Pilot wages VS other jobs
 

Hi all,

I'm a little bit wondering, I read here in another topic that a captain of Ryanair earns 45k pounds a year. A lot of people think it's not enough to be a captain (I don't have any knowledge of other airlines)...
But if I look for example to the salary of an engineer here in Belgium who has done 5 years of college/university they are happy to get 1700€ net a month and a car, which is far less than the captain with RYR. Ok you don't start as a captain, but what does a F/O earn then with ryanair?
Do they pay the engineers not enough here or is it just me that I have the feeling that the 45k pounds with ryanair (or take any other airline) is a lot of money?
I always read here that wannabe's should get an other job and earn more, but if I see those wages, you'll never- or with a lot of luck- hit the 6000€ a month mark with being an engineer over here....
Greetings

Belgian and Irish/UK taxes might be quite different and services provided by state as well.
I used to be engineer in France, making much less money than as captain now.
But, if I messed up in my engineer job, the company lost one day of computer productivity .
Now, if I mess up, I can kill up to 189 pax + 6 crew + 1 tool worth around 60 millions $ !

That's quite a huge difference that can justify a payrise in my opinion.

Just to put this into perspective, a binman (refuse collector or recycling coordinator...) in Brum takes home about £45k per annum.

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I'm sure there might be a binman or woman out there who might try and justify their wage but it just goes to show that there are idjits happy to put up with getting paid peanuts to be a captain of a 737 (albeit at a basic wage).

The downward spiral continues but if the egyptians can take charge and make sweeping changes maybe it could happen for aircrew...:sad:

45k is cr@p I was watching a TV doc the other night with a sofa salesman earning 65k.... Obviously his salary is linked to his performance and if he doesn't sell his earning fall but he doesn't have the initial investment that pilots have these days plus responsibility in his job is low. On the flip side the salesman would probably have to work more days a year, none of which would be at stupid o'clock. Therefore it's hard to compare but this job bears a lot of responsibility much like a doctor etc therefore you would expect pay grades in line with those professions. Think it was on BA thread that one guy worked out that from his flights per year and average loads the cost per head was just 40 pence... But that's BA

As an FO in FR take home after stupid Irish tax and greedy accountants is pretty much 3500 a month but you only work 10.5 months if you're lucky.

What do you mean by other jobs? Is it other jobs in aviation or the other non aviation jobs?

As far as aviation jobs here in India are concerned, we pilots are the highest paid, especially when you reach the level of a captain on a jet. But there are many jobs out here especially with IT industry if you have like 5 years of experience in a well reputed company then you can easily make more than a pilot.

Like most of you are aware T&C are on a great decline for the cockpit crews, sadly.

I mean other jobs in general, lik an engineer, nurse, doctor and ect, people who went to university or college...

It depends how intelligent, enterprising and educated you are.

Any dullard can rock up to a flight school, buy an ATPL, by and large find a job (at least in a good recuiting climate), and by and large, get upgraded when their time comes. So for them, the pay is good compared to labouring, or low grade office work (although guys who dig the road can earn £60k+, esp if they do overtime. No capital outlay required either. No jet lag, or being away from their families for days on end)

For anyone with anything between their ears, aviation is an exceptionally poor career, IMHO. 40 years of being treated as a unit of labour, nothing more - often less. Very little scope for performance related career advancement - you get paid what it says on your payscale, whether you are an conscientious ace, or a borderline slacker.

In the good old days a BOAC Captain (flying his Imperial Seaplane on a 2 week trip to South Africa) would have a salary and social cache roughly comparable to a High Court Judge .... now we are comparing our trade to salesmen and tube drivers ... where did it go wrong ??
It is basically true that any of us are paid a salary proportional to how easy we are to replace .... that is capitalism. In the extreme the "irreplaceable" football striker is paid a fortune, and the manual/ unskilled labourer a lot less. In between there lies all of us ....
Our T&C's will only improve when the drought happens .... and there are too many jobs for too few experienced pilots ... C'est la vie ..

For anyone with anything between their ears, aviation is an exceptionally poor career,

absolutely right !! i,m so pleased that somebody as actually said what we all think and know .

Everybody quotes time and time and time again " Safety is our prime importance , we are dedicated to safety " We have all heard it so many times
Very sadly the people that say that are the same people that have directly led to the erosion of safety in our industry ....which also leads to what the general public think of our so called "profession "................. Glorified bus drivers over payed because its an easy job now ...the airplane does everything for you


very very sad .....when we people are prepared to pay more for a big mac than they are for a ticket ,and if they do pay more most peoplr think they have been had

time to get out and prob get the bus !!!

