Pilot shortage? Go for DEPs and DECs!
 

High time legacy airlines do away with the archaic and ridiculous practice of upgrading from within. Also do away with all the silly current seniority systems. The pilot fraternity is the dinosaur and laughing stock of all professional groups. My friends from the medical, engineering, legal and accounting communities never fail to point out that pilots are shooting themselves in the feet for sticking to such a stupid system. Small wonder the airline managements are using this to their advantage!

The thing is, Nicholas Nickle

Unlike any other profession you care to mention, we are paid NOT to be original. In fact, we are paid to be very much the same - repetitious, boring and predictable. The safety of generations of accumulated wisdom, passed on down the line.
That is why the best vehicle for promotion is consistency and ability in the sim, and seniority. It helps discourage the smart-@rses trying something unpredictable. No old bold pilots, as they say.

Your first post - I know - but 1 out of 10 for knowing your subject.

Sorry Nick if you are unemployed at present, but we have all been there at least once. Thats the point, I only want to do unemployment once and I would guess, so do you.
In this hyper-unstable industry, so at the whim of world financial storms, LIFO and seniority is the rock that we cling to in the hope of a decent retirement and combined with a bit of hard work, the only chance we have at promotion.
Beware of what you wish for.......:=

There is some, no, in fact a lot of truth in what Nicholas Nickle has proposed. You get where you are in other industries because of skill and experience. In our own, out-dated, system the ones that are below standard and would not pass the interviews of today are merely protected by the seniority system.

Seniority within an airline merely ensures that an individual will be considered for Command/promotion etc. It does not guarantee they will get it, only that they will at least be considered for the selection. They still have to get through the selection process and subsequent training, and then remain competent.

Seniority should stop mates of the chief pilot just walking in to a company and taking desirable posts that long term employees should be considered for.

Seniority is a policy related to Government and Military neither of which exist in a Private airline. For each post a healthy mix of internal and external candidates should be chosen and the winner should be the one who performs on that day. One cannot allow the company to sink for the whims of a few!

For those who think flying is boring and repetitive ... maybe you need a change in profession....

No hard feelings just my frank opinion.

I'm with you Nic.n seniority is out dated and now used by companies to keep pay down!

Seniority within a company - yes - once two pilots are employed, the junior should not overtake the senior.

However side entry onto "the list" should be available for outside recognised experience. Employ a 10,000 hour pilot, and that pilot shouldn't be placed in a second officer position behind a 250 hour pilot who joined the day before - now that is stupid.

It's a very old argument, though.

Why? Seniority is about loyalty to the company, not flying hours or experience. Should a 10000 hour pilot be permitted side entry above pilot with 8000 hours in the company? Of course not. Bottom of the list for him. And yes, below the 250 hours S/O.

What is the connection between pilot shortage and seniority lists? A rather peculiar angle to use to launch an attack on seniority lists.

I am with Nicholas on this one. The seniority system is a very antiquated system. I think it should be abolished. I seem to remember that any new start airline, after a certain date, cannot implement a seniority system under EU law due to discrimination. Not having a seniority system promotes free trade. This can only be good for terms and conditions. In a seniority system management know they have the upper hand with regards to very experienced crew because they know they cannot just up sticks and go to another operator (with a few exceptions). Get rid of it I say!

hate to pee on yer bonfire old chap but
Best t's and c's in the uk belong to airlines with seniority systems, worst t's and c's to those without.
Anyone who thinks that a meritocracy exists is either very naive or has little experience of working in a professional career in the real world.
I've had a previous 15 year professional engineering career in a very reputable blue chip multinational where promotion was on merit. Except that merit actually meant playing golf with the right people. Staying late unpaid. Being a yes man, etc etc etc. competency had very little to do with anything.
Meritocracys (like many lovely touchy feely concepts) are theoretically great, but practically don't work because of human nature, greed, envy etc etc.
I've also spent 5 years working for a small airline with no seniority list and cannot wait to start in BA next month. I may be going on the bottom of the list, but at least I know, absolutely 100% what my prospects and options are.

