Ryanair Command or go for a play around the world as an F/O?
 

Just wondering what the thoughts are, I have the hours for command now and am looking to start the process soon enough, I do want to go see some of the world for a bit as currently single with no kids and nothing tying me down at all

Do I get the command and a year in the left seat then look about or do I just say sod it and apply to a few places and have a play in the world for a bit before it all gets serious? where do I come back to after is my worry more than anything, not that I am based at home at the moment mind!

If I were you, I would grab a command, put some hours under the belt and then go to see the world. If you have the chance try to enter the contract world as a Captain. I have some collegues that left to see the world on their early twenties as F/O and then returned for the same company still as F/O while the rest of us get upgraded. My point is: do not expect an upgrade anytime soon out there. Anyway that's your decision. :ok:

Much more marketable with at least 1000 of command time. Then you can play as a first officer and or captain.

No command, then you are type casted as a firist office until you have the opportunity to upgrade.

As they say... don't put off til tomorrow what you should do today.

go for the $$, the upgrade that is.:cool:

Travel - you are only 33.

To be marketable for the contract world (ie the contracts worth doing) you need at least 2000 hours in command - thats a little bit longer in FR - can you hack it?

There is a wide world out there - if you stay in FR you will have a command and most likely still not live at home for the foreseeable. Yes command is good - but in FR .. tricky one. If you travel then who knows .. you only live once etc etc .. go for it.

Deal or No Deal ... The choice is yours ... :confused:

Take the command as a previous poster pointed out and go and put 1000 hours in a logbook from the left hand seat.

You just don't know when the next upgrade will come around.

Some of the companies you may contemplate working for on your world tour may be more comfortable to operate in from the LHS :ooh:

Until you've been a Captain you are just a First Officer. Companies much prefer proven command capability and it widens your options.

I got my command late last year and would advise you to go for it. You'll get to see a different part of Europe for sure ;0) and with the extra cash you can see as much of the world as you like! After a few years command experience you can look further afield and will have more options.

Just my opinion. Whatever you decide, best of luck!

Jockey,
with respect, you sound like a new upgrade who actually had little or no choice been sent where u were sent...and at the same time you are trying to make the best of a bad situation.... not a bad attitude at all, but without knowing your personal situation, doesnt sound like you have major committments back home, family kids schooling etc.

Try having a home somewhere, and without any concern for your welfare, once you pass the command course, PB and DR give you a list of three bases (if you are lucky), and you shipped off, Personally, i don't know why they bother asking where one would like to be based....its a scam

Yup, everyone free to their opinion, but command in this company aint all its cracked up to be, jumping ship could equally be a more sensible move, if anything you will gain more control.... the RYR roster WILL change to 5 / 3 and if it takes you 3 flights to get back home to see family, well whats the point ???? Also , assuming as Captain you will be expected to sign up to this 3 man company scam, jumping ship at least you know you are not involved in tax evasion...

HighLow

Many people dont realise the **** deal the BRK contract really is,
they want to earn a bit of cash fast..
so when u retire what happens???? believe me, better opportunities out there and if my circumstance was different, I'd had jumped ship along time ago. New Upgrades are selling themselves short with these muppets!!

Zero,

I am in exactly the same position as you but I've made the decision to jump ship!

I don't know how old you are but for me I'm hoping to have another 38years in this job and I'm sure another command will come around in that time! I would prefer to bide my time and get my command with a career airline in 7-9 years time, what's the rush?
As highlow said, the contract as a cpt you will be on will be 4/3 and for only marginally more money than the FO one (along with all of the extra responsibility and hassle!)!

Fortunately I have a base captain who I can talk to and he said that there would be no way I would get back into FR if I changed my mind mind in a couple of years! Keep in mind that the only way to get back would be by getting command in your chosen company and returning as a DEC!

So the choice is stick with the s**t you know (and the future stuff you don't know about!) or risk it somewhere else with the knowledge there's pretty much no turning back once the decision is made!

All the best!

Same situation
 

I would add my opinion:

when the market seems full of opportunities lots of people feels its safe to jump ship and i did so in 2008, before the crisis hit us, i have got a job in a nice career oriented operator and based in my home place, nice stable roster, long term possibilities, quick upgrade chances.
And at that time, PB was getting people back.

Guess what? crisis came around, no upgrade, company is letting people go and i am now since 2 years on the market and it is now the 3rd airline i change as a FO, always begging for something while other collegues are captains with old contracts in FR, no BRK.

