BA: financially, when is it no longer worth it?
 

Ladies and gentlemen,

I need to do some serious number crunching. Currently at EZY and considering BA. If I was 25, it would be a simple decision. But I'm getting dangerously close to 40 and I'm not sure the numbers add up.

Based on PPJN info, I put a spreadsheet together comparing total income over 25 years (let's assume I'll be 40 when I get in). In my spreadsheet I considered the worst case scenario where HMRC will tax flight and duty pay. They've been doing that at EZY since April, so you never know.

The other factor included in the spreadsheet is pension. EZY contribute 9% and BA 12%, so I accounted for an extra 11% personal contribution for EZY and 8% BA (I want total to be 20%).

Finally, I used Captain income for EZY (including bonus) since I am close to command course). For BA I used command at year 11 for short haul.

The numbers below are my best guess for BA NET monthly income, including flight/duty pay, after pension contribution for 25 years:


1 3318
2 3433
3 3548
4 3663
5 3778
6 3893
7 4008
8 4123
9 4238
10 4353
11 5344
12 5452
13 5560
14 5668
15 5776
16 5884
17 5992
18 6100
19 6208
20 6316
21 6424
22 6532
23 6640
24 6748
25 6856

If I add it all up over 25 years, it gives me £1.55 million. EZY total gives me £1.60 millions, so it's pretty much the same. EXCEPT THAT... my pension would be far better with EZY because I would earn more earlier.

If you work for BA, could you please check your years of service and compare you monthly NET with the figures above? Am I vaguely close to actual numbers? Remember this is with an additional 8% pension contribution.

Best regards,

P

P

You've done the research, so don't have much to add on the ££ numbers.

My only comment would be <<For BA I used command at year 11 for short haul>> I would say that is VERY optimistic. You could easily join BA now at age 40, and never get a SH command :{ At 40 you will be older than most of your fellow DEP/SSP entrants, and there are a lot of BA pilots well <40 now.

If you asked me for a "best guess" I would work your figures again for a SH command at year 15, but be prepared for year 20.

NoD

Permafrost I reckon your figures are about right (at first inspection)
However, can you see yourself living the Easyjet lifestyle for another 20 years? The nice thing about BA is that you can chop and change fleets/destinations and get to see a bit of the world. Whether that is worth the difference in cash is up to you.

Good research P. I don't work for BA but we are very similar;)

If 15 to 20 years to SH command is correct (as per Nigel's post,) then I can assume that the seniority list must be equally as large. In which case you will need to consider having no weekends free for years and flying the bid lines that no one senior wishes to fly as they're not popular trips.

To have researched this so well and thoroughly I'm guessing that you're looking to find where's best to spend the heavyweight earning period of your career. If you're in a position to consider it then perhaps a move to the M.E would suit you better at your age.

If all goes well, there's a high probability to become a skipper on a 330/340/350/380 or 777 within 6-8 years. Although its London prices out there (so nothing new to me) there are very, very few bills to pay with friends of mine earning large sums of tax free money with only a mobile phone and internet charges to pay for as a regular outgoing. (I'm sure you have friends out there as well.)

With the UK coalition govt. cutting middle class benefits, taxes rising and general costs rising like petrol, house and car insurance, it could be a good time to move.

Horses for courses I guess.

65?
 

The other consideration as you approach 'half-life is whether you'll still be flying in 25 years. I retired some years ago however I notice there is a small but significant/growing number of my ex colleagues who wouldn't be able to hold a licence even though they're under 65. There are others who have quit after 60 but not continued to 65.

BA is very much the curates egg. (Other threads discuss whether it's the grail or not). If you have the opportunity for a command pretty soon I'd take it. You'd be more 'saleable' with command hours than with F/O hours should you ever think of moving to another carrier. From my recollection (and this may be out of date now) 'early' (somewhat out of seniority or GSS) commands are sometimes available 'in the regions' with BA, but would you wish to move house/family or commute at age say, 55 for one of those (ie not LHR/LGW) as you see your projections of 15 years ago running awry.