Anyway who says the other industrys are better. Medical industry has an 'accident' rate that would kill the airline industry in a week. Finance...so competent they destroyed the entire global economy.'nuff said really. Lawyers - I think you'll find the top city partnerships will work you half to death and do have an informal seniortiy system anyway. Nobody comes in the front door to a partnership.
The only people that generally complain about seniority are those at the bottom who would sell their sole to get ahead and look what that greed has done to t's and c's in ryanair.

nicolas.nickle.

I can't see what you are complaining about? There are plenty of carriers out there who do not employ seniority systems. In the UK alone, two of the three largest carriers don't have such a system. As a result they have been able to offer terms and conditions that have enabled them to pioneer rock bottom headline fares! The trouble is, that from these forums alone, they don't seem to have fostered the utopia you alude to.

Promoting from within a company is entirely a correct and proper concept. For the employer it allows them to select people with a history that they can verify and vouch for, (something else that seems a little woeful from some of the threads on here!) It provides for a career plan and rewards an employees loyalty provided they attain the requisite level of experience and ability.

A seniority system with incremental salary scales, rewards an employees loyalty. Doing away with such scales simply provides one rate for the job. That rate (judging by those companies who have employed this practice) is not only at a median scale, but evidently at a very weak level of industry average.

The only hope for pilots stuck in the mire of the terms and conditions that you find in those companies who have adopted the practices that you advocate, is to move to somewhere better. For example, some of the "legacy" carriers who do not ignore loyalty and domestic talent. Of course there isn't much of an exodus from those carriers, so there isn't any particular demand for non-entry level positions either.

The irony of your argument, is that it is the managements of the airlines who have adopted the practices you advocate, that have used this to their advantage.

Bealzebub, 757 Driver,

I just dont agree with your way of thinking. How would you feel if you had to move on from a company that employs seniority, and please dont say you would contemplate such a move from your so called legacy carrier, look what happen to the BA Captain who crashed an aircraft through no fault of his own and was pushed into resignation. Do you think his level of skill and experience should be disregarded? Do you think it is correct to have him placed at the bottom of a seniority list of another company behind a inexperienced cadet!? Anyone with half a brain cell knows thats ridiculous:rolleyes:

Terms and conditions have not suffered in the airlines you referred to because of a lack of a seniority. The conditions have eroded due to a lack of union representation. Two very different things.

The difficulty with not using length of service (seniority) is how do you promote people fairly? Any First Officer that passes their licence check? What if there are a number of pilots all of similar standard? How do you differentiate? Do it by ballot? Or will it be at the whim of the Chief Pilot?

I'm not sure that the lack of a seniority system is entirely linked to the poor t's and c's in the low cost sector. There are a number of other factors that come into it. At the moment in Ryanair as an FO your pay increases with your JAR25 hours and everyone is offered an interview for command upgrade at 2900 hrs.

Also in airlines like BA where you have a mixed fleet and an unstable roster (ie. not 5/4) there is more need for a system of seniority when you are bidding for days off, trips, fleet change etc. Almost none of this would be relevant in Ryanair. The only time some sort of seniority might be good would be when applying for annual leave and base transfers.

To me this is just a bit strange the whole argument of seniority lists. As far as I am concerned, and this is just my opinion, they are fantastic in the airline business. I quite agree that in other areas of business they do not suit or work but for those of us in the airline business they are a reassuring and comforting thing to achieve.
The airlines are constantly changing and with that comes a lot of uncertainty the idea of a seniority list helps promote loyalty, builds platforms for future growth and provide reward. As someone has already pointed out seniority does not guarantee a better position or financial gain as there are constant assessments and challenges to face in the aim of bettering oneself. They are however there to provide those the opportunity to do those things. It is all well and good to talk about the extremes of position i.e. the 10000hr Capt and the 250hr First Officer but think of all those in the middle. There have been many threads on the supposed experience perception based on hours. Those adamant that more hours equals more experience blah blah but as we pilots all know, yes hours give you experience but it is also based on far more that just flight time: Take-offs, Landings, variety of destinations, hand flying experience and weather but to name a few.
A seniority based system provides large companies with an entry level on which to build and it is then presumed that throughout your time at the company you will gain the experience that is required to take on the next step. Let us not forget that all those in these companies have had to pass a selection process to be there and so are expected to be of a certain competence already.
Seniority systems and T and C's are not indicatively linked but more the work forces representation by union and their own voice. A strong union presence helps control the attempts to degrade T&C's but the industry is significantly harder now than it has been and negotiations have to be made and agreements reached.
Each business is unique and I don't think it is really appropriate to compare the medical, financial and legal world with each other or aviation. As for the heading PILOT SHORTAGE where is that then? Certainly not in the UK. Maybe in the Far East or Middle East but culture then plays a significant part in a companies structure and that is a whole other discussion.
Like I said just my opinion.

