Ryanair/qatar airways
 

Hi guys,

Got today a question from a wannabe ofwhich i, to be honest, did not know the answer.

If you compare ryanair and qatar airways what would be the best company to work for? Moneywise and working wise.

Someone knows or has an idea?

Well with Qatar you will be a SO for at least 2 years, that means cruise pilots so I guess you can't log any hrs plus you are not allowed to land or take off. I can imagine it can get pretty boring at times. Plus the Salary as SO with Qatar will be less than what a RYR FO makes. Living in the Middle east on a low salary is also not the nicest thing, prices are way up there almost double as compared to countries in southern europe... I know people who lived there and they all said the climate and lifestyle sucks if you are not super rich down there... The main advantage with Qatar though is that you do not have to pay for the typerating plus extras, which is a biggie though...
It's actually not an easy decision...
But you can considder yourself as pretty lucky if you are in the position to have these options...

Regarding previous post:
You will not be SO for 2 years, maximum 18months, more like 14 months, but can be less than a year from when you start, all depends how fast the training is and which fleet you're on...
Salary less than RYR... Not too sure about that, don't think so... you need to take into account that what you get as salary is money in your pocket, you don't pay rent, utilities, or tax... at the end, even on SO salary, i think you'll be on more than FO ryr, once your on FO Qatar, salary does jump up considerably..

Living out in Qatar, if you're open minded and are proactive, there are things to do and life can be pretty good, all depends on you.. Very easy to sit in your apartment in the Middle-East and say liife S*** or boring

Can I know what are the prerequisites to get in Qatar Airways' cadet program? Is it similat to the Ryanair's ones?

It may interest me, but I won't start my training until mid-2012, which means I won't be qualified to work flying until at least mid-2013.

EDIT
I have looked for the Qatar Airways' cadet program, but found nothing on their careers website. Is this program still opened?

I found only this

Second Officers at Qatar Airways are actually not cruise pilots.
They perform the same duties as first officers.
It is just the first few sectors when they are only monitoring the flight.

At least this was the case a few years ago.

SO's are only that until they've finished their line training sectors (it's a lot of sectors, either 120 or 140 off the top of my head). Takes about 6 months on the A320 and over a year if you get on the widebody.

SO's are not cruise pilots. They are occupying the RHS from day 1. SO only refers to the restriction of sectors / having to fly with a line trainer.

Can't comment on the SO wage (think it's about 10 or 12K QR plus sector pay?). As a widebody FO I was clearing about 26 to 27 thousand Qatari Riyal in the hand every month, plus free accommodation provided. No tax of course. I think if you compare it on a cash-in-hand after-tax basis, you'll find that's more than most RYR captains make, let alone FO's. Especially considering you're not paying rent and considering all the stealth taxes in UK / Europe like council tax, VAT, TV licence, fuel tax (used to spend 3 or 4 hundred quid a month just filling up my car in Britain, it's virtually free in Qatar of course).

The down side is that the airline culture is brutal and fear driven, one mistake and you're out, trash talk the company to the wrong person and then find you've been reported and you're out, forget to wear your hat on the walk round and you're out, get caught with a cabin crew girlfriend and you're out. Etc etc etc.

The training is generally of a very low standard and it's also fear driven with very little positive feedback or encouragement, parrot fashion regurgitation of the ops manual is encouraged, using your brain to think laterally and solve problems is not. Get used to saying "yes captain I see captain" a lot, even when the guy is an ignorant third world buffoon, they can make your life hell if you disagree with them. RYR would be streets ahead in terms of training standards and actually becoming a "good" jet pilot after a couple years on the job.

Other big downside is the town itself, it's a completely desolate sh!t hole with nothing to do except hang out in the malls, or drink in a soulless and stupendously overpriced 5 star hotel bar where guys outnumber girls 10 to 1. It's not so bad if you're single and a gym rat or prone to other solitary pastimes, but think very very hard if you have a family.

As an expat cadet you'll 99% likely go on the A320 and that's another whole can of worms with regard to rostering and fatigue, consecutive night turnrounds to the subcontinent and min rest in Doha, go read the threads in ME forum because the guys there tell it like it is better than I can, it's a big and very serious issue in terms of safety as well as lifestyle.

As a wannabe you'd have to take the QR job over RYR if you got it, just because you don't have to splash the big cash for the rating. TBH they're both stepping stone jobs though, bend over and squeal for 2 or 3 years and then try to get in somewhere decent with a sustainable lifestyle :hmm:

Thank you Luke for your interesting post!
Just one question: how many hours of flying time did you have when you applied for Qatar Airways? Were you SO?

About 5000 hours TT / 1500 on A320 when I joined, they gave me straight onto the A330 which was nice :)

Yeah forgot to mention.. SO is a Middle East way of saying Junior First Officer... after you line check you go to FO title + benefit/salary...

As mentioned, living out here and how much you enjoy it or not depends on you... There are many things to do out here if you go and find them, for example in between flying i play rugby, ice-hockey and 5-aside... trips to the desserts for some sand dunning and bbqs also a favourite and much more... all depends on how proactive you are and willing to mix with others to find things to... we're all different...