Even with things as **** as they are now, there will always be "that guy" who compares it to X job, and says, wait a sec. that ain't so bad! While completely ignoring all other pertinent facts.... and so things continue to go farther South.

I've been in this field only a few years, and in that time have seen and heard more then enough to never encourage or suggest to anybody that entering this profession is a good idea. Far too little reward, for what you put into it. That includes self-sacrifice as well as money. Unless you are one of the lucky few that are responsible for propagating the myth of the glorious airline life.

For me, anyone earning £45K doing a job they love is extremely lucky. Perhaps some of you in the airline business went into it with unrealistic expectations?

I personally have a disability that prevented me from pursuing my dream of becoming a pilot, so it does kind of grate on me a little when I see people who are earning what a great many of us would consider megabucks, complain about the "paltry" amounts they are getting. You are lucky you can even do it in the first place. Granted, you put in a lot of time and investment, but the opportunity was there and nobody made you do it.

Do people really expect us to believe that the binmen who empty our wheelie-bins are on £45K? Yeah right!

I think some people just need to accept that the golden era of airlines is well and truly over.

I am sure doctors or lawyers have in an interest in their jobs, don't know why the ' you get to do a job you like' always gets pulled out when it comes to pilots

The amount we are paid depends on supply and demand. When supply exceeds demand, the price falls. This is what has happened. But if the balance swings the other way, the price will rocket as the supply (for experienced captains) has an inbuilt lag of about five years. To make it attractive for an experienced captain to either remain with or to join your organisation, you'll have to pay the going rate - and maybe a sweetener on the top.

Or there again, you could take the cheap captains. The ones who are often written about (I can think of a few) in various reports, the ones with interesting training records which are shredded and strewn along the M6, the ones who miss-spell their names and so on. Unfortunately, for too many passengers, their abilities are far too often discussed on this site. But no matter what, I can not see the return of the "...salary and social cache roughly comparable to a High Court Judge" which it certainly was during the 50's and 60's. But any company employing "dodgy" captains will have to watch out as the calls from the lawyers won't be long coming.

Am I worth more than €45K. You bet. I'm worth at least twice that, maybe three. But I'll tell you for free, if the market rate is five times that, I won't work for less! And no doubt neither will a lot of my peers. This will be the true price of "Low Cost."

PM

Well, I've spent a few years in the cockpit, but now I've moved into a different side of the business.

I was asked if I'd like to go back into flying fulltime, but when I thought about it, I simply couldn't afford the pay-cut. A slightly mad situation really, but flying really isn't the career it once was.

Are RYR skippers actually on £45K though? I thought it was significantly higher than that. If it isn't, then which idiot signed a contract for that?

That's one of the daftest posts I've ever read on here for so many reasons that I'm not even going to bother going into it.

Let me guess, another frustrated wannabe pilot...

I tell you what, once you've been a pilot for 10 years, then you can tell me if you still find it a job that you'd do simply for the passion rather than for a decent salary.

It helps to have passion for any job, but that doesn't stop them being JOBS.

If you go into flying with your eyes blinkered to reality, then you are a fool. Any career has it's good days and bad, but at the end of it all, after a couple of years, you lose the misty eyed outlook of someone looking in from the outside and realise what the job actually entails.

If you are happy to be a Captain on a jet for £45K a year (I'm fairly certain even RYR don't pay that little) then you are a total and utter eejit, who should be drummed out of the profession for being a dangerous lunatic who shouldn't be in charge of a blunt pencil let alone a mulit-million pound aluminium tube moving at 500mph 6 miles above the ground.

So are we seriously suggesting that an MP is worth more £ than an airline pilot?

I don't like comparing any other job when it comes to pay to try and say which one is "worth" more.

It doesn't work like that in reality. Especially not when trying to compare two jobs as different as an MP and a pilot.

T&Cs have degraded for years where as in politics MPs have got fatter. I'm not saying they don't have responsibility as they do, its just their responsibility is diluted and often shared amoung their peers. Airline pilots do not have this luxury all we have is the trust and the competence of they guy/gal sat next to us and we are responsible for the safety of everyone on board. The amount of time an average jet pilot spends at 37000ft is increasing along with all those pressure changes as we climb and descend... All of which must not be advantageous to the physiology of the human body.

Dangerous responsible jobs should come with a price that reflects this but unfortunately we are all selling ourselves short... and until there is a collective movement across the whole industry this will not change.

Just my 2cents

I think the point these days is missed - one or two of the problems these days is that due to increased aircraft reliability, improved avionics etc. etc., is that on an average day most pilots can fly aircraft without too much difficulty....this in turn is seen by company bean counters as meaning the job is no longer as "hard" as maybe it used to be, and use this coupled with many individuals desire to become a commercial pilot, in order to reduce costs in the company, boost profitability and thus on meeting targets, line their own pockets at someone elses expense (okay, maybe that is a little simplistic but the general idea is there).