billy one sock

it is not rediculous, and people are not 'placed' anywhere. You wanna work for a company you play by their rules. You know what the rules are at BA, you know what the rules are at ryanair - theres no point working for either then complaining about the system they use.
Theres a whole generation of people in this industry and all others that think they have some devine right to have the world work by their rules. It doesn't work like that. you have to play the cards you're dealt, not spend your whole life trying to change the deck and shoot the dealer.
If you don't like seniority systems then go and work for a company without one, but don't complain when another bright young thing wants to short cut the system and cuts in front of you by agreeing to work for less, chatting up the chief pilot, has the right face etc etc.

i'll state again my own experiences - I've worked in a so called meritocracy and it is a deeply flawed system - it is far far too exposed to corruption. Ultimately if you want an uncorrupt system, then it has to be based on a factual, objective (not subjective) parameter. Date of joining is such a parameter. I'm sure there are a few others. But 'merit', 'performance' etc are subjective and corruptable, even if you have a proper system built around them - which most companies don't.

Seniority is not all good and not all bad, however it is based on the assumption that one airline can suit ones whole career, therefore it is something often found in career-airlines, aka legacy carriers. And as showed in the previous posts it can make it easier to defend your terms and conditions or even improve them.

But they can be a major p.i.t.a as well, for one lateral movement is pretty much impossible between seniority based companies, for another it can make mergers quite difficult. At the moment we try to integrate three seniority lists into one, with extreme differences in age and time in company between all three and it proves to be a major issue (and sadly, among other collective agreement issues, reduces my flying time to around 300 hours a year instead of 750). However seniority helped us to improve our working conditions quite a lot and even our wages.

Operational Seniority
 

The concept of operational seniority in which an airline repays loyalty etc with the DOJ seniority towards postings, choice of flights etc and keeps the command upgrades based on merit, experience, flying skill etc.

This is as followed by Middle Eastern Airlines and some in India.

Seems to work for them!

Fair enough Billy one sock, you don't have to agree. However the carrier you work for now already employs the practices you advocate, and in all honesty your posting history doesn't hold them up as a shining beacon for the path forwards. For example:
The example you quote of the BA captain isn't really valid in that it was quite a complicated combination of post accident events that caused the captain to resign. It was a resignation and not a dismissal. The matter was resolved with the captain being reinstated to his previous rank by mutual subsequent agreement. The captain concerned ran up against problems with certain overseas carriers in respect of DEC employment simply by virtue of the fact he had been involved in an accident, rather than the circumstances of how that accident had occurred. The example is therefore fairly meaningless. However if he had applied to an airline that adopted the same seniority and promotion practices as his own employer of choice, then yes he most certainly would have assumed a seniority and rank that initially placed him behind a new cadet. In fact that is what he would have expected and no doubt accepted had he chose that particular course of action.

For almost any experienced pilot in work, the four or five major proponents of the schemes you advocate (including your own employer,) would almost certainly rank near the bottom of a list of employer preference. The reason being that the terms and conditions are so appalling.

If you want to jump ship to another employer, you need to pick and choose carefully. The best ones will nearly always require you to join at the bottom of the list and work your way up. Failing that, there is always contract work.

Do I think that is fair? Yes I do. Do I think loyalty should be recognised and rewarded? Yes I do. Do I think that those who have served time with an employer and shown themselves to be capable should be promoted in order of their place in a queue? Yes I do. Do I have "half a brain"? The requirement my employer lays down is twice that level.