The devil you know, beware what you wish for etc.

S:hmm:

There are no opportunities with BA for regional commands really. It's Heathrow or Gatwick only. Possibilities with GSS in Standstead as well as openskies.

Also, I would say 15 years to a shorthaul command is VERY pessimistic!! Up until the recession hit, it was 7 - 8 years. What it will be in two years times nobody knows. That depends on retirement/expansion etc... Certainly won't be as long as 15 years though!!

Surely by age 40 you have realised that there is more to life than money and quality of life is much more important.

P,

As one who did it in the late 1980s (left the RAF, joined BA at age 38, retired at 55 - 6 months "too old" to stay :{, now in a well-known LoCo until 65 :eek: ):

It was worth it for me - I had a command at LHR in 9 years and could have had one at LGW after 3 years as a result of the Dan-Air acquisition if I had bid for it. I could also have had a 744 command for my last 3 years if I had bid for it.

However, if the current situation vis-a-vis the pilot demographic profile had pertained then I would not have joined which means, of course, I wouldn't do it now if I was magically 38 again.

I think you'll have a far more rewarding and progressive career if you don't join BA - assuming that you wish to go for promotion beyond being a line captain.

Timing is all. Now is not the time for mature joiners IMHO.

Thanks to all for the feedback so far, keep it coming :ok:

Because it's not impossible I would have to wait 15 years even for SH command, plus the issue of compound interest vis-a-vis the old pension fund, it's likely that I would be worse off financially with BA.

Craggs, financially I can't fault your sand pit argument. But I just don't want to live there. I did the expat thing for a few years in my twenties and got fed up with it eventually. Most people do. Been there done that. Wife likes her job, kids like their school. I know what you mean about what lies ahead in the UK though :{

Sygyzy Something that's definitely at the back of my mind. With BA I will very much rely on age 55-65 to bring me the highest income. Dangerous.

Bingofuel, you've gone to the heart of the issue. It's NOT all about the money. In my previous career, I found out the hard way on two occasions that a more lucrative job can also make you miserable when you hate the job.

So let's hear it from previous EZY->BA shifters. Is the grass greener?

P

LH -

Aircraft are great, new fleets coming in with the 380, the 787 and (possibly) the A350 XWB.

Varied destinations when you are senior enough to bid!

Hotels are excellent. Most city centre and quiet

Rosters are getting tighter but not too tight yet, will have to see when all of the Colgen Air mud settles and the FAA/EASA FTL agreements get hammered out.

Very stable.

SH -

Busy but fun.

Great hotels, great destinations. Most hotels are city centre well away from the airport.

The length of the night stops can run short sometimes. However this can be balanced by standover days and lengthier stops if bid for. Sometimes its just nice to switch the jet off and go look around where you've flown to!

If you get in at the start of a recruitment phase you can gain control of your roster quite quickly and thus your time off and your variable pay.

Very stable.

Is it about money? If that is your primary driver then as you have intimated BA is probably not going to be the thing for you. If it is about variety, the ability to mix SH and LH and the ability to look around the places you fly to then possibly, yes BA could do it for you.

Time to command is a variable feast as NOD states. IF the company expands (bear in mind there is very little space at LHR) then TTC could come down. There has been little movement for the past 5 years mind you which means there are many, many SFO's awaiting their turn which will slow things down for current joiners. The pension changes might be having a fairly dramatic effect at the moment though as those on the top find they can't syphon off excess into AVC's as they used to.

Food for thought.

Second you might want to consider is time away from home. BA is doing a lot of nightstops, you might like it, you might not. When you are commuting it could be great, but if you only live in close distance from the airport, being home almost every night could be invaluable as well.

I have considered applying, but this was one of the main reasons for me to stay at easy.

I am surprised that no one so far has said my estimated figures were a bit low. Like I said, I assumed tax on full flight and duty pay (in case it changes).

That's why I initially posted my estimated figures here. I had often heard that after 8 years or so at BA you would end up with a salary similar to EZY captain. Not by a long shot according to my spreadsheet! If you include the 15% bonus, I make it about 5,500 a month for EZY vs 4,123 for BA. That's not small change!

