That is true, LIFO in and of itself is not illegal as criteria for selection. However “as the sole measure of selection it’s legally unsafe”. Quoted direct but not verbatim from the lawyers sorting out the Flybe mess in 2013.

I think some here are missing the point.

LIFO may well be acceptable, but in BA's case consider:

1. Is it advisable to make redundant, and replace, a cheap junior A320 FO with a senior A380/747 FO (who's role has become redundant)?

2. Will BA want to incur the cost of re-training a senior B747/A380 FO into the position of an already trained a ready to go cheap junior A320 FO. Why would they want to incur ANY cost when they're haemorrhaging cash?

3. As this situation is such an unknown, will BA want to get rid of a load of cheap junior, ready to go (other than a recency sim) A320 FO's and have a pool of 747/A380 senior FO's waiting round to be go through a 4-6 week training course with aircraft unnecessarily sitting on the ground?

I mention A320 above because that's where most of the junior guys start. BA is a corporate animal. I'm sure it wouldn't bat an eye at having to make some brutal decisions over the coming months. People say BA have never made pilot redundancies - problem is, this is a very different BA. As much as this situation is hurting BA I'm also sure they're looking at ways to manipulate it to their advantage.

I sincerely hope BA keeps everybody employed but there are difficult days coming.

Good luck to you Virgins too 🤞

Present BA MSL shows numbers to 4469 and MPE,manpower equivalent heads approx 4000
Planned recruitment 2020 was 300, 2021 250.
Part offered to All now.
natural wastage 1%
Retirements and comorbity considerations some more
Unpaid leave possible as has been done before in 80s
380 Pilots will most likely transfer to 350,4 more deliveries till year end total 9
744 pilots will have to sit it out until course available.
Mckinsey report this weak forecasting return to previous levels in LH will take six Quarters

Its not quite that black and white. Note the 'Unfair Selection' section. I'd imagine seniority at BA / Virgin is so highly correlated with age that it could be argued to be the same thing.

I also agree with the above posters. Even if it was legal, I see no business case for the company to use LIFO and the unions have no power at this time to intervene.

I really do not think that compulsory redundancy will be required at BA and don't understand why some people keep raising it, particularly on a Virgin thread.

BA's redundancy policy has been updated over the years, the last time in 2015, 9 years after age discrimination legislation came into force. Seniority rules everything at BA, it is not dependent upon age, there are relatively young senior LH P1s and old junior P2s. Joining BA is always a very long term bet. MOA K.11 clearly specifies LIFO as the general principle to be applied if redundancies are required.

I personally believe that an effective treatment for the virus will be found soon. A vaccine may be far away, but much improved treatment needn't be. Confidence will be restored if people know the likelihood of passing away from the virus is very very small.

Let’s put a lid on this. It will only escalate to an argument with no benefit. BA will do as it sees fit. Virgin will do the same. Extraordinary times will mean the past is a unreliable reference for the present. Let’s wait and see, once we know more hopefully we can come together to look out for each other.

Let’s be honest here. Generally Speaking, the pilots most vociferously against LIFO are the very ones who would benefit the most if it were not applied. Typically they make up the bottom 20-30% of the pilot work force.

And those for it are on the wrong (usually older so should have known better) fleet.

You mean the majority of pilots?

exactly, also making people redundant from the top costs much more than someone with less time in the company. Less than 2 years and they dont have to pay redundancy.
good luck to all.

Mr Kipling are you sure about that? Have you seen the pitiful state of a statutory redundancy payment in the U.K. recently? In the greater scheme of things it’s peanuts. The average BA PP24 LH Captain would be looking at a rough maximum of £16K as a payout. Not even including the company pension payment BA will have broken even on that redundancy payment in less than a month of payroll reduction. There’s huge savings to be made on an ongoing basis from chopping the most senior first. Not saying that’s going to happen just pointing out that saying it’s more expensive to sling out the most senior pilots is nonsense.

(I’m neither arguing for or against LIFO. If you were talking about a 20% reduction in VS or BA, I‘d actually probably be just about safe if it were applied. However I’m a realist and I know that a company in financial distress will do exactly what suits them and is the safest legally (ie slinging out those caught up in the process of closing a base or chopping a fleet) not abiding by gentlemen’s agreements).

There's no way BA will continue with the current pilot headcount as it stands. They'll be doing the numbers already and planning on a significantly smaller airline post this crisis than at the start of this year which means jobs lost sadly. Yes there'll be guys who go part-time, take VUL and early retirement but it won't be enough for the scale of this economic crisis. Anyhow, this is a Virgin Atlantic thread not BA.

I hear you Rex and I haven't looked at the figures, however, 16k is still more than 0 isnt it. I presume the bottom 20% aren't ready to do the jobs of the top 20% either?

LIFO on its own apparently isn't legal, however as someone else said it is if there is a mix of ages in the bottom 20% and lets face it at all of the bigger companies where people used to want to work they have a good spread of ages.

LIFO in BA isn’t a “gentleman’s agreement”. It’s written in the MOA. (k.11.). And yes, it was updated as recently as 2015.

And what do you think we’re going to be able to do about it if BA decide it will cost them too much money, 3Greens? Go on strike?

Anyway this has drifted far from VS so I apologise. My general point though which will apply to Virgin too is that - in the current climate - if anyone seriously thinks an airline is going to play nice and uphold agreements and start retraining pilots at massive cost whilst their financial house is burning down around them then I’d like some of what they’re smoking, especially as lockdown is seemingly going on forever.

Would this be the MOA that had a section of it suspended just a month or so ago when it didnt suit?

Exactly my thoughts. They'll do as they wish - a balance sheet with the strength of IAG let's hope CR is not reqd.

the very same one that was suspended in full agreement with BALPA, and as I’m sure you’re aware. It was just a small subsection of schedule F that is suspended. That being, to allow fleets in surplus to have a supplementary bid processed before PRIAM. But I’m sure you knew that..
I’m fact i understand as I was on the online meeting today that BA are very much inside with BALPA on all of this.
I think there will be some tough decisions ahead, but as it stands, I don’t see CR being on the cards at BA yet. I think we can find ways to keep everyone employed until it picks up again, which it will.
the MOA is our contract with our employer and without agreement, BA need to follow the law and any changes either agreed, or if it wishes to serve notice on any part it has to make a legal case and serve 90 days notice. There is legal precedent within our airline from 2008 when BA filed the HR1 for 140 MPE. I understand, from the chair of the BACC at the time, it was their intention to use qualified LIFO.
As a group we took some pain back then, and I’m sure we can do again.

Thanks for the additional info 3G. Interesting.

Nothing would suprise me at the moment, but I do hope you're correct.

the other point to consider is that anyone above about the age of 55 could be categorised as an at risk group. It may well be the best plan to send the over 55/60s off to furlough for a while whilst this blows through - there may even need to be temporary command upgrades required to cope. Looks like community immunity is the only way out of this pickle with no vaccine in sight. After Thalidomide the medical research profession will refuse to cut standards, unless it’s for
life saving treatment. That means that unless there is a controlled release put in place for this, the global economy won’t survive. The media coverage preparing populations for this has already started.