I have worked for my present company for 26 years. If I were to leave or be made redundant tommorow the best I could hope to expect working for a non-seniority based operator in this country would be around 50-60% of my current salary even if I were taken on in the same rank. For employment with a desirable operator, I would expect to be earning less still and to be at the bottom of their seniority list. It would be only right that longer serving employees would have a salary and promotion opportunity benefit commensurate with their own length of service.


I think you are torturing your own argument? Most of the better carriers allow and encourage union representation. However that hasn't stopped the downward spiral in terms and conditions across the industry. The reason being primarilly, that those new carriers whose practices you advocate have forced costs down to rock bottom. In order to compete on anything like a level playing field, the better employers have also had to make cuts. It is now much harder to reward loyalty. It is much harder to offer good retirement, medical, health, insurance and lifestyle benefits.

I am guessing you knew what you were getting into, when you made the career choices that you did? I certainly did. If you aren't happy, then look for something better, but don't suppose that others (who were luckier or made better choices than you,) should move aside to allow you to assume some perceived queue jumping strategy that you feel you should be entitled to.

Seniority and internal promotions wherever possible, are the hallmarks of the better employers. The lack of them is but one of the tools employed to drive down costs. It is hard to see why you (or me or anybody else) would be entitled to the rewards that loyalty might afford with one carrier, when that same person has contributed nothing directly towards them.

I think you want your cake and eat it.

Nick is wrong for a number of reasons. His friends in other professions may laugh - I frankly do not think they do, but that is another story. The fact is that these other professions are nepotistic and corrupt - in many cases who you have round for dinner is what determines your future. They have the same problem, particularly with doctors where many high calibre candidates exist for the same jobs. I never want work for an airline where the chief pilot decides who gets promoted this week. Seniority is like democracy - it is full of flaws, but a million times better than the alternatives.

Shock horror!, doesn't that go against the seniority regime :rolleyes:

Exactly.

The seniority system does work on merit btw - when your time for command comes you'll be rigourously assessed. If you meet the high standards required then you get a command. If you don't, you don't.

The training department ensures that only people who meet the required standard get commands. The seniority system ensures that meeting the required (high) standard is the only criteria used, not whether you play golf with the chief pilot.

The system is completely fair and has existed for decades and everyone knows about it. If you choose to pursue other career options before joining a 'seniority airline' then that's fine, I hope you enjoyed it. But don't now bitch about a perfectly fair system, that many made sacrifices to join earlier in their career.

As has been said by many, the airlines with the best Ts&Cs seem to be the seniority based ones.

I doubt anyone complained! However in that case it simply re-established the status quo that had existed previously, rather than contradicting the seniority system. I believe there were special and extenuating circumstances, that most sensible people fully appreciate and understand.

Do you have a point to make, that doesn't involve this unrelated event?

The whole argument regarding seniority for pilots versus merit with doctors, lawyers and other office-wallahs usually misses the point. In most hospitals you have some doctors. In a law firm you'll have a couple of partners. In an airline you have hundreds if not thousands of pilots.

This is the difference!!!!!! Numbers!!!! Oh poor lowly F/Os who are bitching here about the system... It's life. Accept that this is how aviation works. Personally, as a XX,000hr Captain I would expect (correctly) to join the bottom of the list if I went to CX or SQ... End of story!

White Knight, hypothetically if this was a world without airline seniority in so much as you could join CX / SQ / QF / EK / VS / BA etc in your current position would you? Plus there's the possibility of going back to your original airline in the future if they are hiring.

(Airlines I'd imagine would have a DOJ system by default to sort out staff travel rosters etc so you may take a hit there etc).

My point being movement costs money, A/C ratings are a huge investment and your current airline might like to keep you so even if you left for a paycut for lifestyle they will have to train someone to replace you.

Jo Bloggs might say his kids are all grown up he's done with this airline, time to chase some $$$, his current airline for the same reasons don't want him to leave as it will cost money to train the new guy/girl.

Plus a lot of legacy carries aren't going to be happy having an unknown come in and fail to meet the standard.