I agree with those who said that lifestyle if worth sacrificing some income. But I still need to pay the mortgage and put the kids through school and university!

P

Permafrost,

As you asked I would suggest that, dependent upon working patterns and taking into account the pay cut we all took, you are about £750-£1000 adrift on your net income figures.

Based on my personal figures anyway.

As other posters have made clear, there is far more to a shift to BA than £££. But since it is the title of the thread, let me expand on "Time to Command".

Factors one needs to assess/determine to make an educated guess:

1. Age Profile of current BA pilots. Essentially max 58, then guess maybe an ~even distribution down to ~25.
2. Average Retirrement age of BA Pilots. Hard to say, but I'd guess at ~62 - majority go on as long as possible, balanced by a few going earlier, voluntarily or involuntarily. But if the retirement age increases further :=
3. Change in pilot numbers. Has not changed much over last 15years, and not BA's aim/ability to "expand" much. Slight increase in aircraft numbers coming up, but if they get painted white/orange and red not a lot of use for BA Pilot numbers :(
4. P1 v P2 ratio. Substantially <50%, and with any expansion more LH orientated, will further reduce.
5. How many P2s do not take a Command when they could? Desire for LH / Commuting means this is good number - but pay / tax / Pension implications could affect it.
6. Take up of Part Time. Likely to increase, and hopefully by P1s :ok:
7. IB factor ???? Do not forget there is not really an airline called "BA" now... it is a subset of IAG, and who knows what, if any, the implications will be for the "BA Pilot Seniority list/numbers" :ooh:

I made an analysis / best guess before joining BA in 1996, and came up with 7-8 years, and was lucky enough for the numbers to make it 6.5. But when I joined, a new LHR Capt on the then "junior fleet" (757/767) was ~22yrs.

NoD

BA: financially, when is it no longer worth it?
When you decide to join their BA Cityflyer ops. Sorry, just couldn't resist... ;)

You can't just add the figures up can you...you need a NPV analysis as the value of £6500/month 25 years from now isn't what its worth today.

Let some of the old guys tell you what their cash was worth 25 years ago?

Of course if you assume your pay rises keep pace with inflation then the "real" value of the cash is maintained.

But that certainly isn't the case with my pay packet over the last 10 years!

Lastly, but not leastly, if you're able to pay your £400K/20 years mortgage off 10 years early by earning earlier in your career rather than later, you'll save yourself...about £125K if the interest rate is 5%.

At 10%, you'll save yourself £289K.

Statistically, with health issues being more likely to rear their ugly head in later life, earning early in your career in such an uncertain world has got to be a good thing.

If the break-even point was age 50, rather than age 60, different ball game.

FWIW.

Not exactly finance related, but can anybody tell me about the healthcare plan provided by BA? How would this work for somebody living outside the UK (Mainland Europe)?

Thanks again chaps.

NOD, let me have a got at your algorithm..

Very few retirements for next four years, since max age 58 and average retirement 62.

Even spread from 25 to 58, giving 33 years. So plus four, that's 37.

Hard for me to gauge the whole ratio of SH/LH migrations, as well as P1/P2 ratio, but I'm going to make a blind guess that the decreasing P1/P2 ratio might be compensated for by the amount of P1s going part time and P2s not taking SH commands.

So 37/2= 19-ish. To that I will apply what seems to have been the spread between SH/LH time to command: 7 years.

Final guess for SH command 19-7=12. Minimum, of course.

Like you said, it's not all about the money. But I need data for financial planning. My house is paid off but I have two young children and a wife who is considering starting a business. When did it all get so complicated? :rolleyes:

Cheers,

P

You do know that easyJet new Captains in Rome and Milan are taking home net of tax €9,000 a month every month and sometime more if busy? That's more than the BA SFO net 25 year point in Sterling. I mean if the sun the skiing and la dolce vita is putting you off then I fully understand why you'd prefer to stay local to the M25...

