Easy Switzerland DEC conditions
 

thehighflyer, when you have any up to date details on these improved Ts & Cs would you be so kind as to share them with everybody? The original conditions seem extremely poor....

Hi

Dont forget that in all probability, every out of work 320 Capt are sending their CV's directly to the airlines as well as to contract agencies so management will have a pretty good idea of how many pilots there are out there looking for a job and will then be able to price the contract accordingly, knowing that one pilot is absolutely prepared to shaft another one for the sake of a job. So if they know there are say, 80 A320 Capts looking for work and they need 10 for a contract period, they will offer the money that they think 8 will go for and knowing the desparate circumstances some find themselves in, that could be £4,000 a month with no benefits. After all, £4,000 is better than nowt to some.

And given that some in the airline have convinced themselves that they are all right and their T's and C's wont be affected.......... why should they fight for those that they deem to be beneath them? Its spineless, but sadly airline pilots are never tested for the rigidity of their vertebrae and management know it. But then again, management yukspeak, that those in senior positions seem to adopt when they want to be totally apathetic towards T's and C's claim its "market forces"!!!!!!!

Good luck and God Bless

GW

Do these people think that Captains can't add up?
 

Unbelieveable really, but then again, to be expected I guess.

So, the "improved" terms are:

8500 CHF per month = 5180 GBP ( x 12 months 62160 GBP per YEAR basic.... which is 20000 GBP less than an emplyed easy UK Captain earns.)

Sector pay at the standard easyJet rate.

1500 CHF per month accommodation & transport allowance (914 GBP per month).


AND, they seem to have removed the monthly bonus for completing the contract.

So, all in all, there is no improvement.

What a joke. They are laughing at us.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I hope everyone ignores this shocking deal.

I am up for pretty-well any fight to stop this erosion. The employment of contract captains is simply not acceptable anywhere in easyJet. We effectively now have it at both easyJet companies - CTC provide summer contract captains from their own trainers. I was most disappointed to discover that we are employing CTC pilots as Line Trainers too - that simply is robbing an easyJet Captain of a Training Captain's job. The bottom line is that this is a line too far for me. All I have to do is receive the strike papers in the post and my answer will be yes. The problem is that there are so many battles out there to be fought that it makes it almost impossible to fight them all. This one, however, has to be at the top of our list.

OK so the deductions required by the Swiss government will affect the net pay of these employees, but might I just remind folk that these employees could find accommodation just over the border in France - in the St Louis/Huningue area for a start - and therefore pay less than in Switzerland.

However, that 'little gleam of hope' does not remove the fact that the amount of pay for the conditions of employment (and the responsibility that the job requires), is unrealistic in terms of everyday living and quality of life.

Here we go

Finally it's reached the "its affecting ME now" level so lets get the whole airline out on strike to save ME

Perhaps if you had a spine and stood up to the erosion of Co-Pilot T's & C's by ACTIVELY refusing to train P2F people, this apparent erosion of Capt's T's & C's would never have got this far.

There are simply much bigger battles to fight, specifically, those that affect safety, safety of the travelling public.......... like eliminating P2F in your company and getting the experienced Co-Pilots off the dole and back in the flight deck.

Take a number and join the queue seems pretty apt!!!!!

[QUOTE]Finally it's reached the "its affecting ME now" level so lets get the whole airline out on strike to save ME

Perhaps if you had a spine and stood up to the erosion of Co-Pilot T's & C's by ACTIVELY refusing to train P2F people, this apparent erosion of Capt's T's & C's would never have got this far.[QUOTE]
:D

Spot on - I'm alright jack (oh, until it affects me) :rolleyes:

Strike me in/out?
 

NSF said "All I have to do is receive the strike papers in the post and my answer will be yes"

There's the problem! The only way you'll rx any strike papers is if you send them to yourself and your colleagues.


EZY has a CTC/P2F addiction and it is now starting to hit the Line Captains......

Norman,

CTC Trainers.

So what is the mood in the training department about this? Are your colleagues accepting this willingly or indifferent? Are any trainers prepared to quit over this? I doubt it. How many trainers are Balpa members? 40%? 50%? I doubt that as well. No body in Balpa is suggesting that we strike over P2F cadets when there are experienced F/O's on the dole so why should they go to war over this?