I suggest 2 options: serious career airline like BA, Virgin, LH, AF or stick to FR, command and then go to play contractor as captain.

A captain today told me "do not rush to command if all u want is to leave and go play contractor, because i am now 50 and still beg around for some money and ticket home on days off, if you can find a career arline and relax there until your turn comes"

This is my 2 cents, i have been there, and it has bit me hard!

It may be worth passing up the command for a "career" airline that you really want to work for and will stay at long term. Otherwise take the upgrade, get 1500 - 2000 hours in the left seat and then look around.

One of the employment agencies told me "Contracting is for Captains". Some airlines will never upgrade expats and you may be replaced at any time by a local f/o straight from training, experienced skippers are much harder to replace.

Financially you will be on 50 - 100% more money which is considerable when multiplied by a number of years. Also some companies don't treat the f/os too well.

Also you are much more employable as you can work in either seat.

A serious global crisis may delay your opportunity for upgrade for years if you turn this down.

I think you guys are reading this all wrong, the guy is not looking to ditch FR for another job. He is looking to ditch FR and go backpacking around the world!!!!!

Grab the command and put in 2000 hours with FR. It will greatly improve your chances of moving to another airline on the left seat.

As said before. Either try to get into a legacy and wait 10 years for command or prepare for a life on the move.

No Brainer..!!!
 

Command....Command - and then Command...

Nothing else to add to previous poster's comments supporting this option.

Except:- Read John Milton's "Paradise Lost" -
Quote - "It is better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven" Unquote...

Just a thought..!!

Chheeers and good luck with the decision

Go for "quality of life" first and "standard of living" will follow - it doesn't work the other way round.

Command at FR....are you serious?!
 

Come on... you have been in the company 3/4 years now and you are wondering whether or not to take command. Listen to all those guys in the LHS b**tching and moaning about the company....do you want to be like that in 30 yrs time because you actually found it hard to leave once you were earning 90k (thats an FO's salary at BA after 10yrs!)

I am in exactly the same boat as you and I am not going to go for the command. Life in FR is great as an FO there is no doubt but as soon as you get that extra stripe your done for. Try moving on from FR in a few years down the line...you will be at the bottom of a seniority list and no doubt have to go back to being an FO and by that point your probably going to have more responsibilities mortgage/life/family/friends and at the point it becomes harder to leave.

if you are less than 30 jump ship now and you will have a good career with an airline that values you rather than s**ts on you. There are captains who have been in the company 10yrs plus get treated the same as a DEC with a month in the company. Do you really want that? Personally I want to be appreciated for the work i do and not become a glorified/underpaid bus driver.

At the end of the day its your decision and asking ppruners to make that decision for you isn't going to help. Look how many different mixed messages this thread has created.

Sit down and take some time to think what YOU want out of YOUR career.

U737

HighLow,

As you say you do not know my personal situation so no problem that you guessed incorrectly ;0). I do have a young family and it is gut wrenching to leave them after each period of days off, but for me I made the right decision for the medium/long term. For me, a long stint in the RHS of a legacy carrier was not possible and heading off to the sandpit did not appeal (good luck to those who are going btw), it is as always, horses for courses.

Cheers!
:ok:

Correct Studi, I couldn't agree more! :ok:

zerotohero,

My two cents: don't listen too much to the people encouraging you to go for a command. These are the same people who led you into this dead end street in the first place: low-cost airlines!

Grab the chance to join a quality airline, these chances don't pop up every day, as opposed to DEC contract jobs which are plentyful.

I frequently meet up with ex-EZY colleagues who are now trapped in the LHS; addicted to the money and unable to swallow their pride and take a pay cut to go to the RHS of a quality airline. It takes a lot of discipline to keep telling yourself that you're only staying for 1000 or 2000 hours in the LHS and then leave.

Most can't do it and end up stuck in the LHS and stuck in the merry-go-round of mediocre airlines with mediocre T&C's who take in DEC's until they decide to leave again for the next "less brown" pasture.

Take the command while it is available. Do 1000 hours PIC, then look at your options.
Command on your cv helps a lot later if you need it.

Do NOT get used to the extra pay whilst in LHS. This will enable a better choice of options later on.

Easier said than done but, above all, try to enjoy the job. Once upon a time we all did.

I may be in same position next year.

