Not so, UK citizens can sign as ex-pats...:ok:

Arh. arwsome , all done and dusted. whats next on the agenda. maybe get it sorted after dinner.

Yep this is really going to fix it... not. Do you seriously think the government is going to instruct the airlines in how to conduct their business? Nnnnnoooo... not really.

Anyway I signed it... FWIW...

I noted earlier on someone asked for other incidents attributed/partially attributed to P2F schemes.

Here's one;

http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/tempfiles/20...65521moptc.pdf

Is this def a P2F scheme? Does this operator still use them?

I honestly don't know if they still use it, but at the time it was a CTC-scheme which I always thought was some sort of P2F deal. I was only there for a limited time and never actually looked in to it in great detail but I know for a fact that the trainers, especially on the FBW-fleet weren't too impressed with the extra workload generated by this scheme. And it ended up costing the carrier big time with one of the A321's in the shop for some 8 weeks.

Signed
 

Expat now happy to work in ME due to decent paid F/O positions in UK becoming like rocking horse S**t

Signed happily

flyerdad

Sad fact is that most UK airlines would be delighted to pay First Officers no more than 20k a year and that people would be queueing up to accept contracts on those terms.

Apologies if this has already been raised since I haven't read through all 5 pages of this thread.

Pay to fly and all its insidious variants is one of the consequences of the deregulation of markets generally and the airline market in particular, compounded by the current government's enthusiasm for never-ending expansion of air transport. Ryanair is now so big that it has massive market power. It can bully airports into paying them to bring services in. It can bully aircraft manufacturers into selling aircraft at prices way below what others pay. It can dominate the pilot recruitment market. And it can set the terms for the rest of the airline market. The BA cabin crew dispute is one of many consequences of the power of the lo-cos.

I applaud the efforts of all of you who are engaging No.10, BALPA etc to try to stop the "cancer of P2F". But what's also required is a wider view - do we want a society where these kinds of employment terms and conditions spread to more and more sectors of the economy? I do hope all of you who are concerned about this will think this through when considering who to vote for at the coming election.

NS

found this on facebook
 

Petition to number 10 to stop pay to fly. Yes, i know, before this starts a debate. sign it or dont.

Petition to: stop airlines receiving payment from pilots in return for flying. | Number10.gov.uk

Signed. Can a copy be sent to BALPA HQ in the hope that it might encourage a bit more activity there? Good effort :ok::ok:

When you boil the issue down it is an economic problem. Airlines do not really want to set up any more training than is necessary, it diverts focus from the main objective, flying airplanes for profit.

The fact of the matter is that economics drives the airline industry. In the cut-throat competition, the customer has become accustomed to fares that are very much cheaper, relative to incomes, than they were in the 1960s. Probably about 1/10th what they used to be.

This undoubtedly led to massive increases in air travel, and the unwashed masses began to travel in great numbers. This increased airline jobs, aircraft sales etc, etc,
But it came at a price, instability. Air travel has become very dependent on the disposable income of the masses. Boom and recession govern this.

When empty aircraft fly around, or sit on the ground, panic sets in, and down go the fares again. The masses become used to fire-sale fares, and refuse (or are unable) to pay the real fares needed to keep "proper" :E airlines alive.

There are not many cost inputs that airlines can control, except employee costs. So the employees are being asked to fund ever cheaper fares, so that their employers can afford to compete with the bottom feeders. This drives T&Cs down and leads to all manner of P2F type schemes.

Fix the basic economics and the P2F schemes are just unnecessary hassles.

Problem is, the free market will eventually drive costs (=T&Cs) down to where professional flying will end up going to the lowest bidders. The insurance industry will determine what the acceptable level of risk will be. Sad but true.:hmm:

From the CTC website.........


but probably not because we have another muppet with £50k to burn to replace you

In the mean time all costs of training so far will be paid for by the candidate. And the really clever part........ they are paying you back £1,000 a month which is part of the money you have given them for the training costs in the first place allegedly.

There used to be a company in the USA which fortunately is now no longer. They used to offer an ab initio CPL/IR for $19,990. They used to advertise "guaranteed employment as a flight instructor Program" for $38,000. When you looked at their other courses, the CFI, CFII and MEI courses totalled $5,000 with $1,000 in exam fees. They then paid a salary of $1,000 per month for approximately 12 months. They used to take all your money from you upfront and then pay it back as a salary for being a flight instructor, unless they went bust first then you got cock all back!!!