Balpa are trying to fight too many battles on too many fronts and if the company gets fed up they will just go to 90 day consultation for whatever reason......because they can.

Nothing will change until either the market does or senior employees at the big bases decide to get their reps fired up.

I don't see any evidence that things are about to change soon and this is not so much "I'm alright Jack" more a case of resignation and dare I say it -ignorance.

Binder

Is it not just wonderful to see NSF starting to get uncomfortable?

Luckily for him, BALPA will be along in a trice to solve the problem.

So whats BALPA doing about it, you have BALPA in EZ.. and to coin an well worn phrase.. "You are BALPA, BALPA is you" :hmm:

A friend in easyJet recently said to me... the attitude on the Orange street nowadays is 'If you don't like it... then f*%k off'! Very sad to see.....

Well People

This is why you get the MOL's of this world......... the bloody staff are wimpy, spineless, pathetic whingers who believe that somehow contributing to this forum is like taking action. Send me the papers and ill strike. Its hardly Tsun Siu the art of war is it. Can you imagine FM Montgomerie in the 2nd World War....... ooooh come over here campers and lets have a chat and a bicuit. Hardly a rallying cry.

You have yourselves to blame.

Ok let me just repeat that for those that don't like it............. IM NOT SORRY, YOU HAVE YOURSELVES TO BLAME!

And then like a pathetic plea from a sinking ship......... "please lets go on strike because now MY terms and conditions are being affected". Didn't give a s**t when it was someone else but now its ME so help!!!!! And this from a moron that bangs on about BALPA. BALPA is only as good as its membership he says. Well BALPA aint some kind of exclusive club for you. They are there to look out for every level. If you don't have the gonads to support your less well off colleagues, you are failing BALPA, which in turn translates to you are failing yourself.

DEMORALISED CAPTAINS FLYING WITH P2F CANDIDATES IN THE SAME FLIGHT DECK DOES NOT MAKE FOR A SAFE ENVIRONMENT.

Your company is an accident waiting to happen.

The true tragedy in all of this is the failure to realise that its the spineless employees that have allowed the degradation of the T's & C's, not a strong a successful management team that despite the downturn still makes profits......... which is why its there..... to make money....... not keep you in silk boxer shorts!

stansdead
 

I beg to differ. The pay PAS is offering is better that certain company in the east is willing to pay after the Swiss tax is imposed on the peons. Thanks for pointing me to their (PAS) way, as if it was not for this thread I would have remaind ignorant of the offer. I am sure to apply for a position as soon as I get more details from them.

Edited for beer infused, rough all night out comments that where not deserved by Stansdead. Apologies

Global Warrior - you are simply talking utter rubbish. You have no idea what is going on or not at easyJet as you do not work there. You have failed to grasp significant details of the contract system there and have completely misrepresented what little you do understand. No one is saying they like the current FO deal - it is, however, NOT pay-to-fly and you seem unable to grasp that. There are NOT countless demoralised captains at easyJet flying with p2f candidates. That seems to be impossible for you to take on board, but that is the way it is.

I have been completely honest in my posts over the years about what is good and what is bad at easyJet. There are significant aspects of our current contracts and work practices that I totally disagree with. The 2 specific items that I would take issue with are contract captains and the current deal for new First Officers. Both these issues are worth striking over, and if invited to vote on the issue, I would vote for industrial action. However, the characterisation of the current situation at easyJet by you and others is increasingly ludicrous and does not help our cause one bit. It comes across as an irrational rant, which is exactly what it is. The idea that easyJet aircraft are waiting to fall out the sky due to the presence of hacked-off captains and p2f FOs is just so much hogwash. I am not even sure that Global Warrior is a pilot - he may just be interested SLF, judging by his limited knowledge of what is going on. He is, of course, entitled to his own view, but it would help if these opinions had some basis in fact.

Wizzkid,

Good for you. Off you go then.

What will you do with all your spare money when the 5 month contract ends? Wizz won't take you back. And there's nothing else in Europe.

My whole point is that for a short term contract, the terms are very poor. But, you obviously don't think so. Each to their own.