Airlines love stability and they have it by default with a seniority system without it the only way to get it is to $$$.

And pilots who say it makes them feel warm and fuzzy is an airline accountants wet dream.

People leave pay goes up. Seniority prevents people leaving.

I only disagree with the fact that seniority restricts movement and therefore $$$.

One final thought if airlines thought seniority cost too much would they not try and remove it, every airline aims to have a system of seniority.

As a joke let's get all the major unions together to suggest dropping seniority and allowing direct entry it would be mayhem applications would fly out everywhere the airlines and training depts would 5hit themselves.

Crews may not leave but might not the fear that they could drive $$$ up?

Both systems have merits in theory. In practice, they lead to very different airlines. Luckily, we have the option of which type of airline we want to work for. On the non seniority side we have Ryanair and Easyjet. On the seniority side we have BA and Virgin.

Your choice!

Do Ryanair and Easyjet take DECs? Just out of interest because Virgin Blue (Australia) and Jetsatar don't.

But do pilots have a choice anymore? Airlines that hire MPL/Cadets get applications because of the job and less so the pay, but once they have enough experience they are now in a seniority airline and can't leave because of the paycut at the bottom of the other airlines seniority list.

I'd be interested to know where BAs recent -400 DE F/Os came from.

Union membership is fine as long as long as it not compulsory to join and you have level headed commonsense people running it. Because of the nature of trade unionism, historically it is the loud-mouth heavyweights that get to the top of the union executive and the rot starts from there.

The Australian Pilots's strike of 1989 is an example of this. 1500 pilots were given bad advice by the highly militant union heavies and lost their jobs for good. The problem in Australia at the time was it was compulsory to join the pilots union otherwise no job. Competely illegal of course but the government was also cowed by the militants and looked the other way. Union representation might get you better pay and conditions initially but that's not much good when your job is later lost because of union militancy..

Nikle. : In short. many airlines still do take DEC's, just look around... maybe not the ones YOU wish for do it but you can't be choosy, until you have considerable experience/flying hours backing you.

Companies kill internal morale by doing so and in turn distance themselves further from their key workforce. It is also a very poor reflection on that airline's management, for failure of planning future training and neglect of forward outlook... ie their finger isn't on the pulse! That's their job!

In the meantime, enjoy what's out there as jobs are on the move again!

A flawed argument. If they are that bad they won't pass a command course either.

The argument that a 10,000 pilot shouldn't be placed behind a 250 hour pilot is also flawed. When selecting a pilot for command they have to be qualified with the correct number of hours, so the 10,000 pilot will win by several years, but it would be quite wrong to put a 10,000 new joiner into the seniority list ahead of FOs who are qualified and waiting, meritocracy counts for nothing if we are all, as we are supposed to be, of the required standard. One instructors idea of an 'ace' will be another instructors 'average at best'.

Interesting how these threads continue to emerge from the yet to be promoted!
"Seniority list should be abolished", "Captains should not be called captain", "Captains can't tell me how to fly", "I have to tell captains how to fly" and so it goes, the list must be quite long!

Remember, it is a Pride of Lions, a Flock of Sheep and a Moan of First Officers.;)

I thought it was a whinge of first officers?

Actually, I think it's "A whinge of Pilots"

I'm in the left seat and I still catch myself complaining about rosters, back of the clock flying, no bid system etc,etc.

See, we're all a bunch of complainers, really. Only difference is, we get paid less to complain now than we ever did... Oh wait, I'm doing it again...

All this thread proves is that Seniority, like Democracy, is the 'least worst system'.

a pilot complaining about rosters?! surely not?!

perhaps we can have a referednum for the "alternative seniority system" whereby everyone gets screwed apart from some third rate protest group of pilots, whom for arguments sake we will call the LIBerty DEManders :E

Oh really does it, So all the ryanair lot have just had a huge payrise have they because 300 odd pilots have left?!

Your post is so wrong its shocking.

Seniority is the best system, it's there for all to see. End of.

What about them?

Hedeki Tojo, shouldnt you be happy, they're probably hiring and you can finally get that jet job, as you said the 737s won't fly themselves!