No info on the site regarding SO, fast track will not apply if you are Abinitio, I was recommended from my FTO, best to contact the airline directly for SO info...

I have a family and a sceptical significant other. For those who apply and are called to assessment, do you find yourself in Doha with the chance to gte a feel for the place?

G

Say again? How does that work?

Reserved for management maybe?

How the hell can you be fired if you have a cc as girlfriend???:eek:

Already a reason not to join this company.

I never said it was a written "rule" spamcan, neither did I make it up. There was no "rule" about Evian when that captain got fired either. They made it retrospectively.

To be fair, in 90% of cases they don't fire the pilot they fire the girl - and put her on the immigration blacklist for next couple of years so she can't return to country and see her boyfriend - yes I do personally know one couple where that's exactly what happened.

Yes it's perfectly possible to maintain a relationship as long as you're discreet and careful about things like putting pics of yourself together on face book, sharing taxis together. But the real question is why should you have to put up with the constant being careful and looking over your shoulder and fearing for your job, when there's plenty of good jobs elsewhere where they treat you like grown ups?

If anyone wants any further insight into the weird and wonderful world of QR's "rules" regarding interpersonal relationships, go search on the ME threads for the strange story from a couple years ago, of a very nice A320 captain who was humiliated and terminated via "chop ride" on direct orders of the CEO, because he defied the company rule of requesting permission to marry his G/F.

And then ask yourself if that's the kind of outfit you realllly want to work for :ok:

I would also take some of the negative rumours about Qatar Airways with a large pinch of salt.

Sure, there are a lot of rules...is the UK or Europe any different? Will you get sacked for forgetting your hat once? No. The 'bottle of water' incident is well known out here and there is far more to that story than people will have you know.

Most interviews are conducted in Doha, but not all. It'll be a bit of a whistle-stop-tour, but you will get about a day to look around.

Training is generally far better than it used to be, and still on the up. There is a big backlog though and QR tends to bring guys (and gals) out here, put you in the queue, and then let you enjoy the pool for 6-8 weeks...while being paid!

Sure, the life is very different...but everything is what you make of it, and what your expectations are. I have family out here and they really enjoy it. Just do plenty of research and work out what is important to you before you decide.

Hope that helps.

Have to get permision to open a bank account, have a phone installed, get gas and electric, get married, leave the country, etc etc. Why on earth would anyone with an ounce of sense want to go there, especialy as it now looks like a future war zone!

to get a free type rating on a bus or boeing :rolleyes:

I doubt the type rating can be called free. I expect it's a fairly big bond that efectively keeps you there a long time!

I have to say I've found it to be as spamcandriver says. There are days when what LukeST said applies too although the remarks about the training are well wide of the mark in my experience (that may be partly down to different fleets)

This is a place I'd never have contemplated coming to myself but needs must and it was the best offer at the time and still remains so. The other 2 airlines I had interviews at have both since gone out of business.

As to whether to choose this over ryanair for a cadet/SO programme - that's a balance. I accept that the picture of how you're treated in ryanair probably doesn't entirely match reality but I suspect that you'll be better treated in Qatar Airways by a long way.

Spanner

I dont know about the deal with jerez. For a DEFO it's 3 years which is not too bad in this industry :(

It is if you don't likeit and need to come home. what I am getting at is it's one thing signing up for a training bond for a known quantity, and another for something that isn't! How much is it if you want out?

have'nt you been watching the news lately?

BO,

It seems that you're offerning advice on something that you don't even understand. I guess you have good intentions, and it's good for people to be cautious. Misinforming people, however is not a good thing.

Back to the original point of the thread - Pay for a TR at Ryr or be a second officer at QR. I can't offer much information about Ryanair (so I won't try - note that, BO) but I have been through the SO program at QR so I have a bit of knowledge on that.

Yes the training takes a long time, the number of sectors as a second officer (and therefore on lower pay) is a lot higher than at Ryanair. However, at QR you will be paid from day 1 (I had already been paid half the cost of a 73 TR before I got in an aircraft). And once you start flying on the line (on full FO pay) and gain more experience, you will realise how valuable that training is.

Well, why not try to find out, before you start shouting about it?

For me, I do consider it to be free as I don't plan to leave within 5 years (the bond is longer for a second officer than a first). Even if you left Ryanair you couldn't leave behind your loan repayments, or the investment you'd made.
I can't remember of the top of my head but I think it's about 30,000 or 50,000 USD. This reduces as you complete the time on the line and would be paid back in monthly installments if you leave.

As long as you have worked some time as an FO you will not pay back the full amount. No interest is added on top as it would be if you took a loan to pay up front for ryanair, and you will be paid from date of joining, even while waiting or doing training.

Yes there are downsides.
The roster can be tough, especially on the 320 fleet but then personally I think that's a good thing while you're young and gaining experience and I don't know how the ryanair roster compares to that (so I won't comment).
The country is different from Europe (obviously) and people who are not open minded to that will find life difficult. It can be difficult for a young person to move across the world away from their family but that's down to the individual.