Let me be straight about this: I don't care less about joining as a contract DEC in somewhere, even God forbid, the hallowed easyJet. The business has changed forever in this recession and I will look after number one. BUT only for a commensurate wage next to other pilots in that airline.... And only on terms that reflect the contract length.

I'm glad you are aware of the contract now I started this thread. I don't know why you attacked me though?

Good luck. If you need a calculator to see the truth in my figures, feel free to ask. I will send you one.

Too-Easy Jet.
 

Norman, old thing, I'll have to call you on that one. Resorting to finger pointing and claiming "he's not even a pilot" is a step too far against poor old Global Warrior. Anyone who reckons he's got 12,500 hours P1 on jets at 42 must have flown his arse off, so give the poor chap a break, would you?

Besides, he has a point. Among vocational occupations such as ours, there simply is no collective responsibility and that is the reason why BLAPA and similarly malicious organisations continue to exploit the decency and loyalty to be found at the core of a precious few people, Norman. People such as you.

Your redoubtable support of BLAPA over the years is, I'm reluctant to admit, admirable. But like all good spaniels, after placing slobbery slippers at the feet of your master for so long, isn't it reasonable to expect something more satisfying than a boot in the balls for your trouble?

Global Warrior didn't mean for this little gem to apply to those further up the tree and beyond Orange shores, but of course it does and is the principal reason why BLAPA's day in the sun is over. Where is the BA outrage over the appalling erosion of T&C (sic) at Easyjet? Where are the picket lines of uniformed Barons outside the architectural monstrosity that is Terminal 5? Nowhere, that's where. That's right, Norman, they don't give a ****. Quelle surprise!!!

Were you serious about actually doing something about what you see as the erosion of terms and conditions at Easyjet, or whatever it might be called from June, you'd start your own in-house organisation. That would most certainly get their attention. Who knows, Norman, you might actually achieve something!

Tread carefully though, old friend. With a new CEO from that pinko rag The Guardian, and a prickly female to boot, the feathers are bound to fly.

NSF........ i have asked you previously to explain how these people are different. Your company, due to the CRUD TRAINING COMPANY has been instrumental in even allowing P2F to exist. If the candidates that are there now are from the pool of "pilots" that are actually P2F "cadets" who have been languishing on the dole for the past 8 months......... thats still P2F products you are flying with........ even though they have been offered a package that would make a burger chef at Mac Donalds walk out.

You might have your disagreements with whats going on with your employer but you only actually mentioned going on strike when it affected you

BALPA must be really happy to have a membership that so wantonly announces under what circumstances its membership will stand behind it....... "its now affecting me.........help!"

I have been flying since i was 18. I have loved every minute of it my first solo was on 26/3/86, in an OATS Tomahawk. I was a "self-improver". Since then i have flown Cargo, Corporate, Presidential, on demand charter, Airlines and got so p****d of with whinging whining pilots that i gave up the airline thing. Im in a really happy place, working along side some of the very best "people" i have ever been around. I am their boss. There is a mutual respect from the lowest rung of the ladder to the highest. Everyone is happy.

Every company could be the same, except for one denominating factor........the Pilots that populate the flight deck. Your quote above is exactly why your employers are eroding your T's & C's......... because until it affects you personally, you're not interested............ where as in our company its "does this affect the company?" If you are not company people, you have nothing to attach any allegiance to, except yourself. And therefore you wont do anything about any erosion of T's & C's until it affects you personally and so your union, my union as well by the way, hears about stuff going on in the airline but because of the total apathy of its members, is powerless to do anything. Last time i checked, BALPA didn't have a division that looks out for NSF!!!! You need to take those blinkers off, my friends. Its not all about you.

Come October 2011, i will have possessed a Professional Pilots Licence for 25 years. I feel privileged to have done so. My old man was a Pilot. We have over 50 years of combined aviation experience between us and i have a son, who one day may want to be a Pilot also.......... but its a different world and our profession is different now and my opinion is the reason it is different is because of the selfish, egotistical, spineless, apathetic, eunuchs that call themselves Pilots. Those that bitch and whinge about stuff but do nothing. Nothing, because they are individuals looking out for themselves. That is the true cancer of this once great profession....... not the tough talking, business people that are now the CEO's. You NSF, you do not stand up for the profession, you stand up for yourself. There are so many more like you. Its impossible to represent you. And this profession is all the worse for it.

