What is going on with Olympic Air ????
 

Within tha last few weeks a number of pilots ( rumors that they are more than 30) have been fired, in a rather unsual way. They have been called in Flight Operations Manager's office, where a lady from HR was also present, and have been informed that their services are not needed any more. An envelope with their finishing salary was handed to them. :=

The latest incident happened two days ago : :ugh:

The aicraft, was ready for push back in Athens International, when the Captain was informed by ground crew to stop the procedure and open the door (company order). After doing so a company representative came in cockpit only to announce, to the two astonished pilots :confused:, that the FO cannot fly because he had already been fired and by mistake have not been informed by HR :ugh:

You can imagine the rest :\ Two hours delay until the STBY FO arrived.

wow I wonder what this is all about!!!

Fired? Or made redundant?

Was this the Airbus fleet or Dash 8 fleet?

CC

Trust me guys its Chaos out there.

Before anyone asks how I know this, please trust me on this one I have had firsthand experience.

When I was there it was initially ok, however working alongside the Flybe contract always had its minor issues. Mainly the BEE guys doing it right and better. This put the Greek noses often out of joint.

Anyway towards the end, 40 Pilots from the airbus fleet were made redundant as they are minimising the fleet due to the Aegean Merger. Before anyone asks although in principle the Greek Government has deferred the deal until December, its already happening behind closed doors. This is Greece and this is how they work, they are unwilling to change.

The most astonishing thing is that they made the good guys walk and kept the guys from the 'OLD' Olympic. They are trying there best to improve standards one gentleman in the flight safety office is a great guy (british) but in my humble opinion he is fighting a losing battle. Aviation is bizarre in Greece. As evident from the recent release of 40 pilots from the airbus fleet. There are guys screaming to get out, mostly the Contract guys.

Again in my humble opinion, leave well alone. Once flybe return on the 31st OCT they will be left alone with pilots with little experience on the Q400, yet don’t worry they have been flying these islands for 40years!! Yeah ok whatever!

Leave alone guys, look elsewhere and let’s see what’s left of them in the later part of the year. Its a toy town in Athens and the grownups still see themselves as skygods!?

In Reality they are clueless, to the real world of aviation, safety, FDM and EU Ops.

:=:=:=

Maxalphaboy and Choppercopper 99,

You guys are right and I can understand why you see the situation as bad and very unprofessional. I also fly here with the so called " competitor " airline, but then again my backround is from here so I see things in a different light. Anything that happens here in Greece, happens for a reason (Conspiracy Theory). The merger (happening or not) will go ahead under the table or above board if approved, its the nature of the market here....money makes things happen.
Don't forget that Aegean will own 75% of the newly merged Olympic and only 6 Olympic Airbus will remain after the merge. Being already fully crewed Aegean will not require any crew, so they will have to go. It is unfortunate...but there is no mercy here in Greece :ugh:
Its a difficult pill to swallow, but like anyone flying in Greece you always have to have a plan B! And that I always make sure of :ok:

Good luck to everyone

Maxalphaboy, so your so experienced and your such a great pilot in order to be able to judge pilots from a country that has one of the best safety records in european aviation??? Did you forget about the Flybe pilots that almost landed at the wrong airport in Greece? :ugh:


Think before you judge.. I agree, things are hectic in greece right now and airlines are unorganised.. take a look at other airlines in Europe and on the "Island", it doesnt differ much..

SVoa,

I only know of one incident that matches what you imply, and the airline involved was not flybe!! Contractor yes but not flybe. Of course I could be wrong as I am not perfect either!

SVoa,

I dont actually recall claiming this, This seems purely an assumption on your part. My point still stands. I had first hand experience of many incidents on a daily basis that spread from minor SOP errors to blatant compromises in safety. Each time they came with a surprising justification from my colleague.