I agree with silverhawk - and one way I plan on not getting use to LHS pay, is I plan on using the extra money to crank up my type rating loan repayments.

Sounds sensible to me.

Stay where you are and get your command. The aviation world is extremely volatile (especially at the moment) - if you leave without command time you may find it difficult if not impossible to get back in again. In the UK, you will be competing with all the pay-for-a-job newbies (as you know working for Ryanair), so your only options may lie abroad. But - many of those jobs require currency within the last 12 months for licence validation purposes which you might not have so you would be effectively shut out from those jobs. If you are lucky and manage to join a legacy carrier you may never see a command in your career due to lack of growth and many, many pilots ahead of you waiting their turn in the seniority system.

Getting the command first gives you options and protects your future.

Bokkenrijder. I presume you work for a legacy? In that case it's easy for you to comment or gloat. I hope you realise not everybody is in privileged position.

Don't think you can argue with our advice. Unless the guy has an unsigned LH, BA, KLM/FR contract on his desk right now why shouldn't he go for the command.

I think you're misunderstanding what most of us are saying. Of course he should go for the legacy IF he has to possibility. But until that possibility comes around he should go for his command.

1 Get your command where you are and go to a major
2 Go to a major

Whichever comes first

Guys what do we all as pilots & people want in life?
A good reliable income?
The ability to be at home with family as often as possibe?
A company who accepts & respects its staff?
A decent aircraft to fly?
A decent reliable or predictable roster?
Prospects of becoming a Captain/LTC/TRE?
All leading to a decent lifestyle?
People orientated management?
A good atmosphere at work?

So of all those things what do you have in ryanair?
Lets break these down 1 by 1 and see!

A good reliable income? - NO.....NOT as a new Captain!!!! 54,000 euro and 22.78 per SBH sector if permenent, or 120.50/hr as a BRK CP? ... Thats pretty MISERABLE to support a family on for future references and just about enuf to survive with few luxuries in life if single! Add to that that there have been practically no pay rises in 5 yrs in FR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If there has been it has been an insult and nullified by tax! Furthmore ryanair DOES NOT adjust pay in relation to inflation and currency changes recession or not. Currently the Irish governemt are increaseing tax by 7% on average. Ryanair are not increasing / changing pay accordingly!!

The ability to be at home with family as often as possibe?
Not in RYR....You may wait MANY years to get your home base ! How many years and hours in the back or jump seat listening to inaudible, pushy, ear-piercing PAs made my Cabin crew on less than the minimum wage do you have to endure before you can be at your home base?!! If you want to avoid that you have to relocate your family to your new base!!!

A company who accepts & respects its staff?
NOT if hell froze over !! O'Leary, O'Brien, Cawley, Wilson, Osborne, Millar -all the bosses. THEY DONT GIVE A flying-:mad: about pilots, CCs or Engineers - not an iota of a :mad:!! They LOATHE us! Case in point being - Number one cabin crew landing the plane - Beds and blowjobs - telling embraer in Brazil that they would pump billions into a pilotless a/c, giving themselve MASSIVE bonuses and paying 500m to shareholders whilst saying publicly "who else will we give the money to" :oh:

A decent aircraft to fly.. Certainly the 737-800w is a glass cockpit airplane and manageble in crosswinds IF you have decent handling skills, decent anti-icing and in fairness they rarely go with open HILs in ryr! Well proven safety for the LOCOs across the world. So this is a plus. Nice to be a skipper on!

A decent reliable or predictable roster?
Went from 5.2/5.3 to 5.4.5.4 company wide, but now a mixture of 5.4/5.3 and soon probably 5.3 as standard to come company-wide. Predictable? yes, but whats gonna happen? Uncertainty lingers.....if it does come into force will you as a new CP in FR have a choice? NO! Will you be told to F Off if you complain?Hell yes! Increased pressures on the circadian rythms and getting home from your remote European base which you had no choice but to goto!

Prospects of becoming a Captain/LTC/TRE?
Yes there are upgrade opportunities BUT there is now very poor financial reward, particularly compared to other similar and legacy carriers.

A decent lifestyle? in RYR? It depends what combination of the above you achieve. And it seems from my 5 years in this place that unless you are here 8 to 9 years or more AND at your original and home base near family, you are not reaching that decent lifestyle standard. SUch pilots are few in RYR.

People orientated management? . :) not if hell froze over in Ryanair!