And you know what, none of the erosions of your T's & C's affect me personally............ but they affect the profession and thats why i want to make a stand........ a stand against eroding this profession further..........maybe leave something behind that my children and yours may be proud to be a part of........... BUT as long as you people keep shooting the messenger rather than the message, its going to be a VERY difficult cause to fight. And my fight, right now is the P2F schemes because the only way to make this profession great again is to fix it from the bottom........... and like a pyramid, unless those at the top support those at the bottom, the bottom crumbles away and before you know it, the top is now the new bottom. As long as we have 5000 hour pilots sitting on the dole and 250 hour pilots sitting in the flight deck, things need changing.

This profession has survived as long as it has and newly qualified Pilots simply had to wait their turn. Not so long ago you needed 700 hours just to get a CPL in this country. Unless you did a fully approved course, you had to tow gliders, fly parachute aircraft, go to the states to build up hours or become a flight instructor to get those hours. Now people seem to think they have a God given right to buy themselves a job with 250 hours and there are certain individuals making themselves very wealthy selling that dream. BUT its dangerous. The US has just raised to 800 hours the minimum required to work for an air carrier. Are they so much worse in the US than here? Are they less capable? Or have they realised that there is an inherent danger in having newly qualified Piper Seneca Captains flying A320's. And because this has been countenanced by the selfish, egotistical, spineless, apathetic, eunuchs, this cancer will spread itself to the MIGHTY Left hand seat........"oh isn't that just beginning to happen?" Perhaps the future is there for all to see.

NSF whatever you do today, enjoy it, i will. I mean nothing personally. After all NSF is just a handle on a forum.

God Bless

GW

Think you hit the nail on the head there, the "straw that broke the camels back" (no not yours Leo) did have a slightly egocentric ring to it.
NSF's recent rumblings seem to have quitened down to virtual platitudes, indeed at times becoming almost defensive of the "Easy come Easy go" scandal.
Now we see a once erudite defender of what was right and wrong, somewhat decimated to become (on the face of it ) just another "I'm allright Jack" character.
Norm, I am a little dissapointed that it has taken this direct potential attack by Easy on YOU ( = ME ME ME ) for you to rediscover a little fire in your belly, as a minimum I hope this is the warning shot across your bows that alerts you to the fact that YOU are a future target of the total and utter cr@p your management have in store for ALL OF YOU, in the fullness of time.
Inhale deeply and smell that Nescafe Norm, it sure as hell ain't Illy :=

Hear hear! Very well spoken GW & captplaystation!

Finally some people (incl. NSF) are starting to see the light...

...Indeed, like many others who contribute to these forums banging on about "P2F", without knowing the ins-and-outs of the CTC FlexiCrew deal for the cadets, without giving much thought to what that recently clumsily-coined "P2F" term actually means, or without really knowing what they are talking about.

The CTC Cadets have paid for their training through the CTC programme, just like many others from years gone by who were given full-time contracts in the various associated airlines (including EZY). Now, instead, they are being asked to contribute towards the Airbus TR (effectively a semi-SSTR, if you like), when in the past it was fully subsidised. Once completed, they are employed as a contractor through CTC and PAID for their work. Yes, the pay is sh*te and the conditions are crap, but they are being paid. Essentially it's the same as Ryanair have been doing to low-houred guys with Brookfield for the last few years, so why the sudden incrimination of the ex-CTC guys at EZY when it had become a pretty much accepted practice on the blue-and-yellow side?

Nobody likes to see anyone paying to be in the right-hand seat, I deplore it as much as the next person, but I am sick to death of hearing the CTC Cadets, who are being PAID, tarred with the same brush as people who are PAYING. Sadly, it seems no matter how many times one points out this small technicality, it is drowned out by the masses of indignant people waving their arms decrying the advent of "P2F, P2F!!!" in an almost zombie-like fashion. So there is nothing else to do other than echo NSF's sentiments when he says to the likes of GW...

Night all.