I Cant and Wont argue with you about the safety record in Greece, however I would say that from what I have seen, its most likely because incident are never willingly reported. Also the introduction of FDM at OA is a recent addition, it is already proving interesting!!

I spent months thinking and am fully confident in my judgement of OA and there operation. I find it offensive that you would even consider comparing aviation safety in Greece to that in the UK. Its a Joke, there are massive differences.

With Regard to your BEE incident, I am fully aware of the circumstances and I know the crew involved. Its not as serious as was made out, even in the AAIB report there were inaccuracies.

MAB :ok:

Due to the same reporting culture as in state finances?

Nice one......:D

Denti, your comment is almost racist and not in the scope of this conversation. My point is that i know of very many cases not only in Greece and not only in the UK, but in other countries as well where SOP's were ignored and safety compromised. And anyone who works in aviation can tell you the same thing. I also know that when EASA did an audit on Olympic sometime last summer, the results werent to standard, im aware of this. But I think your stretching it a bit.

But yeah I forgot, when investigation board blames the non-greek pilots there are deffinately some inaccuracies...



Bottom line, you dont like it? You know where the door is..

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Quote - "Bottom line, you dont like it? You know where the door is.."


I would of thought that the BOTTOM LINE is to improve safty at all costs!!!!:rolleyes:

The bottom line is that the country you are burrying right now has a very good safety record in terms of accidents AND incidents. There have been 3 accidents involving greek registered aircraft since 1995, all three of them are involving military aircraft. One more fatal accident within Greek airspace involving a cypriot airliner.. not greek.

A number of incidents on the Q400's at OA recently, all of them NOT involving greek crew. I never said safety standards in the UK are bad.. There are issues everywhere, others are breach of SOP's and others are F/O's flying on max hours and minimum rest, and not having enough money to eat. My point is that looking back, Greece has very good safety records, and so do OA and A3.

Maxalphaboy,

I have done a search of AAIB reports involving BEE in Greece and the only one I note had nothing to do with 'nearly' landing at the wrong airport. Without throwing stones the incident that did involve 'nearly' landing at the wrong airport was by another operator and type.

I do not have the report of this incident but did speak to the crews of the airline involved, a day or two after that event.

The AAIB event I believe you may be referring to is of something quite different. And I agree, inaccuracies abound.

CaptAirProx,

You are indeed right, SVOA is incorrect. There was an error by BEE in Greece as seen by the report below. However it was not landing at the wrong airport!?

I know the Captain involved personally, and I know from seeing the initial report that there are inaccuracies in the AAIB report.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...BD%2007-10.pdf

Report: Flybe DH8D at Chania on Feb 23rd 2010, crew forgot about displaced threshold on landing

MAB :ok:

Reading all the above posts... what exactly is the problem? Olympic laying off people and the way they do it? Your contracts ending? Intending merger and ongoing preparation and coordination behind closed doors? And what is so special about it? Hasn't this happened before in other airlines?

If there are safety issues, dear collegues, why do you speak up right now just before your contracts end and not ealier? And please show me a way an airline can hide nowadays accidents.

Denti, spare us your smart comments. We (Greeks) love you, too.

From the report:

Non event then. Next case?

Correct you are, almost landing at the wrong airport was not a Flybe crew. Apologies for the mistake. It was an ATR42 that mistaked Paros airport for Naxos airport (two airports dont look much alike).. However crew was NOT Greek..

@SVoa

Speaking of inaccuracies, although being off topic, can you help my memory and name those three accidents of SX- registered aircraft since 1995 involving military aircraft? I guess you are not referring to HAF accidents...

One Pezetel CFIT, one C130 that went down near Tanagra AFB, and the recent one with F-16's colliding in mid air during a routine training excersice. However there are more.. One more including a CL-215 crashing during a firefighting flight near Kalamata AFB, an F-16 crashing near Karpathos (Turkish aircraft also involved in this accident). The first thrre mentioned were the only ones i could find documentation on online.