Now, one thing that is totally forgotten - as a crew on the flight deck of whatever aircraft you fly, regardless of aircraft age, equipment and everything else - YOU are RESPONSIBLE for the safety and legality of that aircraft (well, certainly as a Captain) - and that my friends is a hell of a thing and should be very much in mind when accepting an awful salary with crappy T & C - I think that these days that MAY be one of the reasons companies like Ryanair get away with awful deals, because the above isn't fully appreciated. Oh, you can bet when and if the **** hits the fan, the cheapskates will be looking VERY closely at crew error as this usually represents the weakest link in getting out of regulatory/financial penalty. That risk we bear as a crew SHOULD be mitigated by decent T & C - after all, lose your health, licence or any number of other things, and it's goodbye career - won't happen to "Mr Beancounter" if his pen breaks, or he messes up a monthly report now will it ?

Food for thought ? I'd hope so, but let's see

I left the profession nearly three years ago. I was on about 40K as a FO.

I don't miss the backstabbing "comrades", crewing nightmares, egotistical commanders, fatigue, early mornings, late nights, lack of sleep, crap food... oh I could go on but I really don't want to sound bitter.

I do miss the points I used to get on my Marriott Rewards card though...

Says it all really.

Very good point, OutsideCAS

GASP!

Yeah whatever...

I suggest those of you who are sick of it get out or shut up! Name me another oh so fantastic career that you will never tire of or complain about?


Go on then!

Errrrrrr. That's my point...

Flying is no different from any other profession. It can be good or bad. The old nonsense that "you should do it for free because it's flying" is what I have a problem with.

Just because flying is fantastic, doesn't mean that you should trade salary with a tube driver.

How can you be happy doing a job where you get paid half what other people doing the same job get in the industry?

I know I couldn't. Everytime I saw my pay packet I'd know I was getting diddled and that will have an effect.

If you are happy getting paid less than half what I get for doing a job within the same industry, then sorry, but you are an eejit.

No, its not the seniority system thats distorting the pilot job market, though I do agree that the market is broken and rigged against us at the moment. In the left hand seat It's the fact that you have to either already have or purchase a type rating. in the rhs having commercial aviation experience means you're blocked, as only dirt cheap cadets or pay to fly vermin who make the airline a fortune from the training are of interest.

I met one of our new Flexi Crew FOs in an orange crew rest room last week. He'd had his line check two months earlier. Now I don't know about you, but I spent at least the first six months post initial line check with a big grin on my face every time I went flying. But not this guy. He ended our chat with "if I knew what I know now I would have never become a pilot".

Says it all really...

If an ill-informed member of the public happens to think £45K is pretty good money for flying around all day on airliners, you would do well to represent your profession in a civil way and educate them on the matter. There is absolutely no need to make assumptions, jump down people's throats and insult them. Nobody has asked or is asking you to fly for free out of passion.

I generally don't start telling professionals in a field I know naff all about what they should be happy with being paid.

I suggest you do the same.

By all means ask questions to increase your understanding, but the second you start to tell people that they are getting paid "well" in a job that you know nothing about, then expect to get a reaction.

Would you like it if I told you that I think you should be happy getting paid £3.20 and a packet of peanuts for your job, without knowing anything about it?

I doubt it.

You misunderstand me. I am pointing out that to a lot of people £45K is a lot of money and they would consider themselves lucky to earn anything like that.

I am not telling YOU that YOU should be happy with that.

No need to try and belittle others.

Well £45k IS a good salary when compared to the national average. It's what I get (or thereabouts) for being a Personnel Manager for a very large UK retailer.

IMHO it's nowhere near enough to pay for someone with the expertise to keep a £multi-million aircraft and hundreds of people safe from harm. :=

You may be interested (or not) to know that the store manager of a very large supermarket (think big white sheds with red and blue titles) can earn a six-figure salary as well a great pension and share options.

Not as exciting as flying a jet I'm sure :}

Why should we care what others think about pilot salaries? I don't care how much you get paid and even if I did, I know that my opinion is worthless, so I keep schtum.

The vast majority of the world population would be stunned if they earnt even as much as minimum wage in the UK, let alone £45K. However, I'm not sure how that's relevant to this discussion in the same way that you pointing out that other people in the UK think pilots get paid vast sums, when in reality £45K is not much for an experienced professional in any field. IT, Law and even some engineering professions (though engineers are generally almost criminally underpaid in the UK) get salaries often well above £45K.