Zippy
 

You say its "essentially" the same as the Ryanair guys on the Brookfield contract. The Ryanair guys on average coming through now are earning 3 to 4 k per month when line checked. 35 euros per hour during line training.
I believe the Easyjet guys joining now are not even earning close to that. Even in the winter months the average Brookfield pilot picks up 40 to 60 hours. The top rate as an f/o on the Brookfield contract at the moment is near 80 euros per hour.

I would'nt say it's the same deal money wise?

Would you agree?

Roughly how much are the Easyjet guys coming through at the moment earning?

Ummmmmmm helps if you read the thread before posting i guess :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Wait for it........ soon we are going to hear that now there are CTC Captains and ........ WORSE heaven forbid TRAINING CAPTAINS.....

its time to go on strike :ugh::ugh::ugh:

I have already declared my hand......... I want to help make this a better profession. I actively want to help undo all the shyte that through their neglect of the profession the selfish, egotistical, spineless, apathetic, eunuchs have allowed their employers to get away with.

Its the profession that Easyjet Training Captains and Easyjet Pilots (But All professional Pilots, not just those mentioned) represent that i am interested in. Not them as an individual unit. I have no beef with them personally but once they start spouting off like adolescents that its now affecting me so lets all rally behind me and save me........... you know there is a massive problem with those in the industry, that are allegedly BALPA members but somehow think BALPA is there to represent them as individuals. Theres no me in BALPA!!!

And for clarity's sake.... P2F.... P4T......semi SSTR.........BBC.....ITV.......whatever...... I use P2F because its easy (no pun intended). One of your employees actively makes money selling it and the professional Pilots community identify with it. There are Easy TC's who want to call it something else, who want a strict definition so it doesnt tar them. FINE call it what you want but to me..... GEAR DOWN, WHEELS DOWN, DANGLE THE DUNLOPS....... results in the same thing. P2F, P4T, semi-SSTR results in TWO things.......... INCREASE RISK TO THE TRAVELLING PUBLIC AND AN EROSION OF YOUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS and you have actively promoted the former and been totally apathetic to the latter...... an now its affecting individuals, (the me me's) they want BALPAS help.

This thread is titled easyjet. Having a Laugh and was originally started due to contract Captains, which in essence is about your T's&C's. If you want to bring this into the public forums rather than keeping it on your own, you have to be prepared for an opinion which is different to yours. The sooner you take your orange tinted glasses off you will see that there is a whole world out there....... and just maybe, its there on your side, but it wants a solution which is much bigger than just a solution for you.

Sleep well :-)

GW

This will stir up a whirlwind, but as a non pilot looking in, reading what some pilots 'think' they are worth, feel that I must make these comments.

Why does it seem that some pilots believe that the current market conditions do not apply to them, as stated there are many long hour captains sitting around un-employed as well as younger low hour pilots, and if YOU ran an airline and need a pilot and had the choice of a 5000 hr who will cost 8 - 10 grand a month, against a 250 - 300 hr pilot, costing 3 - 4 grand, who will achieve the same end result, who would you utilise ?

As in a lot of markets at the moment there is an over load of pilots in the system, so airline management can offer lower wages as there will always be applicants, guys that cannot afford to sit on high horses complaining that the offer is crap (while they are in employment), these other guys have families, mortgages, bills to pay, bank managers to keep happy, all the usual stuff, so they NEED a job and are willing to take anything for an income. As they say ' While you are employed you can always look for alternatives'.

So it seems that some of you would not get out of bed for 4500-5000 a month plus extras, as a contracted pilot because a burger flipper can get that (he wishes, divide that by at least 4). The perks of contracting and having a good accountant can make that amount worth a lot more than having permenant employment and it leaves you in control of your options.

Another point about wages, next time you talk to your engineers ask them what their basic wages are, before London weighting, shift pay, approval pay and overtime for a 40 hour week (burger flipper divided by @3). You definitely would not be getting out of bed for that amount - and you would not need to, without them.

As in most industries these days, the accountants rule the roost, with bottom line figures and payments to share holders taking priority, gone are the days of elitist pilots, they are now employees, just like the rest, there to do a job and justifying the amount they are getting paid.