However as I said, these are all involving non-civilian transport.

Why are you guys arguing about what accidents happened and where!?!?
Greece has some bad ways of doing things and so does the UK! Its exactly the same in both places with small differences, and all countries are the same too!

The whole point of this thread "Is what is happening with Olympic". If you don't work there or don't know what is going on, there is nothing you need to say.

Please lets try and keep this on the thread topic, so we can all learn here!

YYZ_Instructor

@SVoa,

Apparently you are in a wrong topic. Non of the above mentioned accidents has anything to do with SX-registered aircraft. These are (only a few of the) HAF accidents which are totally irrelevant with this topic and the (indeed) good safety record of greek airlines. Military, SAR and fire fighting flights are totally irrelevant. So please...

Again sorry for being off topic, which was... what exactly?

The last fatal airline accident in Greece, involving an aircraft of a Greek airline, occurred on August 1989, CFIT of a Shorts 330 in Samos. Oh my, maxalphaboy that's when you got off diapers!

When there are issues concerning flight safety, the company (especially if there is a British gentleman in the flight safety office !!! ) and/or the regulating authority should know about. That's called filing an incident or irregularity or air safety report. Oh, and that's what pilots who respect themselves and their profession do, while on contract and not afterwards.

The majority of the pilots who were laid off were guys from the old Olympic and by the way, they are the most experienced and in their 40's.

As far as the competency of Greek airline pilots is concerned let me mention the following : lgir, lgrp with southern winds , lgsm with any kind of wind!,lgkr lgko with TSRA to mention a few of the airports that have caused the premature graying of many pilot's heads ( including British!!).

Aristoclis... You must have failed to read my previous post. What I am saying is that Greek pilots are not half as bad as some others in this forum were implying. Read my previous post before saying I am off topic. Also, this discussion is very relevant to this topic. Someone earlier in this thread was implying that whats going on in OA, is that there are a bunch of irresponsible and incompetent Greek pilots putting lives at danger. I just wanted to respond to this by showing that since 1995, all accidents with Greek aircrew were involving military aircraft only and that Greek civil aviation has a very good safety record!

So what is going on with Olympic Air then??? Aegean and Olympic have planned to merge, the EU, for the time being, is not allowing this to happen ( they will investigate the case until Jan 2011 ). However the two airlines are trying to split the market by basically staying out of eachothers way where ever they can. Since the plan is for the current management of Aegean to own 75% or more of the airline after the merger, they are basically running the show. Aegean downgraded some captains and from what i know thats as far as it went. Olympic on the other hand, has seen close to 60 pilots being sacked, and even more cabin crew. Clearly, Aegean is simply keeping their own fish in their own tank. However, there are rumors that the plan is for Aegean to stay as they are and even try to expand, and for Olympic to reposition as a domestic/regional carrier, possibly not even based in ATH but at SKG. This however is just a rumor.

I believe if they are not allowed to merge, one of the airlines (possibly OA) will have to go.. Greece can not sustain two full service carriers, and definately not in the current political and economic environment. I have no idea what is happening with the Flybe crew and the contract pilots from Parc Aviation though. Are they staying or leaving?

SVoa

Why bashing ?
 

I have been flying for OA and for A3 as a contract pilot.
Yes, things are different here in Greece, lost of things happening under the table. But the flight ops with OA and A3 is of normal standard. 99% of all the crews are doing a good job, well trained and 99,9 % in line with SOP.
Some SIM instructors in both companies are surely above average.

I have no statistics on safety in Greece but I asume it's pretty much the same like in most other EU counties.
No need for any greek pilot bashing here !
I had never any serious complaint with an F/O in almost two years.
Nobody's perfect, not me, not you. But in both companies they do a good job for not the best money in the industry. Finally don't forget that some of the island airports are no fun to fly with high wind, and that's their daily business.
And, yes, OA has laid off ca. 30 Pilots and all the PARC contractors are gone by 10/31.