A good atmosphere at work?
Never did i expect in my life that i would experience such negativity, anger, frustration, lack of accaptance,and distain towards a closed-door management system! Forget that.

It all points to not accepting a command upgrade here in ryanair....

Its a very hard decision to make!!. You make your bed you lie in it!

For all the years of taking the trashing and abuse and cuts from management and putting up with it do you accept to go thru alll that hard work in the interview, 4 long days in the sim, ground school, a month of line training, AND put up with more as a Captain in ryr, and accept this added pressure RELUCTANTLY and lack of support from management and low pay!

Its a masive culture shock to move to Arabia (Emirates Etihad Qatar GulfAir).

Just throwing my opinion and experiences out there to help the decision making process... :sad:

WOW

Really did not expect that much of a response, def a 50/50 split on thoughts, which is pretty much where my head is at with it all too!

Getting the command and 1000hours in the left seat does sound a good idea as then contracting doors open a lot wider, just as people say would I be happy going back as an F/O after that?
I think in a decent airline doing long haul yes, back to short haul after would be a no for sure cant handle these 4 sector days, long single sectors is what I am craving, I am not looking to settle down in the near future at all but maybe in 10 year time I would, running round the world is what I am after and a commuting contract would be perfect, maybe 21 on 10 off something like that, but as an F/O it might be a struggle is what I am thinking.

Just don't want to hang around in FR for the next 5 years to get enough time to go as DEC to some of the places that require 1000's of hours left seat to take you and really don't want to be a (yes captain F/O) in the far east as thats the impression I get from that part of the world.

But leaving FR would be a move I want to make, currently on a 5/4 old BRK contract and the money is ok, not great but ok, my command would give me €133.50 a block hour and I don't have that illegal company thing which is a big plus, that would def make me jump ship.

Wondering do I just say sod it and take a huge gamble, you never know whats out there until you go look I say.

There's another thing I often think about.

So what happens when you can't get into a legacy coming from cadet school? Everybody blames the cadets for dragging down T&C's. So what are you saying, people aren't allowed to become pilots if there aren't enough places at the legacies to take them in?

What do you want them to do? Not work at all?

Zertothero: Make no mistake. You were hired as a Brookfield FO. If you want the upgrade you'll have to sign a new contract. €135 block is a thing of the past. 115 after deductions is reality. Compare that to the €85 block I was making as an FO. However I'm like you in a way. My BRK contract on the left is running out in 2.5 years. I'm making moves towards different companies and guessing by the time my contract runs out I'll have joined a legacy.

Another thing to think about Zero is this. If you gain your command and do end up putting 1000 hours in a logbook and then decide to head for the hills and try your luck in the Middle East, thats all well and good.

Remember this. If you leave as an FO you wont rejoin FR as an FO. If you leave as a commander and decide after 6 months that you miss watching Corrie at a reasonable hour, you can come back as a commander. Getting commanders into left hand seats has been a constant thorn in the side of Ryanair and if they need you and you have not upset anyone there is very good chance that you could come back.

It just means its a bed to fall back on, instead of a bed of nails if it all goes :mad:s up.

The question you need to ask yourself is, "Do I want to be a Captain or earn Captains money?"

The world is slowly moving east.

An example: Indigo has just ordered 180 Airbus...Do you think India have the man-power to fill these seats?

Biggest order: IndiGo airline picks up 180 jets - The Economic Times

For senior and experienced pilots, the once third world is now the first world for aviation. New planes, new money, new terminals, new infastructure and new attitudes.

Never disrespect experience, but commands are becoming far easier than they they once were. The days of 20 years to the LHS are well and truly over if you are prepared to travel.

zero

You might want to consider Cargolux

Zero, I am in the same dilemma as you, except I am on the old FR permanent FR contract. I have a family too. I just cannot accept the uncertainty of gambling my future on a 5-3 random Euro Base or worse on a salary which won't afford me to pay for living costs away whilst paying for everything at home. It's getting worse every year, I am earning 500 a month less in my basic from 3 years ago (mainly due to the Irish government) FR state they don't know what to do with their cash, well they definitely don't give it to their line staff. I have never known a company which treats it's own people with such distain. Anyway, I have decided not to accept what they are offering for these reasons and more and it certainly wouldn't hurt getting out of the Irish system. It's time to move on. Best of luck in whichever decision you make Zero and to all colleagues in this dilemma.
Remember, this is my situation, yours may be similar but being single with no ties can still make the prospect of 2 years command experience a consideration. I hope I didn't add to the confusion, just adding my 2 cents.
DRM.