Sorry if this upsets a few people, but as an 'unregistered ' unemployed, because of small pension and part time working wife, not entitled to benefits, aircraft mechanic, that some think they are worth more than is offered, try unemployment for real, then see if these offers seem so low.

On most of the above I can broadly agree with you except . . . . . if you had sat alongside enough of them for long enough , you would not make the assertion that a 250-300hr pilot will "achieve the same end result" as a 5000hr one.

Some days, on some flights, with some Capt's alongside him Yes, but is by no means a foregone conclusion trust me :=

If you are sat in the back, who would you prefer to become your Capt if the old sod in the left pegs it ? answer that one honestly and you dissprove your argument, but of course, as you say, management don't care as long as the legalities are OK, but the public (if they educated themselves) SHOULD :eek:

Thanks, I did! Very nice lazy Sunday morning it was too. Now to business...

GW I think you misunderstand my point. For a start, I don't know what you're alluding to with your the first two quotes in your post (quoting me then you.) I've been following the thread since the beginning, since the issues that were first being discussed stand to affect people like me a great deal.

Easy, or lazy? This is the big problem I have. It might seem like a technicality or an easy abbreviation to you, but in reality it leads confuses one group of pilots with another and leads to misunderstanding and hostility where it is unwarranted and unnecessary. Paying to fly - i.e. a scheme such as the J Curd one which has appeared in more than one guise - where the candidate is paying money to be there, is completely different from the CTC Cadet scheme where training has been paid for and the cadet receives payment for their services once flying for the airline. And people still see the low-houred pilot and lump them all together as "P2F cadets", despite the obvious differences.

The reason the easyJet TCs want to call it something else is because it IS different. As I have said before, those coming through from the CTC Cadet course are the same people who, before things were changed drastically by management, would have come out, done their 6 months' apprenticeship and then been given a full-time contract of employment, on the same T&Cs as everyone else, like those before them. By the time the changes were made, and they had to accept employment on a contractor basis, it was too late for them to pull out of the course. The alternative was to go bankrupt. As I said, the contractor pay is awful, but they are still being paid, they are not paying to be there. Can you see the difference?

Or maybe I should put it this way, as a question. GW, when you hear/use the term "P2F cadet", what is your understanding of their terms and conditions, and the route they took into the airline? What exactly are you referring to using that term?

You're (again) lumping together three or four different groups of pilots, and in some cases I would agree with you where as in others I would disagree.

I would be more concerned, as an F/O, about flying with short-term contractors in the left seat, who won't be company-minded, won't bother to learn the OMs properly, and will fly "their way". The very people this thread was about in the first place. If you ask me, this is a much bigger risk to the travelling public than a low-hour F/O flying with an experienced captain.

On the latter point, I agree with you. I've been trying to ram home the cadets' situation to people for ages because I could see what was coming (i.e. it eventually affecting people up the chain) but the general level of apathy has been astounding. Finally, now it's affecting others, eyes are slowly beginning to open.

For what it's worth, as a BALPA member, I tried to seek their help when I was affected as a low-hour cadet F/O a few years back, and BALPA wasn't really interested (in fact I found the eventual response from one of the reps insulting.)

Please don't patronise me. Do you think I don't know this already?! I can assure you my glasses are not in the slightest bit 'orange-tinted'. I'd love to explain in more detail, but to do so might give clues as to my identity and I'd rather stay anonymous. The point you made before signing off, I wholly agree with. One day I'll hopefully be a 5000hr pilot and I'd be horrified if I was sitting around unemployed while the only route in was as a 250hr "cadet".

I repeat, my only problem is with the fact you demonise the CTC Cadets, erroneously labelling them "P2F", when in reality there is a world of difference between paying for training and paying to actually fly 'on the line'.

Yes, absolutely. I deplore the pay rate the CTC ex-cadet FlexiCrew F/Os are having to accept. I was referring to the route they took - i.e. fATPL course, contribute to type rating, join as a contractor rather than a full-time employee.

'answer that one honestly and you dissprove your argument, but of course, as you say, management don't care as long as the legalities are OK, but the public'

Actually you proved my reasoning when you mention 'management' and not crew, same as I did when writing.The legalities are met, on the cheap, bean counters happy.