The merge ? I doubt it will go through but plan B is most likely OA focusing on Q4's and some A320's and A3 doing the rest.

nd it offensive that you would even consider comparing aviation safety in Greece to that in the UK

now you talk b####it!
OLYMPIC AIRWAYS, and OLYMPIC AIRLINES, had a very high standard of safety. According to your comment regarding the safety in UK, i must inform you, that OA never lost an aircraft, due to fuel starvation.....(777....you know...):mad:
I don't know about OAir, which has NOTHING to do with OLYMPIC.
This is a completely new airline.
I must say, that in Greece, everything works this way...
That's why this country is in such a difficult economic situation...:eek:

And were the 'this is Greece'/'we always did it this way in old Olympic' get out clauses to be dropped from the lexicon, you would probably have a much healthier country and healthier business model at OA. :ugh:

And what dou you mean exactly by "healthier country"? And by the way, which country are you from?

Dear Aviation Refugee,
please check your information before posting aggressive comments.
If you refer to the BA 777 accident at LHR and check, you will find that the fuel starvation was due to an engine design problem and not the airline not putting enough fuel in the tanks.

aristoclis,

I'm a Brit, but through my Greek girlfriend, spend as much of my time as possible in either ATH or LXS.

Please do not think I'm anti-Greece, I'm far from it. But entrenched attitudes and practices at both a national level and within OAL are blocking progress.

I think that he did not posted an aggressive comment, but as far as EVERYONE knows, the 777 fell from the sky luckily on rw 27L threshold, due to fuel starvation, which was very nicely "covered" by the authorities.....
So leave the crap, because if it was another airliner, not so "famous" there would be a very-very big "mess"!!!!!:ugh::{:mad:

@ SmilingKnifed

Well, I would agree in general with your statement about entrenched attitudes and practices, but I don't think national health is the topic discussed, nor your general conclusion justified (Greece not being a healthy country). And then again who are we (and you) to judge a country's health and with which criteria.

And by the way, intrenched attitudes and practices were shown in the posts of some brits as well in this topic:
"Mainly the BEE guys doing it right and better" and "Due to the same reporting culture as in state finances?"

Should I come to any conclusions about Britain's health?

actually, when greeks build the PARTHENON, some of the now europeans, where living in caves....

You're quite correct, my family included. I'm pleased to say we've come a long way in terms of intelligence in the intervening years. Based on your comments regarding the BA accident, dear chap I fear you haven't.

Aristoclis, I'm keen to put this one to bed to avoid further thread creep, so I'll reiterate the point, I have no axe to grind with the Greek people and love my time there.

But the fact remains that the Greek government openly lied to the EU and international markets about the parlous state of your finances. This profligacy and corruption have left you facing one of the greatest challenges to your nation since the civil war.

I won't pretend for a second that the UK is a bed of roses, we have many problems, both financial and social (both we seem to be addressing).

As Greece sheds some of the entrenched attitudes such as the requirement for an envelope stuffed with cash being proffered to a doctor for an operation and lorry drivers' licences being bought for in excess of 100,000 euros from retirees, so I hope Olympic will thrive and look forward, evolving as it does. In both I wish you well.

It is not always helpful to suggest a particular nation's pilots are all incompetent - it just leads to unhelpful discussions that lead nowhere. The issue is more to do with entrenched cultural values that can be barriers to the highest standards of safety. I think those trying to defend the indefensible would do well to listen to the wise words of SmilingKnifed - unpalatable as they are.

Furthermore, to try and talk of the BA 777 accident as a case of 'fuel starvation' in the sense the term is normally applied is, at best, disingenuous. The unspoken assertion in 'fuel starvation' incidents is that the pilots were in some way responsible for having fuel on board an aircraft but the fuel not reaching the engines. That was clearly not the case, and everyone in the industry knows that to be so, even though there will always be the faintly-tragic conspiracy theorists who say otherwise. Such people are in the same category as those who believe man did not land on the moon, George Bush arranged the September 11th World Trade Center attack and that MI5 killed Princess Diana. Nothing, but nothing, will persuade them of the futility of their views, and the more evidence that piles up against them the more of a conspiracy they detect. I think most readers here would not be comfortable to be associated with such views.

