:hmm: I wondered that too....

Signed it.

All on the same post....impressive. :ugh:

It's 40 mins old and has over 100 signatures already.

Good idea and lets hope it get's the attention it deserves.

Any chance that it could also go to BALPA and IPA? Just to demosstrate solidarity about this topic?

192 already!

I am pretty sceptical about whether these petitions work or not, but I know if you don't sign then nothing will change...

You don't really expect BALPA to support it do you? They should have been on the case years ago but weren't...

What about to create one of this petition in each EU country ?

Nick 1

Hmmmm:suspect: Airlines have been doing this for how long:eek:??? some 20 years plus??? And now there's a petition to put a stop to this practice!?!?:eek: What a shock:ugh:!

The standards are so low these days...what caused it? Apathy probably, and a lack of serious proffesional ethics..

It's about profits....hiring kids, marshmellows, hire on attitude, hire abinitio, hire peeps that pay for training...anything to pay less, profit more...P2F isnt the only problem.

I used to think the aviation insurance companies or even the FAA would step in...the underwriters just jack up the premiums, the FAA is asleep at the wheel...like SEC, FDIC and the other stock market regulators....

You can choose to be part of this circus or not, I chose not to.

Johns

You cant even spell 'professional'.

What hope is there?

PPRuNe - pilot news network and debating forum, not a spelling/grammar critique. There are greater priorities than if someone can spell correctly because not everyone using this website has English as a first language, it still surprises me how many get on their high horse over this issue.

Yes, the petition wasn't composed in the most compelling or erudite way, it would have maybe been better to post a first draft on here and invite amendments. However if we hone in on this we miss the greater picture and give unfair criticism towards Karl for starting it.

What is more important is why he felt he had to do it in the first place and why it takes a lowly pilot off his own back to organise it when there are others with greater resources to do so.

I've signed it regardless of the argument he gave to support it. For me, if it is recognised and investigated by the politicians/public then we as a group can re-write a better supporting statement, this is the first step to gain better and wider recognition outside our industry.

I'd asked my friends and family to sign it as it should be remembered its not limited to pilots or wanabee's, its for anyone affected and don't like the trend our industry is moving towards.

All very well signing this crap, and moaning abouit p2f, well if you don't want p2f and want a superiour person instead than I would expect the english to be rather good.., and should their not be a selection process as well so we can decide whom shall use the english language, If you no inglish shut up.

some of you guys are much the same as white supremists, one whom rightly was hacked to pieces in South Africa, may more follow.

pilot999
 

I'm not sure what you mean.... I'm prpbably not the only one.

Ahh, I suspect the old "posting under the influence"...

I shall immediately retire to the drawing board devising a cunning alco-lock for desktops and laptops alike. I know such a thing would have saved me some embarrassment a couple of times. Would it be a huge financial success shall I, without delay, retire from the aviation industry.

Just signed it. Come on guys and gals - stop bickering, no one else is going to do anything about it. Forget BALPA and the IPA - its down to us.

Europetition
 

What about to create one of this petition in each EU country? :ok:

-The European Parliament Petitions Committee has an active online petition submission website and the Lisbon Treaty introduces Citizens’ Initiatives, whereby citizens will be able to call on the Commission to bring forward new policy proposals.

We should try to get this pay2fly scheme banned in the EU! :E

I think it is supremely ironic that, as I write this, I am looking at a headline ad for 300 hour and 500 hour F/O line training, not more than 1 inch above the reply box.
Oh dear, this could be an uphill battle.

" All very well signing this crap, and moaning abouit p2f, well if you don't want p2f and want a superiour person instead than I would expect the english to be rather good.., "

Unlike yours

"some of you guys are much the same as white supremists, one whom rightly was hacked to pieces in South Africa, may more follow"


BING! knob alert!

Did you happen on here by accident whilst trying to find the Guardian comments site?



Bravo for getting this petition going. About time something was done seeing as our union is determined to stick its fingers in its collective ears and shout "No I can't hear anything Na na na na ....."

The fastest way to stop this would have been a total, immediate and ongoing withdrawal of labour until the whole thing was abandoned. Instead it will take an accident or serious incident. We never learn.

Best of luck.

Perhaps you should review your own spelling, grammar and punctuation!

Oh dear, it seems that chocolate IS toxic and some on here have been piggies with those Cadbury's cream eggs :yuk:


FFS, who gives a monkeys if anyone can reed or rite

Of much more relevance / concern

WHY was it left to this well meaning individual to get the ball rolling with a petition

WHY didn't BALPA (or perhaps I should start saying BLAPA like dear ol Leo HC - wherever he has gone, what did he mean :rolleyes: BLA BLA BLA Pilots Union perchance ? maybe he wasn't so far wrong :hmm: ) take some action many moons before this individual decided that he , and we, should stand up and be counted. If this isn't something that 1% of your salary shouldn't be spent eradicating what is ? ?