I understand what you mean when things go 'tits' you need a proficent stand in, and as 'walk on freight' I understand that more than 99% of fellow travellers who would never give this situation a second thought. After all to them it is a bus that flies and two drivers up front, more than enough to get us to the destination and things only happen to other people don't they).

Hi Zippy

Im always happy to be put in my place with regards to definitions :ok: I did ask NSF a while back to explain the difference, but he declined.

With regards to the CTC thing. My assumption, which is where we may have the greatest level of misunderstanding, is that these guys were P2F people in the past, who have completed their TR and done their P2F 150-300 hours already...... last summer or whenever.... and have since been in a pool waiting for contract work or a permanent job and these are the guys that are going to be on contract this year.

MY point....... and this is not directed at any company in particular......... is that P2F schemes do exist. If they exist in ANY company, i think there is a degradation of Safety in that company. And once one company gets away with it, others follow. And being somewhat cynical i bet that airlines that have to make redundancies do so with a little over 6 months away from when they need to start ramping up again for the summer season so they can recruit contractors. ( I stand to be corrected on employment law)

One of the problems you/easy will always have is that J CRUD appears to be an Easy TC and therefore, if it looks like s**t and it smells like s**t, people are always going to interpret it as s**t. After all his little side line business is obviously VERY familiar with the P2F cancer as has been alluded to by NSF in a previous post

All of these schemes have been designed to get inexperienced and therefore cheaper people into the cockpit and now it looks as though contractors are going to be used as Captains instead of promoting within......(again, please correct me) and no one seems to give a stuff about the safety implications.

Apologies, i didnt mean it to come across like that.......... its was more a result of the frustration i feel when people only seem to want to get involved when it affects them...... not those below them.... and again thats not pointed at you.... more of a general comment.

Presumably, you must have a very flat head :ugh: :ok:

Anyway i'll PM you as hopefully you can help me with something loosly related.

Regards :ok:

GW

Whilst not really a comment on MY personal views here, I can't believe noone has used the opportunity to highlight the similarities between the current "frantic discussion, lack of action" and the life of Brian, by Monty Python....
Back on topic. GW, I think you're partially right...there are undoubtedly some waiting on contracts at easy who did previously do the P2F scheme. However, my take on the current group [of F/Os] under discussion is that these are the latest CTC or Oxford guys, who have been offered a contract to fly, ex-abinitio training, on terrible terms after funding their type rating and a portion of their initial line training.
The deal is terrible, truly awful, but they are at least being PAID to fly. Just not much. Therein lies the distinction.

However the one thing I have to take umbridge at is this concept that anyone who is unemployed on x thousand hours MUST be employed before any low hour pilot. I don't think there's many of us low hour guys that would think we're anything more than past the point of being a complete beginner, but at the same time there's plenty, PLENTY of experienced guys out there that simply should not be allowed anywhere near a commercial aircraft. Any business needs a constant stream of workers at the differing stages to ensure smooth continuity.

If low hour guys and girls are REALLY a problem in terms of capability, then change the sodding regs. MAKE it 800 hours or whatever before you can fly commercially. Don't whinge that they're not capable...After all every single grizzled old 20000+ hour captain out there once had only 250 hours in their logbook. Perhaps the experience of the subsequent 19750+ hours has shown just how little they knew at 250, but remember that you were once there as well...

Finally...glad to see there's finally some recognition that lack of concern for the 250hrs mob is what allowed p2f to spring up in the first instance...you fail to maintain the foundations of the house (Pyramid!) then and sooner or later the house will come down....

Zippy, I agree your lot have been royally mucked about.

However, CTC cadets chose to get involved and were SOLD a product. The prize was a full time job with EZY - but only after LST and 6 months line training (the "pay" was some £6k paid back out of your original investment). Some of you had debts nearing £120k after CTC approved training and living expenses.

Others were let go after the 6 months and worked bar/burger flipping jobs. Then when another Gatwick based A320 airline showed interest, CTC blocked movement so they could "employ" you for another 6 months on minimal wages with EZY.

This is as much P2F as anything else on the market. Only worse - you can't apply for other jobs because you have a CTC contract!

Here then is the new "self improver"/"hour builder" route except it costs x5 more than the old CAA 700h licence and ends with a mafia style "job".

