probably 2001-2002.

Xerox 25, you smoking crack, Buddy?

X-Centric, Outrageous! I am certainly not twisting the facts, Unfortunately, we have no influence over the thought process, or lack of it with senior management and bean counters. The " relevant experience" comes at a cost and the facts are all airlines are trying to remain competitive and reducing the cost per cockpit. Now, if that means, having some Elephant washer in the front end, probably with bare feet and his dad's pant on, then that's a fact of life. I agree entirely, the industry is not what it used to be, the shine has gone, however,there is still a mutleytude of people out there, willing to sit in our seats for less money.The only reason these guys survive is they are probably on some dodgy off-shore no tax contract, raping the NHS services and running with the foxes while chasing with the hounds. I can't afford to eat at Subway these days , in hotels I find myself having to drink the same awful brandy as the travelling public, it's a disgrace!

I'm sorry Mr. Gusset, I just have to sit down. It's opinions such as yours that mean we pilots have to continually take it up the starfish with no lube! Your post is an outrage. And when the young pup has had an incident just watch the management team produce so much octopus ink for a smoke screen that you can't even see where you're swimming in Sligo bay. :ugh:

I agree with you on one point, however, the only way that some of these young jockeys can glean back their expenditure is to skip out on their rightful tax dues, thereby becoming a burden on society, who in the name of California would condone such behaviour: I tell you this P2F has to stop, it's Dastardly.

I hear you about our salaries: I had to eat in McDonald's the other day down route: the Subway was, alas, just as in your case, out of my price range. These days I can't afford a Euro for a Celtic sausage. :oh: (hell if I even bought the sausage my Pussy would snatch the thing as Per a cat's rights to do). :*

why? because we are the authority.
This is called free democracy.
Until now, passengers don't complain, so why should they make pression on our authorities to stop these schemes?
Pilots just have to say NO, and P2F will stop.

It' s happening in many other industry, advertising by exemple, where young professionals pay companies (or work for free), for 6 months, then are out, and have to find another unpaid position.

Count they have to pay fuel, transport,... they still sleep at mom's house eating food with dad money. This is called Pay to Work in my point of view.
Why do they accept this? why they don't take the time to look for a proper job?, try to know people? because at school they have been fed with answers to their questions and have never learned to work by themselves(EU/US mentality !).

Instead to waste your money in these idiotic P2F schemes, take the time to travel and meet people around you, this is how it works, or you will be part of the 99% of unemployed pilots stealing food at the airport between 2 P2F's flights.

forget about sending CV, or asking for P2F scams...it's not working!

With the global economic crisis still in full swing - at least in the southern EU states, it is becoming much harder for P2F cadets to find funding. Even the approved schools are having to find alternative banks:

"We work hard to provide a ‘one stop facility’ to help both potential pilots and their parents understand all aspects of the application, funding and training process and provide a clear picture of the current employment prospects,” says CTC’s Head of Corporate Communications, Karen Bath. “Our guest speakers are always of a very high calibre and having Lindsay there to talk from a British Airways perspective will no doubt be a great attraction.”

Apart from the obvious attractions of the key speakers and simulators, visitors will also be able to:

•Discuss funding options with representatives from the BBVA (Banco Bilbao Vizcaya Argentaria, S.A) and CTC’s own finance team
•Learn more about what airlines and training providers are looking for at selection"


"BBVA is a global group that offers individual and corporate customers the most complete range of financial and non-financial products and services. It enjoys a solid leadership position in the Spanish market, where it first began its activities over 150 years ago"

BBVA is the only bank I think in the UK still lending but only if your parents remortage the house correct?

WTF is going on with this industry ?
 

This week's Flight has AtlasJet advert to pay 35000 euro for 500h " line training".
Balpa magazine advertises Self Sponsored Type Ratings

Worst of all prune is covered with a320 p2f adverts!

Come on mods let's have a new thread where pruners can vote on P2f

There must be an alternative income stream for the forum surely ?

Just an insight
 

Hi there,

As a newly graduated pilot let me just say a few things from my point of view about the whole p2f schemes and bashing.