Do the Greeks have things to put right within their aviation world? Most definitely. Would the general aviation practices in Greece be comparable to those in the UK? I suspect not. Can you say Greece is riddled with corruption at a level which is almost impossible for most UK citizens to have any identity with? Tragically yes. Can you say every Greek pilot is a cowboy? Absolutely not. Are there many great Greek pilots? Certainly. And herein lies the problem - the fact that there are so many good guys among the Greeks should not prevent them from seeking to change the unacceptable practices that have gained a place in their national psyche. There are a whole lot of things in the UK we have not got right, but aviation is an area where there is much to be pleased with. I trust that we will each have the humility to tackle what is wrong in our own nations for the greater good of all our people.

Is this thread about the Greek economy or about Olympic Air (a new private company that has nothing to do with ex OA)?
I would suggest everyone stops the comparison between aviation cultures and get back on topic about the merger,future of the company and pilots!

This is certainly getting boring.

Does anyone have any idea about this new contract out by Parc?
I was surprised since they just layed off approx 30 pilots :rolleyes:

YYZ_Instructor,

See, that's what I mean. A thread started about Olympic air. Someone implies there are safety issues, especially now since the brits are leaving. He also suggests to keep an eye on the company because of the greek cowboys (that's what he implies). And when he gets the answer that the last fatal accident involving airline in Greece (apart Falcon accident) was in 1989, which is a fact, then the brits start to compare reporting culture in the airlines with state finances, politics, health system, bribe envelopes, lorry drivers etc.
In a few words not being able to support their view about aviation safety in Greece (which is at least european standard), they take this opportunity to attack Greece in general, which of course is indicative of their arrogant culture. My dear brit friends, some indeed offensive posts of greeks are only answers to your initial unacceptable ones which were off topic in the first place.

And by the way is this an aviation phorum? And where are the mods?

aristoclis,

My original point (and I repeat ad nauseum that I'm not attacking Greece) was about some of the comparisons between the entrenched attitudes within Olympic and Greece in general. In short, Olympic has gone out of business before and faces repeating its mistakes.

Examples off the top of my head could be low number of CDAs flown into ATH and the associated fuel penalty, the glut of ground staff (a team of cleaners boarding on every turnaround) the number aircraft not fully utilised on a working day. I'm not saying for a second that OAL should try and be Ryanair, in fact that's a horrifying idea given the excellent service I receive as a passenger, but the level of waste was unacceptable for a public company and is even more so now Marfin control the purse strings.

I would very much like to see Olympic thrive, particularly given the number of friends I have on either side of the flight deck door fearing for their jobs. There have been many successful agencies ready to help Olympic (much as Flybe can irritate me, they are a money making machine) but their advice has been rebuffed with the twin get out clauses of 'we always did it this way in the old Olympic' and 'this is Greece' (asta na pane to use my limited Greek!).

These are not attacks on anyone's personal capabilities and I do wish people would stop taking them so personally. Possibly as an 'arrogant Brit', my ego is somewhat more fortified. I'd still be glad to debate further over a beer when I come back for the PAO vs Barcelona game.

When talking about flight safety culture in Greece, two strong memories sping to mind...

The numerous "Cancel IFR" calls from traffics departing ATH to the islands, very safe indeed as they then lost any sort of protection provided by ATC.

The second...the story of this F/O calling "Go Around" three times, just to be acknowledge by the greek captain with a loud "Sh*t up!". Not word to mouth, I actually met this F/O.

So guys don't be too quick when mentionning caves and all the rest of it...