It's impossible to draw meaningful comparisons between different professions when it comes to salaries really. Especially if you don't know anything about that particular field anyway.

Ex wife, regional manager well known supermarket, basic was over 70K plus a nice BMW plus massive staff discount and bonus. Moved to head office, now earns 100K plus. I guess the responsibilty for potentially poisoning half the country justifies the large salary! Not bitter at all:=

Human curiosity. Plus the topic title is "Pilot wages VS other jobs". Why are you posting if you don't care?

Look, despite what you think of me as a mere civilian I am not completely stupid. I wasn't born yesterday. I am aware that pilot wage amounts were decided many years ago by people far more experienced and intelligent than me. And then there is supply and demand to factor in.

But if Ryanair are anything to go by...

Within my circle of non-aviation friends and family, all except one earn at least twice as much as I do as a 757 FO. One earns just a little bit more than me; but he's only 22! (I'm 42)

Guys/Gals - I don't think that anyone would genuinely deny the fact that £45k is a lot of money BUT when talking about salary in the world of Flight Crew, a captain's salary of £45k is just simply wrong !

Think about it - I appreciate that the national average salary may well be £26k or whatever, but remember - in MOST, NOT ALL, there is no requirement to initially invest sums ranging from £40k to £100k (estimate) in order to get the basic right to fly commercially. Therefore, as I said earlier, with the fact as Flight Crew we could end up unemployed through health, accident etc., the salary should reflect this fact. It would pay management at companies like RYR and EZY etc. to remember that whilst they use various facts like oversupply of cadets, global recession and alike to fuel and justify their cost-cutting tactics, as a largely professional bunch that "that gets the job done", when things improve (and they will) it's going to get mighty difficult to crew those empty birds sat rotting on the apron - don't see the profitability in that now ! In essence, they need to look at the long-term effects of what they're doing NOW and redress the balance.

As for all these cadets coming through paying vast sums to LoCo's - are you really furthering your careers ?? Or are you setting up a short-term gain for a long-term loss ?? your choice of course, and passengers will happily fly with you subsidising their ticket cost, and management relish the thought of your coffers entering the company accounts and furnish ever present large performance bonuses.

you are soooooooooooo right
!!!!!!!

I work in the paper industry.We now recycle old newspapers and magazines to produce fresh clean newsprint.Some of the senior ops earn well in excess of £45K.I am not at the top of my grade,but earn well in of excess of £35K.Now you might say big deal.Add to this our shift rota.We work 4 on 6 off. We also get a 10 day break in the spring and autumn plus a 18 day break in the summer.If you add it all up it means we are only on site for 4 months of the year.It all sounds fantastic but I would give it all up to live the dream.Age is the problem.

This gets my vote for the best post/thought in a long long time!
 

This thought flew off the page at me.

previous job involved driving cargoships around the world about 9 months a year. i received about 1700 nett per month to do the job. at night youre left alone in the wheelhouse after a 10h+ shift loading the cargo so its up to you to keep your eyes open and not to hit anything, potential to kill the crew or destroy serveral millions of ship and cargo if yould fail to do so.

got into flying to spend more time with family and friends. social life improved tremendously, i work less then half the hours i used to and get more then twice the money. and this is on a "****ty" F/O brookfield contract at RYR :hmm:

the days of being pampered in aviation are over, but in reality its a fairly well paid job, even if you consider the initial "investment". 900 hours plus some time to do preflight stuff is not even considered a full time job in many EU countries.

There is a lot to say about RYR, but you got to love 5/4 rosters!

adios!

My two cents (one actually).

A few days ago, the reason that pilots expect to be paid a respectable salary, above the average, were made extremely clear by tragic events very close to home for many of us.

As a pilot, I feel that no other explanation is needed as to why I expect to be well paid and to therefore be as free of monetary stresses as is possible. Our job carries enough risks and sacrifices to warrant our monetary demands, within reason, as we are expected to be on top of our game every minute that we are in work. Failure to be can lead to tragic consequences (I am not implying any professional neglect on the crew of BPS 7100).

Similar responsibilities are difficult to find in other jobs and careers and as such it is difficult to find a point of reference in other sectors of industry. But by way of example, I flew a double a few days ago and flew a total of 450 passengers to and from UK cities in less than 12 hours. If full, the aeroplane could have carried closer to 700 passengers over the 4 sectors. That is a lot of responsibility for 2 people irrelevant of age or experience.

Not many people earning the national average (who tend to sit in the back and assume that it'll just be another boring flight) could even be made to understand this point. We, as flight crews, engineers and Air traffic Controllers are jointly and primarily responsible for make flying a boring mode of transport.