I agree...

It has become an absolute necessity they one must leave in order to support ones family (wife/girlfriend/kids) .... It need not be so rotten to the core for pay especially!!

Youre also right in saying that 1000 hrs or 2 yrs LHS in FR is not a bad idea if no wife/kids/another business interests.

The final element is having the fearlessness and courage to make that move to the Middle East where the "harvest is rich but the labourers are few" whether you have significant others or not.

Its not that bad! You ought to try supporting family on a lot less!

So how much do FR Captains make? One post mentions block of E133 per hour - at 800hrs a year that's 106,000 a year, which is not bad whatever the lack of perks...

Funny thing, the main argument against staying in Ryanair for a command seems to be that you get sent somewhere away from your current cozy base and family... But isn't that exactly what our man zero to hero wants? He wants to see the world, he has no family, so he won't be much worse off with a Ryanair command. Right?

The next argument against staying in Ryanair for a command is that he will get addicted to the money. What money may I ask? The euro contract with no lifestyle?

So, the two main arguments against staying in Ryanair to get a command don't really add up. Like many others have said, unless you can start now with KLM/AF/BA/LH/etc., get the command. I'll be gladly proven wrong but I see no other reasonable alternatives for a man in his position.

See!

cheezyjetty ("Back in 2006 I joined EZY via an OAT scheme where I paid £20k for TR and base check, with PERMANENT employment contract at Direct Entry rate.") is one of those typical examples of people who know only the 'blessings' of low-cost airlines and then claim to have all the wisdom in the world by making statements like: "If you want to see the world, do it after 2000 hours PIC. You might end up in the right hand seat once in a while, but you'll be very employable."

What do YOU know about employability after paying 20k for a type rating?!?! The only thing you DO know is choosing for mediocre airlines with mediocre T&C's while paying for the "privilege."

Quite a few years ago, when I flew for that orange outfit I was told "oh Bokkie, with a 737 or A320 type, you'll never be out of a job again. Plenty of contract jobs out there!" Now look at how the market is flooded with desperate cadets paying for type ratings working for breadcrumbs leaving no opportunity anymore for experienced pilots with time on type. Even with >3000 hours on 737's and A320's I couldn't go back to my former employer even if I wanted to, simply because of low timers willing to work for peanuts.

I predict the same will happen with DEC's. IMHO, in a few years the market will be flooded with desperate captains, willing to just about do anything to leave the lousy low-cost outfit they work for, undercutting their colleagues who are in the same shoes and in the process making all this PIC experience in effect useless. It will be the next wave in dragging down T&C's to a newer and lower level in this industry. PIC time will only allow you to go from one lousy job to the other, (EZY --> RYR v.v.) perhaps only marginally improving one's life because of a better base. That's it!

Carpe diem folks: seize the day! Seize the opportunity to join a good outfit and leave this low-cost business behind, regardless whether you have 1000, 2000 or 10000 PIC hours in a shiny new 738 or A319!

That's just a despicable attitude Bokkenrijder. Everybody has the right to follow their dreams. What are you saying. People shouldn't be allowed to become pilots because they drag down conditions for the previous generation of pilots?

Listen to yourself.

d105, when and where did I say that people aren't allowed to follow their dreams? :confused:

I never said anything about "not being allowed to become a pilot" or "not being allowed to follow one's dream." However, people should realize what they are getting into and also try to make a long term plan, which is what this discussion is all about. Stick to the topic, or open a new thread about following dreams! If you can do neither, then stick to reading Cosmo! :p

Staying with a low-cost logging "valuable" PIC hours as a captain or jumping ship and the long term consequences of both options. That''s what I've given you my opinion about, not about this plain emotional "follow your dream" argument that you're now dragging into the discussion.

If you don't like my opinion you're free to disagree and back it up with you own experience and opinion of where this industry is headed in the long term. However if you have nothing constructive to add, well then please don't bother replying!

Don't take it personally Bokken, D105 thinks only people who work for Ryanair know anything about them and have the right to comment.

But that comment must be in line with his opinion or he'll get all shouty.

Lets not forget that if one gets the precious PIC time and then goes fly as an F/O somewhere around the world, after a year do you think you can still get hired as a captain in the contract world? Most contract jobs if not all require that you are current in the aircraft and seat. So 6 months or more as an F/O might not get you back in the left seat.