Spain is pretty much the same.


WWW

Yes but can the Milan chaps fly 5 four sector days in a row for 25 years?

What? 20 1.5hr sectors from ILS to ILS in a new A320 followed by 4 or 3 days off? For €9k take home a month. Err, Yes.

If money is the topic its tricky to beat €2,250 a week net.


WWW

European perspective
 

I'm based in Italy as an F/O with easy taking home 5500-6200 euros per month. The present workrate isn't sustainable though, I've been here for 2 years now, and with easy for 4 in total, its bloody tiring! I dont honestly think you could count on working a full career in low cost.

As an aside the present sterling/euro rate is very flattering to a euro salary. However, if you work out here you pay bills etc in euros, also who's to say where the rate will go in future?

just my 2 cents, euro cents obviously ;)

WWW you are comparing apples with pears.
If I use the exchange rate of 10 years ago, a BA capt living in NCE, and thus paying no tax, made 15000€/month! So relying on todays exchange rates and loopholes in the tax laws or special tax agreements isn't the way to go if you want to make a long term decision.

If I was younger I'd apply to BA, just for the career and the options it offers. Life isn't all about money.

However my friends in BA regularly do 900 hours longhaul. Quite what the medical implications of long term deep night and multiple timezone changes over a potential 30000hr career is going to be interesting.

Not sure how many hours they average on shorthaul at LHR?

However I'm not young anymore, LHS and like being home pretty much everynight so I'll stick with what I've got.....

Its surely all personal choice. As for sustainability of EZY lifestyle, I have been in the orange machine for 9 years and find it fine. I do think the variants in LH/SH would be the main attraction at BA but pay and how hard you work isn't too different. I guess as said before, do you want to travel loads and see places or do you prefer to be at home most nights. I certainly wouldn't swap what I have right now but that is largely down to a good home lifestyle in a good base!

Either way, its a nice choice to have and I doubt either would lead to gnashing of teeth ad ashcloth wearing!!

Good luck :ok:

I was under the impression that at BA, with the right seniority, you have the ability to plan your own life how you want it i.e. if you don't want the nightstops you don't bid for that type of roster and stay home every (most) nights? If you want a night in Rome, Madrid or Budapest you bid for it?

Any BA bod care to comment?

Indeed, the more I read the comments here and the more I think about it all, it's going to come down to personal choice. Horses for courses. Giving up 5/4/5/3 and most nights at home would certainly be hard though!

Staff travel is a big part of it for me. I have close relatives in many parts of the world and besides the fact that it's limited to Europe (mostly), EZY staff travel is rubbish.

Thanks for all the feedback so far. Would be nice to hear from ex-EZYs at BA :ok:

P

Yes but can the Milan chaps fly 5 four sector days in a row for 25 years?

Touche! This is the big question. If it wasn't the case then I wouldn't be going to a BA interview in a couple of weeks!

Flew long haul for 6.5 years, totally knackered and v.v fatigued... heaven was two weeks in the same time zone! Spent the past 10+ years with the Orange Order, some weeks honestly tired from too many earlies, sometimes fatigued from 20 sectors in five days, but never as bone numbingly knackered as from long haul with its Jet Lag and fatigue. Yes, sometimes you fly 20/5, but never all f*%@g year round! Remember, mud is the same consistency on both sides of the fence.

Having said that, If I were a lot, lot younger (max late 20's), then I'd still go for the BA option. Anything later, get your jet command, then if you're really bored, go for expat command (Korean, Etihad etc..), but don't expect to come home when you've had enough.

easy

5 or 6 years ago I was flying up to 24 sectors a week, 890hrs/year, in the RHS.

Now, with the same airline, I fly half that in the LHS.

Talking about what is sustainable, I wonder how many people in other walks of life, who are taking home €9,000/month net, are working less than 11.45x5 hrs/week i.e., less than 60hrs/week and are able to exploit tax regulations to do so?

No doubt someone will find an exception to the rule, but there is no free lunch these days.