Erm... yes, I have. But bearing in mind we're talking about Qatar, and not Bahrain or Egypt or Libya (which if you aren't aware are different countries and in some cases different continents!) I feel no unneccessary concern. I certainly feel safer in Doha, than I do in London despite growing up in England. No, I'm not naive, that's my personal feeling.

Bottom line - I'm happy in Doha, I have friends who are happy there (and some who aren't). I got a job with no costs upfront and was paid from day one at a time when others are still unemployed. I enjoy my job, and I enjoy my career prospects.

As for the cabin crew thing, if that's what you care about (rather than having a job, earning money, flying!) then just put your uniform on and walk around the airport - what do you even need an aircraft for?
As has been said, discretion is key. Certain amounts of freedom are extended to westerners and non-muslims, some don't even notice the restrictions - but it is a muslim country, so have the intelligence and respect to not take the p*ss. Do what you want, but don't shout about it.

Sorry this was so long, I hope people who are generally interested will find a useful point of view. I don't usually reply, but people forcing uninformed rubbish and misleading others annoys me.

QR
 

1 cap,

Don't apologise for the length of your thread, it was very informative. Balls Out all points taken into consideration, I think your still being breast fed and haven't taken out a map in quite a long time.
The ME is not for everyone. If you want to PM me feel free. I have some experience in the decision your making.

No matter what I wish you all the best,

Listen Guys, I am not offering any advice other than to think carefuly before moving thousands of miles and sign up to a big bond, to live and work in a culture you know nothing about, and may not like. I certainly am not forcing missinformed rubbish on anyone! Fortunately I have never had the missfortune to need or have to pay for a type raying at any time in my long carreer, even at FR and have always been paid from day one. Having said that, for me, I would have to be desperate before I looked out to the sand pit. I would probably pay for a type rating to work nearer home myself.
With regards to being breast fed, I have flown for many major airlines and would say there is no where you are less breast fed than at FR.
10 thousand US troops eh, without a UN resolution they would stand back and watch the fireworks mate and defend no one except themselves and US citizens. Isn't there a big US base in Egypt too?

Ballsout buy an atlas and read a newspaper. Doha is not now and never was a war zone. Its not even close to one!

I'm not the one that needs to read the papers. the whole of the Muslim Arab world is looking like it may well be heading towards political melt down, regardless of it's geographic location. Just a matter of time. In my opinion of course!

You could be a Daily Mail journalist BALLSOUT. Just like how the UK is in meltdown due to paedophile, benefit swindling, immigrants who killed Diana.

If you ignore the British gunboat diplomacy in 1821 and 1841 when it was bombarded. But as the Royal Navy is now somewhat smaller, probably no chance of a recurrence.

Now don't get me started on those paedophiles or swindling imigrants, and of course we all know who killed Diana!

The bloody Irish did!:8

Ballsout is not afraid to show the world just how stupid he is!

I'm not the one who needs to resort to insults. That realy would be stupid wouldn't it!

It's only an insult if it's not true, so you don't get an apology. Like I said before STUPID. Should have listened at school and learned where Qatar is before blabbering on here. Here's a tip, stop posting on this thread you're embarrassing yourself and your profession

It was in the middle east when I went to school, where is it now then, have they moved it?

Ballsout,
A little neck retraction would be good.
The revelation that you are stuck in Poxair speaks volumes in itself!

Ballsout, you're only embarrassing yourself here with your lack of knowledge.

The Qatari people are the most spoilt lazy smug race in the world, they are collectively incapable of doing anything other than texting each other on their blackberries, admiring their mullet cuts and aviator shades in shopping mall mirrors, and driving Lexus Landcruisers up and down the Salwa road at mach nine speeds. Every other job in the country is done by imported wage slaves. They're certainly not interested in starting a revolution unless they got a few thousand Bangladeshi labourers to do it for them.

And 1cap - good post and a good attitude, I'm glad it's working for you. I had to get out of there for the sake of my family and my sanity, but seriously if anyone's a position to get a cadetship out of them you'd have to grab it with both hands

So you would have us all believe that if it hits the fan out there in the middle east, everyone will have to make a run towards qatar where they will be safe. Wake up and smell the coffee!
By the way, I am not stuck at Ryanair, I am there out of choice.

Balls you are not just stupid but an idiot too. The flying time between Cairo and Doha is 3hrs Tripoli to Doha is 6hrs and to go anywhere else in the gulf is approximately another 50mins. Please tell us where in the territory of EK QR or EY is the sh1t going to hit the fan? That's right, NOWHERE! The fact you work willingly for FR speaks volumes of their selection process not to mention their route structure. FR flys to Malta, I suppose that's 1000nm from a war zone in your world.

Now I freely admit that I have not flown in the Gulf for thirty years but when I was based in Bahrain, it was my understanding that the Al Khalifa family in Bahrain (Sheik Isa was the boss man at the time) were the cousins of the rulers in Doha.

I can remember reading that they weren't on great speaking terms but are the two sections of the family no longer related?