Having been graduated for a while now after spending so much money on my aviation licences the return on the investment is a little more than lacking. Consider the options someone like me faces. I could spend £8-9k more on a instructors rating and earn a paltry 11-12k a year for at least 2 years losing earning potential through loss of experience on jets. Or I could get a desk job biding my time for a gap to open for a year or two. Again, loss of earning potential and experience further down my career.

Now, imagine pilot's who don't have degree's and are wholly dependant on their flying licence after being sold a stupid and rather unrealistic dream by those 'self approved' flight schools. They, in essence can't get a normal desk job either.

What option do they have left. Sit around twiddling their thumbs looking at all the 1500TT 500 jet time jobs flying by or push through with a p2f scheme to be able to start earning after the second large sacrifice made.

Now, the problem is all of YOU aviation professionals within the industry. I'm sorry but you guys are just lazy and selfish. You have schools up and down the country using your companies logo's to sell pilot's licences and I have yet to encounter one pilot that would take the time to tell it how it is to newbies.

Then you turn around and blame the new guy's for messing up your T's & C's when they haven't even started working for your company. There is no demand in the aviation industry now or in the foreseeable future in Europe that can't be met by the pilots already here. But, have you even bothered to listen to what the flight schools are selling these 'kids' about job and earning prospects for everyone. The answer is NO. They are saying things on your behalf without you even knowing about it.

The only time a pilot actually came voluntarily to tell me how it is was when I was in school doing my A-levels. A BA pilot who actually was very realistic and encouraging. You guys have have your unions fighting for better pay and rosters etc but, how about taking some time out to hold seminars for aspiring pilots. After all you will work with them one day.

Do you know where this pay to fly scheme starts? It's right at the beginning with choosing flight training organisations. All CAA licence's are equal and the test's done are equal. So then why is it that Integrating students are looked on preferentially by airlines. I had a BA HR pilot tell me that we only take newbie integrated guys period. So I asked 'What about having a degree?' The response 'Meh, it doesn't matter'. So, new guys are paying in excess of £20k more for flight training to be preferred by an airline.

Why is it that CTC can charge £8600 for an MCC/JOC when other good outfit's only charge £4k. Because, it is essentially a extension of P2f. CTC give a chance to be selected by an airline 2 years down the line.. maybe.

So, why is it you guys complain when a 'newbie' is willing to spend 30k more for a p2f for a 'chance' to fly and earn for an airline. The root cause of all of this is airlines and pilot's laziness and indifference about anything but themselves. Airlines should pick, train and employ the pilot's if you want the p2f scheme to go away but should not overlook pilot's who are already in the system.

I am neither bitter or enthusiastic about the industry. Having my family in the business for 3 generations, I know exactly how it works and know exactly what to expect for myself. But, a sincere thanks for not doing anything other than whine.:ok:

OR you could have read all the signs (or indeed the numerous posts on this forum) that would have told you not to spend so much money with no employment prospects ahead of you. Unless you started training in mid 2006 on an integrated course you could not stop - then the only person to blame is yourself.

If you couldn't read those signs then you would probably fail to read the wx charts correctly and fly directly into a massive cell system and also be blaming us for not doing anything about your stupidity.

thanks
 

let me make this clear. I did not mean to personally offend anyone and this was my view. I made my decisions and am very happy about it. I have a very good job to hold me over and measured my risk vs reward. My post was to introduce you to the predicaments of other newbie pilots who get constant bashing on these forums. It is really hard to get decent and trustworthy information about the situation of the industry especially when you're just starting out.

@Globally Challenged

Your ability to distinguish pilot skills based on a forum post is truly amazing. But, your ability to personally attack someone on a forum post is quite a show of character. Maybe Pprune has jaded you over the years. You added nothing to the thread that was either informative or vaguely interesting. I still hold aviation professionals to the high standards it used to be and would prefer if you helped rather than attacked your fellow aviators. After all we are on the same team. Right?

Whilst I understand the passion within the industry, the likes of "DOOD" have it right.

This is a purely economic argument....all CPL's being (ostensibly) equal.
the newly -graduated now find themselves in a very large pool of potential jet-jockeys.

the commercial operators are currently spoiled for choice- should they get on the tax/NI/holiday-pay/sickpay/human-rights/employment-law/ potential tribunal et al. carousel that is the lot of a 21'st century employer, AND pay a not-insignificant salary to the tyro who "wins" their weeding-out process, so he /she can play with their shareholder's multi-million pound tin bird, -OR

should they do a preliminary sift through the wannabe's by eliminating a large slab of their operating-cost of each flight?

It really is a no-brainer.

Come the day the balance swings the other way (remember those heady days of unlimited expansion?) the pay-offers will improve, conditions and terms will dramatically improve as operators vie with other to hire staff with the requisite bits of paper to sit at the pointy end.....heck, they've even been known to poach each other's staff.........
BUT all that was in the day when there were more passengers than seats, more aircraft than crew, and all budding pilots knew there was a job waiting if they had the ability and nous to get the basic qualifications.

The world's moved on, the boot is on the other foot.- Any commercial undertaking who did not take advantage of the situation would lose competitive advantage to those who did, witness the extraordinary growth of the LoCo carriers,who are, effectively, international flying-bus operators, as opposed to the legacy-carriers who can be likened to private-hire limousines.

I do sympathise with those who are frustrated, but it isn't going to alter any time soon.

Retirements and lack of economic incentive will ultimately trim pilot-numbers to suit demand........then the whole cycle will repeat.....C'est la vie.

Some thoughts on the profession these hopeful kids are buying their way into...

'A profession in decline' - Learmount

someone here should explain me why in the UNITED STATES you can not buy a P2F program in a part 121 airline, but can do in Europe?

wrong target
 

dood - I think you have the wrong end of the stick - it is not the cadets we are criticising but the system that gets them into £120k debt. There was a better way in the past and yes it took longer to get the jet job but the experience described in Learmont's blog mentioned in last post is not gained by sitting in the cruise for 500h watching the automation fly the machine whilst you pay the company Euro 35000.

Becoming a flying instructor or flying light twins in GA was a right of passage for most up until the advent of JAR in the late 1990s. Very few cadet systems existed apart from larger airlines such as BA. Yes PPL instructing is poorly paid. In my own case I was self employed for a while with an income of just £7/flying hour in the mid 1990s. But there are professional instructors for the main CPL/IR schools as well as military contractors. In both cases salaries can be up to £50k for the experienced ones.

There are many professional pilots who oppose what has happened in the industry. They have fought long and very hard to stop the abuse of junior crews - not just protect the older members pay packets. Unions such as the IPA have advised folk away from TRSS where there were no g-tees of work thereafter.

Now they are campaigning against P2F:
"We at the Independent Pilots Association are concerned at the growing number of Pay to Fly schemes and associated fixed term contracts, that provide low salaries. So much so, that we sent a letter on the 13th April 2010, to Captain R.M. Jones, Head of Flight Operations Division, Civil Aviation Authority, voicing these concerns.

We received a response dated 4th May 2010 from Captain Jones, which is available in the I.P.A office."

Should have sent it to Captain O.P. Jones.

Seriously, though, nobody on this thread has mentioned the real threat of P2F. After paying 'n' thousand scroots* for the "training," there is no guarantee of being hired. Thus, the 250 hour wunderkind can be replaced by another hopeful willing to part with another 'n' thousand scroots, thereby perpetuating a series of inexperienced FOs in the right hand seat of passenger carrying jet transport aircraft.

Give me QANTAS any day!

* scroot = 1 unit of the relevant local currency

I still remember the key moment I decided that aviation was a schmucks games and is best left as a hobby. It was when I applied for my first mortgage, and the lady in the bank wanted to know my profession. There were two options, and this is what it said on her screen:
1) PROFESSIONAL (eg. Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer, Accountant)
2) SEMI-SKILLED (eg. Labourer, Construction worker, Pilot)

@ v6g

Ouch, that hurt.:ugh:

First law in the EU constitution:


"ask your dady for t/r and XXXX hours of line training, and PAY TO WORK until the airline kick you out for the next idiot who believe he will get a paid job!"


I love Europe!:}