It is purely my own observation, but those people who earn a similar wage to me in different professions are working a lot harder than me in the LOCO industry.

Having worked in another profession and earned nowhere near what I do now, I can do the LOCO thing for the next 25 years.

I will have to as the West tries to claw itself back from the brink of bankruptcy.

P

Good effort! You took most of the hints I was making...

One disagreement My "logic" was based on earliest / SH command. So I would agree with 19yrs, not with the "-7 SH" factor you applied.

Given the relatively good P2 long term pay, and better (?) lifestyle, BA might still be a good bet, but if you needed a command at some defined point to make it worthwhile, I'd be wary :suspect:

NoD

Sorry about the off-topic, but since it has been raised, how easy is it to change base at EZY? (no pun). If you were a Spanish/Italian national based in the UK, what are your chances of getting a move to those bases? Any requirements? (apart from the obvious that there's a vacancy there...)

You stick you name on the waiting list. After some months\years you get to the top and the next vacancy arising is yours. To move from the UK to a Spanish or Italian base in either seat is a matter of a year or so's wait presently. Bases vary. Gatwick or Luton is fairly easy to get into. Other regional bases such as North Somerset have decade long waiting lists.

Looking at the logbook I have done 787hrs in the last rolling 12 months. Looking at the payslips I have earned (Basic+Sector pay) £104k with pension, bonuses, insurances and share schemes on top of that figure. Without going Jedi and becoming a trainer that's about the top for the UK contract.

All the French, Spanish and Italian contracts pay >30% more than that.


New payscales are currently in negotiation and should be backdated to Sept2010 with an expectation of at least 5%, or, some significant lifestyle improvements. The company has put £5,000,000 on the table as a pre-negotiation opener.

Can't see the point of BA shorthaul from the money angle and the industrial relations 'climate' is something I could do without every day.. Is there still a cheeseboard though?


WWW

Maverick 83 - you are right, it is way off topic and not really honouring to the genuine questions being asked.

For what it is worth, I am very sympathetic to those who wish to go to BA. There is some deep lingering doubt deep within all of us that feels somehow we have not really 'made it' unless we have made it with BA or our equivalent national carrier. And that is what I would like to address. This is essentially an illusion and has led many people to make crazy decisions that amount to career suicide in pursuit of a dream that really has no foundation. Permafrost ATPL is a sincere guy who genuinely wants to do the right thing. The evidence is simply overwhelming that the right thing is not to go to BA - yet the desire still lingers. He is about to be a captain at easyJet, can work anywhere in Europe, earn vast sums of money and still get home to to his lovely wife and kids. He also will work the 5/3/5/4 roster pattern which is a godsend to any aviator. I do not in any way knock BA - they are a great company with a fine history. If you are 24 then there is really nothing to discuss. If you are 40 then you are potentially making a catastrophic error of judgement driven by that indefinable yet palpable inner doubt which says you have to take BA when it is on offer. I fully understand the temptation but the reality is potentially very different. No company has a guaranteed future - BA and easyJet certainly do not. Nonetheless, right now easyJet is a very safe place to be with fantastic promotion opportunities if you are in the right place on the command list. Why throw that away and deliberately decide to spend night after night away from your family when you do not have to? The argument against easyJet is that no one could keep up that pace for ever - it is no different to the pace of life in SH at BA. From me, it is a no-brainer for someone of that age and stage in his career - don't listen to the voices! I genuinely wish you well, but refer you back to my first point - this is being driven by a completely understandable, but essentially irrational, feeling about what 'making it' really means. You are undoubtedly a capable, competent guy - you do not have to prove that by going to BA. I genuinely would wish you well, but any true mate would be warning you that at your age you could find yourself waiting for an eternity to get even a short-haul command. You need to be careful about being driven into a decision that takes you away from your family and into many years of utter professional frustration. Best of luck whatever you decide.

Hi P,

I made the move from EZY to BA during the last recruitment drive. I got my command with EZY at a very young age, but couldn't stand the thought of doing the same thing for another 30-odd years and secondly the 5 earlys where killing me.