Striking similarities........ but then again, it might only be pure coincidence and it might be that P2F doesnt really exist :ugh:

Hi all,

I think the petition is a great idea - would it be worth forwarding it to friends and family as well, explaining the flight safety issue? After all they are the fare paying public who are being exposed to this when they buy a ticket!

Shall we get some decent momentum behind this for a change instead of burying out heads in the sand and harping on about how lucky we are to be employed?! :ok: I agree the market has changed and I am all for low cost travel, but in my opinion these schemes are a step too far.

As a side point please don't forget that unions such as BALPA are only as good as the members in them - if things are to change drastically then members must be prepared to act drastically. The main problem here is that nobody wants the temporary pain for a long term gain. Typical UK short-termist attitude - which is exactly the attitude that has lead us to this point by airline management and the people paying to fly a shiny jet :mad:. Nothing will change if we don't get off our a$$es and dig our heels in. It is never too late to start!

Regards

KD

Signed :ok::ok:

Petition to: stop airlines receiving payment from pilots in return for flying. | Number10.gov.uk

Gonna stick a link on my facebook, that's always good for spreading things like wild fire, which is what this petition needs......

Signed.

Just a possibly silly question which I can't answer myself from the thread: In a P2F scheme which buys a TR and 300? hours, are all the 300? line hours flown as training with a LTC or is the guy released to the line after a predetermined number of sectors and final line ck?

From some of the guys I know who done this scheme they flew about 100 hours with a LTC then got released on line.

I always thought the 'right stuff' as quoted from CTC had more to do with the Mercury Astronauts and a bunch of low-hour airline pilots !

The petition to stop Pay-to-fly 'schemes'...
 

Some of you may not know about this petition so i thought it would be a good idea to post a link on a devoted thread to the subject. Perhaps if enough of us sign the official petition below the government might act to stop this exploitation of pilots!

Petition to: stop airlines receiving payment from pilots in return for flying. | Number10.gov.uk

Aren't they the same?

Whilst I agree the pay to fly schemes (started in the main, by European LCC's) are a cancer in our midst I think it is wrong to try and have this stopped.

Where do you draw the line? At paying for your license? paying to hour you hours? I/R? What about a person working for low wages, albeit at or above the legal minimum, are you going to petition against that?

There is snobbery in the aviation world at least in the UK, where a self sponsored person, is viewed the same as a pedophile in a school yard, by individuals who were sponsored by BA, for E.G.

I will not sign this petition as I think if there was a ban put in place, that is just another rule for the office walla's to police. For goodness sake, haven't we got enough rules and regulations without another. This is a "free" society, is it not? Those of you that say it is, then let's try and keep it free. Maybe you guys want a total nanny state.

I totally disagree with PTF schemes, however this petition is not that well worded, and makes some allegations about safety that I am not sure can be substantiated. As a result I'm afraid I don't feel I can put my name to it.

I agree we must be a free society.
in this case tell me why we can not fly an airliner with a private license only?
what's the need of a commercial license?

free society???

tell that to the 3000+ hr pilots on the dole at the moment.

This is about stopping airlines charging First Officers to work for them. Take your left wing softy views elsewhere and see what is important without trying to be "overly clever" about this.

I have signed it!!!!

Signed
 

I have signed it. You can argue the toss all you like but while I'm prepared to accept having to pay for my training up to the point I am employed, personally after that I feel it is incumbent upon my employer to show some faith and pay for my type rating and line training secured with a bond if required.

When you join a firm as a machine operator making widgets in a factory they pay to train you to operate their particular machinery, they also provide you with the protective clothing/uniform to do the job, I don't see why flying is any different.

For me there's a moral black and white here and the line in the sand is quite clear. Go over the line and you're a morally bankrupt organisation.

Desk-pilot

I've signed it and was glad to do so :ok:

Its about time that we stopped the constant degredation of our profession, I've been flying commercially for over 20 years and can't believe how we've let things get SO bad..........:eek:

Aerofoil to quote your petition, So if you just finish training and are offered a job with a paid type rating etc.... you are safer? Why, there is no difference in two low hour pilots?

When you undertake line training, you have a safety pilot, until the Training Captain feels the time is right for you to be released to fly with out one.