Or, he says only slightly cynically, is it the fact that it doesn't (directly) affect BA . . . . . Yet :ooh:

Nothing less than a total loss of credibility for BALPA on this one. I imagine NSF will remind us all what splendid hard working chaps the Easy CC are, and I don't doubt it for a moment. If however, the dead wood in head office are content to sit back and let this happen (nay accept advertising revenue no less) where is their credibility in their intention to be your industrial representation ? crashed & burned IMHO.

Happy Easter

CaptPS..

:D

Has anyone thought about creating a group on Facebook about this to draw attention to it? Possibly including the petition link also?

From previous problems/situations people have faced they have been able to reach a MASSIVE audience through the means of a group on Facebook, these groups can spread like wildfire and reach thousands of people in a matter of hours!
:ok:

There's a website coming soon.........then if you can promote it via FB, tweeting and any other social net-workng site, that would be great.

previuosly stated dont bother checking my grammar:ugh:

At least 20 more signed since midweek.

peaked yet?

Just to remind for a second time, you don't have to be a pilot or directly affected by P2F to sign the petition, anyone can sign it. My granny and girlfriends are proud card carrying rebels too now.

Anyway its closed until after the election.

Wow - just sitting here Reading skyport paper and balpa aparently have pay to fly in it's manifesto that it is lobbying to mp's. There is a whole 4 lines on the matter on page 5!

Any one else spotted that a certain Mr J. C. has signed the petition as well!!!

Think that just might have been a "proxy vote" ;) :D

UAV689,



In support of or in opposition to PTF? Dont have Skyport to hand....

haha in opposition to it!

the wording was (off the top of my head I have binned it now) something along the lines off - we are opposed to the exploitation of newly qualified pilots, whereby some airlines are forcing them to pay up to £34000 to continue their training with an airline.

Was not really clear if they opposed paying for TR or P2F, I am guessing the latter as paying for TR has been going on a while now.

Looks like it could finally be on their radar.

Could be. If someone were to send the peitition to them then it would give them an additional little jolt as well as ammunition to support their case on a wider basis.

Do we know how many professional pilots are employed in the UK and what sort of percentage this petition is likely to represent? I'm not talking about pilots " qualified" but those actually working. If we have say 3000 and only 300 sign, could they argue only 10% are against PTF.. just a thought. Looking at the list of names, there are some strange ones, or very cruel parents!

I've read the petition and I've read most of the posts on here about said petition. I am against pay to fly but I cannot sign. It's badly worded (no I'm not bothered about spelling and/or grammar) and it confuses two completely separate issues. Pay to fly is indeed a blight on the industry but you can't tar all low houred pilots with the same brush.

The petition implies all low houred pilots are pay to fly (which obviously they're not) and all low houred pilots need constant babysitting. Yes being a line trainer is hard work with a newbie (and no im not one just a lowly fo) but that's why you're a line trainer.

Everyone on my original course were low houred and all of us (eventually) went as low houred pilots into main airlines. Most were sponsored. However surely your financial abilities have nothing to do with your flying skills.

Yes pay to fly is bad for our industry. But being low houred (or being a p2f'er
for that matter) does not mean you're a bad pilot.

I am against pay to fly but I will not shun someone who's done it.

I am against pay to fly but not low hours pilots flying.

Remove this petition and rewrite one focussing solely on p2f. Confusing the 2 issues will give all airline managers who use p2f a chance to say 'well safety's never been compromised just look at our record etc etc.'

studi,

Thanks :ok: you have summed it up better than any of us native English speakers seem to have managed to do so far.

Sums it all up nicely... :ok:

Billiantly exposed :D:D:D

That is an effect of PTF that has a measurable impact of safety, isn't it?

With such programs, those airlines are effectively reducing the safety of their flights, and they are doing it to make money.

I am absolutely sure that this practice is simply illegal, only it will take good lawyers to stop it. Better that websites.

Very well put Studi!

(NSF, did you read Studi's post?)

Spot on, and besides the obvious safety issue of P2F preventing to raise the level of experience in an airline, it also nullifies the value of this experience that a cadet was hoping to climb the career ladder with, as experience excludes one from getting an interview for any real (paying!) job. How ironic!

It's a zero sum game: designed to flood the market with even more pilots in order to drive down T&C's.

The combined impact on safety and T&C's should have the CAA and unions woken up by now, but as usual, the silence is deafening...

Maybe we could launch a service like this:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/seat_selection.png

EpsilonVaz...

Cant work out whether you are a critic of P2F or a supporter. I think possibly you are the latter, despite what your comic strip post suggests.

Reading your threads it seems you currently 'work' for ez, but is that as a parc contract FO or as an employee on full benefits and salary?