Lack of Flying currency creates a greater dependency on the P1. The P1 (even a contract one) is the person ultimately responsible for the flight - not the FO.


Acmech - as one who has worked as an engineer, and been unemployed several times I still think folk are right to fight for better Ts&Cs. Why should experienced folk be overlooked from a safety standpoint (e.g: Over a hundred UK based Boeing pilots from Globespan, TUifly etc).

Some things require more moral fibre. Taking any old job (and I've worked as a welder and in other low paid jobs) is survival but it isn't the only issue - professionalism requires encouragement.

Lewis Hamilton may in many eyes be a youngster but he started his apprenticeship in 1993 in karting. He did not start driving F1 cars till 2007. If F1 P2D were available do you think he'd be as good a driver at age 16? I doubt it.

As for requiring at least 800h to fly commercially - this is now going through congress in the USA and was the case in Europe up until JAR regs in the late 1990s.

Low houred schemes are fairly recent and occurred because of these regs and schools offering their "approved" and very expensive courses. Yes BA had low houred cadets but they took 8+ years to reach command and often started on Turboprop regionals.

Change will come when regulators, insurance companies and the Public wake up to the mess we are in.

I wasn't going to contribute to this but here is what I may know.

This year:

EZY have taken on OAA cadets who are effectively PTF, but then put on a flexicrew contract for the summer.

They have also taken experienced CTC CPs/FOs on, on an hourly rate being paid, not much I know, but being paid nonetheless.

They have also taken on experienced FOs on a contract through Parc, and offered some with full ATPLs and c.1000+ on type permanent contracts of employment from 1st November 2010 with a signed letter of intent.

Only the OAA cadets are PTF/P4T etc.

There may be a light at the end of the tunnel

SinBin
 

Thanks for contributing.

BUT!! In your world, the only light at the end of the Tunnel will be a Train. This is because if you think that anything that ezy have offered anyone this year is an improvement to anything, then you're nuts!!

Letter of intent? Not worth the paper it's written on I'm afraid. Why not skip the intentions, and offer a fulltime job right now?

I can give you 8 letters of intent here and now if you like.

P.I.S.S.T.A.K.E.:mad:

I completely agree! I'm only reporting!

angelorange, I'm not disputing what you say about being sold the CTC 'product', etc. I was in that same boat, over 4 years ago now. I just want people to be clear about the distinction between the people who've come down that route and those that are literally paying to sit where they are sitting (the real "P2F", not the generalisation of "P2F" being made quite often on these forums). That was all.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with CTC blocking movement to another Gatwick-based airline. If you're referring to EI, a fair few ex-cadets did go there, most of them having being let go by Monarch at the end of 2008, and also a few that had done their 6 months with EZY. CTC didn't block that route, in fact they were more than happy to see the cadets 'placed'.

wow... and i though £7.94 per hour was a good wage for groundhandling. im in the wrong job! :ouch:

...all this rubbi$h for a lousy paid, 5-months contract....:ugh:
...did I miss something...:confused:
...do all companies behave like this "airline", or is this just the outcome of an so-called "island-tantrum"...:confused:
...may be they have a big HR or "resourcing" department, and obviously plenty of manpower surplus, which have both to show that they are very, very, very essential depts. otherwise they would handle it more pragmatic, like all other real airlines.

...should I have a laugh...:yuk:

you're right. all this bloody assesment for a mere 5 months contract.

Selection
 

Are you suggesting that slection for a 5 month contract should be any different from any other?

Surely an airline must maintain the same standards for everyone! I can only imagine the comments here on pprune that would follow if there was no selection!

If you dont feel that you are up to the task, I suggest that you dont go! I am sure that someone, somewhere in the world will welcome the opportunity to have you fly their aircraft without ever having looked at you, both for your flying abilities and your personality.

There is always the last resort, if you dont agree with something, dont do it! I believe this contract is something voluntary, I do not believe that anyone is holding a gun to your head forcing you to go!

highflyer: obviously you dont have any clue about contract-business. So better go back, and be very lucky about your permanent position and dont comment contract-business.
contract-business is extremly hard business and its nothing for milksops.