I think this is great, lets ban ALL pilots under 1500 hours total from getting a multi pilot type rating, then there will be more jobs. So where do I sign????:ok::ok::ok:

if airlines stops to ask for 500h or 1000h on jet before to be hired, maybe people will get a job?

if some airlines have problems now, it's their problems.

BA by example, it' s impossible to fly for them.Very hard to enter(psycho test,...)...where do you think guys go?

answer: they pay to fly for a LCC

Then BA claims they have some problems, they can not compete with the cheap flight tickets of Easyjet and Ryanair??

eh! BA , remember, you got your chance to hire fresh pilots. you told them " sorry, you are not been accepted, good luck to you "

these pilots now say " sorry BA, I will pay a LCC to fly, and my company will kick you a$# good luck to you to deal with your Onion :E"

BA? Guilty !!!

Some interesting names on the list , EC in particular, the guitar God no way, just a namesake I guess. maybe Rod stewart next.

Dont worry I will not be wasting my time signing a useless peace of $hit. Tell a real cancer patient that p2f is a cancer and I would back up whatever he did to all of you on the list.:ok: or better still have a dose of real cancer, good luck with the treatment . survival rate of 1 week I guess:)

There would be a very easy and effective way to stop P2F I guess... that is wannabes not to sign up for any of the schemes.
But that would require common sense I guess, and perhaps that's not one of the qualities of the airline pilot of the future?

Agreed, wannabes stop signing up for pay to fly, job done. The petition reads like it has been written by a buffoon.

Thats hor$hit.

It has been written by a buffoon.

I would be more worried if that buffon is flying rather than a p2f with a line trainer. i admit my writing is crap. and I dont bother reading what I have typed, but then I did not right that crap. even I can manage better than that, she was probaly a jour:Dno or failed cadet.:eek:

Personally, it doesn't matter how its been written. It is highlighting a problem and the person starting the petition obviously feels strong enough to do something about it and good for them. Furthermore, it seems it is achieving its aim - we are commenting and debating P2F.

I have no idea whether any of these government petitions ever work or whether they are an easy way of appeasing the masses. Assuming they do work I would imagine that if enough of a consensus is reached then something may be done about it. Only then it would be re-worded by those with more knowledge of how to present the argument and pass it into law or whatever is required.

I understand what is meant, I aim against P2F and have signed accordingly.

The only important thing, is not how well it has been written, but the fact that an individual was forced to highlight the problem, rather than this coming from BALPA.

If you want to winge about something, that is a more (de)pressing issue than the instigators grammatical competence. :=

Paying to fly...So what's the point of getting your commercial pilot license? The chief pilot of my flight school told us in ground school, "Boys, now you are commercial pilots, don't you EVER pay for another hour of flight time again!". I can't help but wonder if the people defending P2F schemes are the ones who have already coughed up the dough.
There was a P2F scheme that was popular in the United States a year or two ago. The outfit was called Gulfstream. These guys came to Sanford Airport in Florida and had a presentation complete with sodas, pizza and a shiny(kinda) Beech 1900. The Captain was very arrogant and told the prospective customers that flight instructing was a waste of time and that their instructors would be looking up at this turbine airliner while doing slow flight at 3000 ft. All those guys that signed up for the scheme are now jobless, $30,000 more in debt and don't have enough hours for their ATP's.
Additionally, 4 out of 5 of the last pilot error induced airline crashes in the US have been at the hands of graduates from the above program. I may have looked up at those Beech's for a few hundred hours but the experience I gained has been invaluable and I have more hours in my logbook and more money in my pocket. I did and still do look down on those individuals who took what I consider the easy way out by paying for their ME time at P2F schemes. And for the most part they were the people that couldn't hack CFI training or just generally lazy. Not saying that every country has the options that we do in the US but when there's a will, there's a way. If we stop paying to fly to get to heavy equipment more quickly, they'll start paying us TO fly which is why we signed up for this job in the first place, isn't it?

Chaps, don't let you personal feelings cloud your judgement.

Fair enough you have created a petition, but give it a chance with a congruent explanation and good grammar.

It is all about credibility - in my opinion your petition sounds like a bunch of whining bitches and a knee-jerk reaction.

Besides you will not be able to change a thing let alone have the PM take notice.

Do what I am doing and get out.

Please think about signing
 

Who's the joker who put Jonathan Curd's name on it, eh?