I was lucky enough to go straight to LH, and I have to say I love it. As someone said earlier, the nights out of bed are very tiring but you're knackered in a very different way. Assuming you do 4 trips a month, of which half are night flights, you're only out of bed for 4 nights a month.

Being very junior I get what's left at the bottom of the pile, but on my fleet that's still a good mix of trips. If you're a family man and appreciate being at home at the weekend, you might be disappointed though.


As I haven't done shorthaul in BA I can't really say too much about it, but it seems they have to be doing many more duty hours than at EZY if they fly 900 hrs a year.

Money wise in your case my guess is you would probably be better of at EZY :eek:

It's a lifestyle choice. Less time at home, more time enjoying work, more control over roster (eventually), choice of fleets etc.

With all due respect, worst case you might not pass the selection, or might not get your command for whatever reason, so maybe you should just give it your best shot and see if you have the luxury to decide?

Good luck with whatever you decide :ok:

NSF,

I understand what you're saying, but I think you make quite a few assumptions that might be true for you, but not necessarily for everyone:

I've never felt I hadn't "made it" if I didn't get to fly for a national airline. I just fancied a choice of SH and LH over my carreer, and a "good" company to achieve that. I'm not married to BA: they provide what I want, and I provide what they want (well so far anyway:})

5/4/5/3 is not a godsend for every aviator, it was one of my main reasons for leaving EZY

Your argument that the pace of SH in BA is probably similar to EZY might be true, but you have the opportunity to change fleets to a lifestyle that does suit you. If you change your mind or your personal circumstances change you change fleets again. That's the upside.

I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I find that very condescending. This guy isn't trying to impress his mates, he's just trying to make an informed decision

I do agree with you that it's a very important decision. And even a SH command will take an eternity. But a command is not the holy grail for everyone either.

Just my thoughts, and no, I don't do BA recruitment

roster patterns
 

NSF please excuse my ignorance. If you (at EZY) are on a row of late duties is it possible that you can be home at around midnight (give or take) five nights in a row? i.e. when your wife and kids have gone to bed? Is the 5,4,5,3 really as good as it cracks up to be? On the flip side is it possible you have to be up at the crack of dawn for a row of early duties?

I really ask out of genuine interest.

Thanks

NSF, I know what you are trying to say and there are probably individuals out there who have an irrational desire to fly for BA. I don't think that's the case for me. I have learned in previous lives that working for "prestigious" companies is not always what it's cracked up to be. In fact in my last job prior to aviation, I worked for what was seen as the pinacle of the industry and I earned more than ever before. And I hated it :yuk:

Indeed carbheatout, that can be the case. And when that happens with minimum rest, you don't get to see the family.

I have not irrational desire to be a captain ASAP. After 12 years in corporate life, I am happy to go fly and have a nice day out with the chap or chapette sitting next to me. I'm sure getting the left seat is very enjoyable and rewarding, but if it comes with constant exhaustion I'm happy to spend a fair few years in the right hand seat. I meet more and more captains at EZY who seem to be genuinely fatigued and fed up. Part of the problem is the constant flux of new cadets on 6 month contracts. A lot of captains say it's making them far more tired than they used to be.

I also worry about boredom. I like changes, I always have. EZY simply does not offer that. See the world, fly different types, it sounds pretty interesting to me. And as mentioned before, my relatives scattered across the globe make BA staff travel very attractive.

I really think I am trying to get into BA for the right reasons. BUT... I am concerned about the financial aspect. It's hard enough to build yourself a big enough pension these days. And 25 years of EZY captain money would help a lot.

Well maybe the folks at The River will make the decision for me :suspect:

P

Oh and Dutchjock ... That can't have been a hard decision then :p

Financially then its a no brainer - take the EZY command in MAD, ROM, MXP and rake in €9,000 a month from now to retirement.

Career wise - seems like you want to join BA and do other things.

I'd give it a go. Life's too short to spend time wondering What If and money isn't everything. Go an experience medium/long haul - you might love it.


WWW