That was clearly what you are implying Bokkenrijder. Why else would you mention "desperate" cadets dragging down conditions for "experienced" pilots?

Hello Spandex, nice to see you've joined the discussion once again. We've had quite a few discussion on this before. All quite civilized. You know better.

I don't understand these type of statements either:

So what is it you want? This is called progress. This is where the world is heading to. There is no way back. You and I were one of these desperate people paying big money to fly. Accept the consequences.

Guys flying for main carriers are very lucky and this will last maybe another generation or two before that ends.

BTW, getting back to the question. As you have a young family, I am guessing in a few years time you'll be looking for stability and not being too long away from them. Now find a job that fits that lifestyle. IMHO that's more important than travel or money.

Limbo, I realize perfectly well that this is what the world is headed to, but you need to look one step further.

The profession of F/O has been virtually destroyed and turned into poor cadets being totally exploited in return for experience that gets them...in the LHS of the same operation with the same bosses out to destroy even more T&C's in order to enhance their bonuses. Why stop there? The next logical step, IMHO, is that the profession as captain will be destroyed by turning DEC's against each other just like most low-cost airlines have unfortunately been so successfully been doing with F/O's.

The question people need to ask themselves is whether they want to go down this low-cost route and go for the 4 stripes, or use that "bought and paid for" experience and move somewhere else.

Yes I agree that almost everybody in any low-cost airline (myself included) has some blame to carry for the deterioration of T&C's, but when I was in EZY I quickly realized that neither the company nor the union and colleagues were willing to make a stand against this rot. From a company perspective I can of course fully understand, but I could never quite figure out why my ex-colleagues nor BALPA ever made a stand. Even here on PPRuNe you have some pilots who feverishly seem to defend the companies and their P4T bending over backwards scams. :confused: So therefore I decided to use my "bought and paid for" experience and leave the low-cost industry and I advice as many people as possible to do the same. When you compare the deal I had (TRSS F/O with still a decent salary) to the deal that cadets now get (being a P4T contractor and basically beg for work so they can pay their bills) I guess that so far I've been proven right to leave. Mark my words: DEC's are next to be played out against each other when everybody is rushing for the exit.

d105, I think you misunderstand me. With "desperate" I mean that I genuinely feel sorry for people ending up in that situation.

I also am implying that "experience" as such, unfortunately won't get you very far as in any low-cost airline anymore, as the costs are the determining factor. Just like my F/O experience won't get me very far if I ever needed to apply with EZY or RYR again, I think that PIC experience won't get you very far in the next 5-10 years either. As a 737/A320 DEC, you'll be thirteen in a dozen.

Do you think that's a fair system?

I actually agree with this. Most of the easy Captains I used to fly with would happily leave if a suitable offer came along. Trouble is the offers aren't coming so they have to stay. But when they do..!

Exactly!

But ask yourself what what DEC jobs are out there that are with really good companies. Emirates? Could be, although personally the ME is not my cup of tea. Cathay used to have DEC jobs for the freighter fleet, but very high requirements and a very tough selection. Singapore Airlines is occasionally looking for DEC's on their freighter fleet, but T&C's are not what it once was and I think there's no transition to the pax fleet. That's about it, and most of these airlines only have room for a handful of DEC's, not the hundreds of young low-cost captains out there who perhaps want a change of scenery after 5 years in the LHS doing 4 sector days.

For the rest it's just contract jobs, some good others not so good, where you live paycheck to paycheck. Perhaps a nice retirement job when divorced (Vietnam Airlines ;)) but hardly a long term career plan...

I did and so resigned whilst still an FO to avoid the golden handcuffs. Easier to move now rather than give up a command and get a cut in pay.

I see young guys making Captain at easy with over 30 years ahead of them whilst every management comm to the pilots was about the ultra importance of maintaining a low cost. Having stalled the pay deal for over six months already, the writing is on the wall. Ezy's future will be head-banging through BALPA, especially with EASA's FTL's being bulldozed through.

YouTube - Wake up! Tired pilots risk lives

There is a lot of focus quite rightly on the negatives and the very real erosion of terms and conditions not just at Ryanair but throughout the industry. On the other hand Ryanair has pretty much doubled in size over the last few years creating vast numbers of flying jobs in the process.

An experienced FO or junior captain would appear to make pretty good money. After a couple of years as a captain say five years in if everything goes right I understand from other people's posts you can potentially make 130 euros times 900 hours minus some costs, so probably 100,000 euros plus. That is certainly not bad.

Compared to sponsorship at a legacy carrier the entry cost is high. But what percentage of people get a shot at that. I was talking to a friend last night whose grandson is applying to LH. He said they were told 6000 qualified candidates had applied for 240 openings which is probably better odds than for many years but still a lottery.

I do agree that there does not seem to be much to look forward to after making captain at Ryanair unless you use it as a springboard. Although I was amused by the poster boy on the Ryanair web sight saying that after 500 PIC he became a TRE.

Thirteen to the dozen A320/737 DEC's
 

Here are some more examples of what life is becoming for DEC's;

Air China Cargo Schedule

Parc Aviation's crappy pay TNT's B 777 freighter dogs

One post really caught my attention and that was posted by Airbus a321:Anyone with more than two braincells can see where this is going... :(

One more interesting post on the 777 TNT thread: